At what level can a wizard beat a fighter in melee?

[GoC]

What's the first level at which a wizard can defeat an equivalent level fighter in melee combat?
What about cleric vs fighter? Or druid?

The wizard gets 5mins of buffing time.

[Isomenes]

What's the first level at which a wizard can defeat an equivalent level fighter?
What about cleric vs fighter? Or druid?

I'm guessing you mean a straight-on swordfight rather than using spells. If you allow transformation, then I imagine an 11th-level wizard could theoretically go toe-to-toe with a fighter. But despite the full BAB, the wizard would still lack 5 bonus feats that the fighter could use to crush him in any number of nasty melee ways, not to mention 11d6 less HP.

But hey, the dice can sometimes be your mistress...

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm....

Define "melee combat" and also maybe "can defeat". Provided you mean melee with mutual weapon and weapon attacks at close range, and "can defeat" with over 50% chance of winning, I think the fighter wins all three times in core (non-epic).

- Giacomo

[Frosty]

What if we take into account polymorph? then it becomes a lot closer.

[Lighturtle]

What about acid sheat/flame shield?

[AKA_Bait]

I think the fighter wins all three times in core (non-epic).

What if we take into account polymorph? then it becomes a lot closer.

Yeah. It shifts at level 17 at least when the Wizard gets Shapechange. Possibly before that.

[Person_Man]

Level 1: Assuming the Wizard rolls very well and the Fighter rolls very poorly. The Wizard needs to hit the Fighter 2-3 times, and the Fighter needs to miss 2-3 times.

Level 3: Assuming the Wizard rolls modestly well, and the Fighter rolls modestly poorly. Round 1: Wizard casts Grease, immobilizing the Fighter unless he makes a Balance check, which isn't a class Skill but is subject to Armor Check penalties. Round 2: Wizard casts Summon Monster II, creating 1d3 enemies that attack on the round he casts it. By Round 3, the Fighter should be dead from the second round of the monsters' attacks. If he isn't, the Wizard casts Scorching Ray to finish him off.

Level 5: Wizard simply needs to win Initiative. Casts Fly or Invisibility. Moves away to a safe distance. Summons monsters to attack Fighter until he is dead.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Level 1: Assuming the Wizard rolls very well and the Fighter rolls very poorly. The Wizard needs to hit the Fighter 2-3 times, and the Fighter needs to miss 2-3 times.

The wizard has to be very unlucky to lose even at level 1... assuming he has sold his spell book and bought attack dogs for the money that is.

[GoC]

Hmmm....

Define "melee combat" and also maybe "can defeat". Provided you mean melee with mutual weapon and weapon attacks at close range, and "can defeat" with over 50% chance of winning, I think the fighter wins all three times in core (non-epic).

- Giacomo

Yep, that's what I meant. Touch range spells are ok too though.

Don't write off the wizard that quickly though.
At level 5 he can have AC 26, 10+3(dex from Bite of the wererat)+1(haste)+6(greater mage armor)+4(shield)+3(natural armor).
And his attack pattern is:
Thunderlance +11 piercing 3d6+8 (20/x3) with a 15ft reach

Frosty:Yeah, polymorph's fine.

Person Man: That's not melee combat.

I'm trying to find the lowest level at which the wizard/druid/cleric can beat the poor fighter at his own game.

[blue_fenix]

In melee? A wizard would have to be polymorphed, or at least have a lot of buffs on. It seems somewhat unlikely. Cleric, of course, wins as soon as he gets Divine Power. Druid wins from 5 on, thanks to wild shape + animal companion.

On the other hand, who needs melee?
Fly+Wind Wall+Offensive spell of your choice = All non-casters are screwed.

[Frosty]

It really depends on howmany rounds the wizard has to buff.

[wormwood]

GoC said 5 minutes to buff... which means as long as he wants. That makes it a LOT easier on the wizard. Of course, I think GoC also answered his own question with his last post... around level 5.

[Serenity]

It's the cleric and druid who outshine the fighter in melee, not the wizard--the cleric with permanent metamagic'd buffs, the druid with his animal companion and Wild Shape. The wizard doesn't do melee well at all. The problem with wizards is that, played right, they can almost eliminate the need for melee entirely.

