Super beginner monk/unarmed fighting questions

[2xSlick]

Being extremely new to D & D outside of the Neverwinter Nights series, I joined a group with a few friends to try my hand at the game. I’ve played a power attacking fighter in a previous game so I have some idea about the system. The problem is I’m thinking about making a monk and the way the game handles unarmed strikes by monks has me scratching my head. The fact that the DMG has the manual also makes it hard for me to look this stuff up. Here are my questions in order of difficulty:

1. Can a monk wear guantlets? I would believe the answer is yes since in the weapons table they are listed under unarmed instead of light melee weapons. If this is a no then monk’s out the window for my great punching machine.

2. A monk loses flurry when wearing light armor or above. Does wearing armor affect his unarmed weapon damage as well? Could he wear a mithral chain shirt? If not, could I enchant clothes that give no armor bonus? Like could I wear a +5 denim suit?

3. What the heck does it mean that a monk’s fists are treated as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons? The description of natural weapons says that other parts of a critter can attack but doesn’t allow for iterative attacks. The description of manufactured weapons allows the bonus hits. I take it this just means a monk can make iterative attacks with any part of his body but the way the two types of weapons exclude each other has me scratching my head.

4. Flurry + Two weapon fighting. Okay, here’s the real kicker. Are these two feats mutually exclusive? For instance. Lets say I have a quarter staff, two weapon fighting feat, and the basic flurry. When I full attack at level 4, I can either choose to :
A) Do a regular full attack and wield the staff in two hands for the 1.5 str bonus.
B) Attack with both ends of the staff at -2 with the main hand receiving 1 str bonus and ½ str in the off hand.
C) Choose not to flurry, drop the staff and full round attack with my fists using two weapon fighting at -2. Main hand does 1 str bonus, off hand at ½ str. If I had multi attack I could hang onto the staff and kick with both legs at -2 with a main leg and an off leg.
D) Flurry with either ends of the staff and/or unarmed strike at -2 hit. Either end of the weapon or my unarmed strike are done at 1 str bonus.
E) I can not flurry AND get an off hand attack at -4.
I think that’s correct but again I’m not sure.

My biggest problem with an unarmed monk is the difficulty in using it’s version of unarmed strike. I’m actually considering making a non monk unarmed fighter. Since I can’t power attack with my fists, I was wondering if I could make a shield-carrying, full plate-wearing, BBEG-punching fighter. Any ideas how to make a non monk unarmed fighter viable? I’m not sure what books my DMG has access to outside of core. Definitely nothing from Dragon Magazine. I also want to stay away from focusing on grappling. I want to punch em, not hug em.

Of course I could make an unarmed, strength-based ranger, take the two-weapon feats, and name him Walker Texas.

[Curmudgeon]

1) A Monk can wear gauntlets, but shouldn't. Monks have no proficiency with either armor or weapon gauntlets (such as the spiked variety), and 3.5 rules have removed the 3.0 options for adding weapon features to armor gauntlets. Also, only part of the Monk's unarmed strike is delivered via fists. The Monk should avoid gauntlets.

2) Your answer here is Bracers of Armor, which aren't actually armor, so a Monk can use them without worry.

3) This means that both Magic Weapon and Magic Fang spells will enhance the Monk's unarmed strike. It also makes the Monk eligible for Improved Natural Attack.

4) Flurry and TWF aren't mutually exclusive. You should check out the FAQ here.

If you want an unarmed fighter without Monk levels, start with a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, page 101). You'll like it. Next I'd go for either Snap Kick or Superior Unarmed Strike (but only if you'll never take any actual Monk levels).

[blue_fenix]

Many DM's allow monks to use gauntlets and have it count as unarmed strike, and some will allow armor enhancement on a "monk robe" that doesn't count as armor. Both of these are intended to counter the fact that monk's get screwed by the wealth by level compared to how much their equipment costs.

Unarmed strike allows you to do iterative attacks. The manufactured/natural contradiction can be worked out like this: if, for a particular rule, it would be better for it to be manufactured, it is. If for a particular rule, it would be better for it to be natural, it is.

Flurry allows you two bonus attacks at full BAB regardless of whether you TWF. If you flurry in the same round that you TWF, you apply both the -2 from TWF and any penalty from flurry to all your attacks that round. So a Monk 20 flurrying with TWF gets three attacks with each hand at 13/8/3 BAB plus two more attacks at 13, made with the hand of his choice, one of each or both with one.

It is perfectly valid to create a Fighter who uses armor, a shield, and a gauntlet. He could take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike (from Tome of Battle IIRC) to get higher damage. It's non-optimal, but certainly viable.

[horseboy]

Just to say you were warned: "IT'S A TRAP!"

[Freelance Henchman]

Ironically Monks in the CRPGs are pretty damn powerful, in contrast of the forum dweller's opinion of Monks in the pen&paper game. Not sure if it's because items in Neverwinter Nights etc. are Monty Haul Specials, or that casters in games can't fly and such, but from what I've seen Monks do very well on persistent worlds and such.