[Indon]

Cleric, of course, wins as soon as he gets Divine Power.

I'm not so sure. By then, the Fighter is quite a few combat feats over the Cleric, which as noted can indeed be used to great effect.

Divine Power evens out the to-hit, but the Fighter still has the feats, and one more HP per level.

Druid wins from 5 on, thanks to wild shape + animal companion.

Wild Shape makes it very likely, since the Druid can use forms to compensate for both to-hit/damage and health deficiencies, and the animal companion can help to compensate for the tactical and power advantage of multiple feats. I'd say that depending on the level (and thus the equal-HD Wild Shape forms availible) the Druid could tie or fall behind.

On the other hand, who needs melee?
Fly+Wind Wall+Offensive spell of your choice = All non-casters are screwed.

This is why the fighter is weak against spellcasters. The Fighter can beat up spellcasters all day in melee, even the Cleric and, less certainly, the Druid.

But the spellcasters can choose not to be subject to melee.

[GoC]

GoC said 5 minutes to buff... which means as long as he wants. That makes it a LOT easier on the wizard. Of course, I think GoC also answered his own question with his last post... around level 5.

There's stll the minimum level for clerics and druids. I'm not even sure that the 5th level wizard wins and even then at 6th level the fighter might catch up.

[PirateMonk]

one more HP per level.

No, actually.

Divine Power
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.

[F.L.]

Level 1. The wizard can outgrapple the fighter, and casts babau slime. Death in 2-3 rds.

[Iku Rex]

By level three the wizard should be winning most of the time. It depends on the build of course.

[Iku Rex]

Level 1. The wizard can outgrapple the fighter,...

How?

filler

[GoC]

Level 1. The wizard can outgrapple the fighter,

Umm...
how?

Iku Rex: What spells would you use?

[Chronos]

Druid wins from 5 on, thanks to wild shape + animal companion.

Why wait until 5? Even at first level, and even without cheesy companions like Fleshrakers, an animal companion by itself is a fair challenge for a fighter. Wolf plus druid versus fighter isn't a foregone conclusion, but it definitely favors the druid.

Divine Power evens out the to-hit, but the Fighter still has the feats, and one more HP per level.

Divine Power also evens out the HP, assuming both have the same constitution bonus. The fighter also likely has better weapons, but the cleric has other buffs besides Divine Power (Divine Favor, Aid, Bear's Endurance, and Greater Magic Weapon all come to mind). And a couple of levels later, when Righteous Might comes into play, it's all over.

[Frosty]

GoC: A level 1 wizard can cast Enlarge Person for a +4 to grapple. This is why he can beat the fighter in grappling.

[GoC]

Chronos:You're forgetting the fighter's magic items. The cleric isn't going to have a +2 flaming sword or a +4 amulet of health while the fighter is.

Frosty:But the fighter probably has +8 more strength than the wizard and the wizard doesn't have improved grapple. These two combined make grappling pretty impractical, especialy as the 1st level wizard goes unconcious with one hit.

[Tokiko Mima]

What's the first level at which a wizard can defeat an equivalent level fighter?
What about cleric vs fighter? Or druid?

Not sure on the exactly level where they would defeat an same level fighter in MELEE, but a wizard at level one can take down multiple fighters with a low chance of failure with one sleep spell. I'm sure later on with the appropriate buffs it could be done, but the wizard isn't really meant for melee.

Clerics would be level 1. Clerics can heal and fight almost as well as a fighter right out the door.

Druids... I would say the moment they get Wildshape and Natural Spell.

[Felius]

You're forgetting the fighter's magic. The cleric isn't going to have a +2 flaming sword or a +4 amulet of health while the fighter is.

Huh? Why the cleric won't have it. They actually should have MORE magical gadgets as they don't need to spend on weapon thanks to greater magical weapon.

[Solo]

You're forgetting the fighter's magic. The cleric isn't going to have a +2 flaming sword or a +4 amulet of health while the fighter is.

Instead, the Cleric casts Bear's Endurance on himself and GMW for his weapon because the Cleric gets spells.

Or else he makes a flaming sword and Amulet of Health for himself.

[Telonius]

I'd say the Fighter is in trouble from Level 3 on.

Level 3 Wizard, assuming INT of at least 14.

Level 0 buffs (4)
Resistance (just for kicks)

Level 1 buffs (2+1)
Enlarge Person
True Strike
Shield

Level 2 buffs (1+1)
Mirror Image
Blur


The Fighter has a 20% chance to miss the Wizard entirely from Blur. If he "hits," he has a chance of hitting an image instead; minimum 3 images (25% chance of hitting you), maximum 6 (14% chance of hitting you). You, on the other hand, are Enlarged (+2 STR, but -1 to hit). You hit just as often, but hit harder when you do. The first hit is nearly automatic. Assuming a Quarterstaff, he does d8+STR damage at the first attack.

EDIT: Not sure on the number of images now that I look at it ... would that be 3 and 6, or 2 and 5? Still, another chance of missing.

[PirateMonk]

Chronos:You're forgetting the fighter's magic items. The cleric isn't going to have a +2 flaming sword or a +4 amulet of health while the fighter is.

Frosty:But the fighter probably has +8 more strength than the wizard and the wizard doesn't have improved grapple. These two combined make grappling pretty impractical, especialy as the 1st level wizard goes unconcious with one hit.

Why? If your entire build is based around grappling a fighter at level one, you can have a high strength and take Improved Grapple, if they're human.

[Frosty]

And also FLAWS. don't forget those.

[Indon]

At level 5 he can have AC 26, 10+3(dex from Bite of the wererat)+1(haste)+6(greater mage armor)+4(shield)+3(natural armor).
And his attack pattern is:
Thunderlance +11 piercing 3d6+8 (20/x3) with a 15ft reach

Hmm, it's indeed not until level 6 that the Fighter can get Shock Trooper, allowing himself to deal significant charge damage in the first round, so this is a good time to catch the Fighter off-guard.

Let's say we have a Human Fighter (because a feat is better than 2 strength or stamina, let's face it) with, hmm...

Mikey McDueler, level 5 Fighter.

Str:17 (Lv4), Dex: 12, Con:14, Int:13, Wis/Cha: Immaterial.

Feats-
Human: Power Attack
Lv1:Combat Expertise
Fighter1:Weapon Focus - Big 2-handed weapon (Greatsword? The one that does 2d6 damage, I'm pretty sure there's one that does that much)
Fighter 2:Dodge! I'm short on ideas here.
Lv3:???
Fighter4:Weapon Specialization - Big 2-handed weapon

Let's assume:
At level 5, Mikey's using a +1 sword which he can do 2d6+6 (4 strength, 1 Enhancement, 1 Feat)
with, hitting at +9 (5 BAB, 3 Strength, 1 Feat).
His AC is 21 (10 Base, 8 Full Plate, 1 Dex, 1 Shield for a buckler, 1 Dodge).
If he has enough money for an enchanted full plate or shield, then that puts him at 23 with +1 for both.

This is followed by his average HP, which is 36 (10 at first level, 6.5 at each level after), probably much more than our Wizard and enough to take a couple hits.

Mikey looks like he's at a disadvantage, here. He could use Power Attack to even the odds somewhat, bringing him up to attacking a 2d6+16 at +4. So at this point he needs a natural 20 to hit... so he uses Expertise for 5 as well, raising his AC to 26 (28 with +1 armor and shield). But since he can't get the Wizard to need a natural 20 as well, he's at a big disadvantage which his HP advantage probably can't overcome.

Mikey could use some better feat suggestions, though, which might make the difference.

Edit:

GoC: A level 1 wizard can cast Enlarge Person for a +4 to grapple. This is why he can beat the fighter in grappling.

At level 1, the Wizard has a good chance of dying before he can make a touch attack against AC 11, suffering from a -1 to hit from being large size. Meanwhile the Fighter gets free to-hit/damage against him.

Edit again: and can probably kill the Wizard in one hit, as Max HP for a level 1 Wizard with 18 con is 8, less than a fighter with a Falchion and 16 Str deals on average (9).