[lord_khaine]

dont listen to that, investing a feat in the use of a gauntlet is proberly the smartest thing a monk can do, if he wants to use his unarmed attacks, and get some decent enchants on it to a fair price.
(since 3.5 hasnt removed the option for putting weapon enchants on a gauntlet)

to question 2, armor is out of the question, try to get along on mage armor potions until you can afford some decent bracers in your budget.

[Grynning]

I'm a big fan of unarmed fighter types, unfortunately they are a bit hard to pull off in the current D&D system. Honestly, the best base class to try it with is the Psychic Warrior, as their powers make up for the lack of mobility and single attack damage that most melee-ers suffer from (you will learn that you rarely actually get to full attack, enemies move around and make you chase them unless they're really dumb or really tough). Plus they can wear armor.
If you play a monk, you should always consider Monk-based PrC's. While a lot of high-level monk abilities sound cool, they are generally of limited usefulness (like quivering palm, tongue of the sun and moon, etc.). When you get into higher levels, look closely at any PrC's that are available that advance the AC and unarmed damage, but that may offer better abilities.

[AslanCross]

Swordsage does it pretty well too, since many martial strikes are standard actions. Counters and boosts give options too. Swordsage makes more use of Wisdom as well, using it as an AC bonus (that stacks with light armor) and as a bonus to damage with Discipline Focus. And I'm sure a Psychic Warrior/Swordsage would be pretty awesome.

[playswithfire]

dont listen to that, investing a feat in the use of a gauntlet is proberly the smartest thing a monk can do, if he wants to use his unarmed attacks, and get some decent enchants on it to a fair price.
(since 3.5 hasnt removed the option for putting weapon enchants on a gauntlet)

But since gauntlets aren't a monk weapon, you can't flurry with them, correct? In either case, another option is the necklace of natural attacks from Savage Species. Costs (600+enchantment costs) * number of natural attacks, so for a monk to have 2 +1 shock unarmed strikes, it'd be 17,200; you make your fists masterwork for 600 gp each and then enchant as you like, but you have to enchant both the same way.

Swordsages are also a lot of fun.

[Telonius]

1. A monk can use any weapon he wants. He's just not proficient with anything but the things that are listed for him, and can only flurry with the special Monk weapons. Gauntlets are not on either list. He needs a feat to use the gauntlet without the nonproficiency penalty.

2. The monk still has its unarmed damage even when armored. A monk loses the 2nd-level Evasion ability if in Medium (or heavier) armor. It loses fast movement, flurry of blows, Wisdom AC bonus, and extra AC bonus (the one at 5th, 10th, etc). As mentioned before, Bracers of Armor are the most common way to improve a Monk's AC. Dexterity and Wisdom enhancers also improve the AC.

3 and 4: What Curmudgeon said.

My biggest problem with an unarmed monk is the difficulty in using it’s version of unarmed strike. I’m actually considering making a non monk unarmed fighter. Since I can’t power attack with my fists, I was wondering if I could make a shield-carrying, full plate-wearing, BBEG-punching fighter. Any ideas how to make a non monk unarmed fighter viable? I’m not sure what books my DMG has access to outside of core. Definitely nothing from Dragon Magazine. I also want to stay away from focusing on grappling. I want to punch em, not hug em.

Actually, you can power attack with your fists.

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

(Emphasis added). So yes, you can substitute attack for damage on a one-to-one basis. Some DMs have been known to allow Monks to use a two-handed attack (the "Polish Hammer") to get a two-to-one return, so check with your DM to see if this will be allowed.

[Grynning]

Some DMs have been known to allow Monks to use a two-handed attack (the "Polish Hammer") to get a two-to-one return, so check with your DM to see if this will be allowed.

Call it by its proper name! It's the Shatner Fist!
It also has the Bane quality versus Klingons. Those Klingon bastards killed your son.

[Person_Man]

First, I highly suggest that you read the official FAQ. It covers a lot of important Monk questions.

1. Can a monk wear guantlets?

Yes. However he takes the normal penalties for non-proficiency, and gauntlets cannot be used with Flurry of Blows. Flurry of Blows only works with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and a few other weapons from the expansion books).

2. A monk loses flurry when wearing light armor or above. Does wearing armor affect his unarmed weapon damage as well? Could he wear a mithral chain shirt? If not, could I enchant clothes that give no armor bonus? Like could I wear a +5 denim suit?

When wearing any armor, a Monk loses flurry. His unarmed damage is not effected. You can enchant any worn object with an armor bonus, subject to the custom magic item rules. It's costs would be similar to bracers of armor.

3. What the heck does it mean that a monk’s fists are treated as both manufactured weapons and natural weapons?

Certain feats, spells, and class abilities can only be used with certain types of weapons. A Monks unarmed strike counts as both. This is a subtle but important distinction, because it allows the Monk to take advantage of certain build choices that aren't normally available for other classs.

4. Flurry + Two weapon fighting. Okay, here’s the real kicker. Are these two feats mutually exclusive?

Flurry of Blows isn't a feat. It's a class ability.

You can use each of them separately or together, as long as you follow all of the rules that pertain to each of them. If you use them together, the penalties are cumulative, and apply to all attacks that round.

Any ideas how to make a non monk unarmed fighter viable?

That depends on what books you have available. Its certainly possible to make non-Monk unarmed builds. But if you just use core rules (Player's Handbook, DMG, Monster Manual) then unarmed builds are quite weak. With the right expansion books, a Monk/Psychic Warrior gets 12d8 damage per hit by mid levels. But using such a build in your game is ill advised unless everyone else in your party optimizes their character as well.

[KillianHawkeye]

4. Flurry + Two weapon fighting. Okay, here’s the real kicker. Are these two feats mutually exclusive? For instance. Lets say I have a quarter staff, two weapon fighting feat, and the basic flurry. When I full attack at level 4, I can either choose to :
A) Do a regular full attack and wield the staff in two hands for the 1.5 str bonus.
B) Attack with both ends of the staff at -2 with the main hand receiving 1 str bonus and ½ str in the off hand.
C) Choose not to flurry, drop the staff and full round attack with my fists using two weapon fighting at -2. Main hand does 1 str bonus, off hand at ½ str. If I had multi attack I could hang onto the staff and kick with both legs at -2 with a main leg and an off leg.
D) Flurry with either ends of the staff and/or unarmed strike at -2 hit. Either end of the weapon or my unarmed strike are done at 1 str bonus.
E) I can not flurry AND get an off hand attack at -4.
I think that’s correct but again I’m not sure.

Just to clarify, because I'm not sure you got this entirely right. Let's say you are a 4th level Monk. For the sake of argument, we'll say that you have an 18 Strength (for a +4 bonus). You have a quarterstaff and you have taken the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. On a full attack, you can:

-Make a single attack with either the quarterstaff or your unarmed strike at a +7 attack bonus. You do get 1.5 * your Strength bonus on damage with your quarterstaff.
-Make two attacks with your quarterstaff using Two-Weapon Fighting at +5/+5. Alternatively, you can attack with your quarterstaff and an off-hand unarmed strike (still at +5/+5), or switch them around. Your primary attack gets your full Strength bonus on damage while the off-hand attack gets half.
-Make two attacks using flurry of blows at +5/+5. These attacks can be made with your quarterstaff or your unarmed strike in any order. You get your full Strength bonus on both attacks.
-Make three attacks using flurry of blows and Two-Weapon Fighting at +3/+3/+3. Your first two attacks can be with either weapon and get your full Strength bonus to damage (as normal for flurry of blows), while the third attack can be an off-hand attack (I think with either weapon) that gets half your Strength bonus to damage.

Just to note that your unarmed strike can include punches, kicks, elbow jabs, knees, head butts, etc. Meaning that it does not matter which appendage you are using, you still get the listed number of attacks at the listed damage value. I am not sure what you are saying when you mention Two-Weapon Fighting with the staff and your "main leg" and "off leg", but I don't believe that you qualify for taking the Multiattack feat, since the prerequisites are listed as "Three or more natural weapons."

Hope that helps!

[triforcel]

Just a few quick notes since everything else seems to be covered already.

First of all, as was mentioned already you do not qualify for multiattack. The prerequisite of three or more natural attacks means stuff like claws, bites, tail, and wing attacks. However, if you were to acquire a few more then you would be able to qualify.

Secondly, when two weapon fighting or flurrying with the use of the quarterstaff, you can use it with both hands to get the 1.5*Str bonus and still be able to use your unarmed strikes.

Finally, whenever a monk uses his unarmed strike, he always applies at least his full strength bonus to damage, even when two weapon fighting.

[Theli]

Secondly, when two weapon fighting or flurrying with the use of the quarterstaff, you can use it with both hands to get the 1.5*Str bonus and still be able to use your unarmed strikes.

I'm not sure about the veracity of this. By RAW, there doesn't seem to be any allowance made to allow double weapons to be used 2-handed to gain the 1.5*Str, or even 2x Power Attack, bonuses.

I thought you could do this once, too. But it doesn't look likes it's legit without a houserule.

[2xSlick]

Awesome guys, you've all been a huge help. I tell ya it's nice to come home from work and see a page full of useful info :)

When I first read the abilities of the monk, I thought it had too many restrictions on it, but now I see even a small dip in monk would be great for any unarmed fighter. Since I still don't know what extra sources I can use, I've put together a fun little guy with core.
Say hello to Featy McR'U'Kiden The Head Crusher. A light armor-wearing, dual fisted human boxer. Let's hope I get above average rolls.

Lvl 1 - monk 1 - (improved unarmed strike, not sure which bonus monk feat), Two weapon fighting, dodge (human bonus)
Lvl 2 - monk 2 - combat reflexes (monk bonus feat), evasion (monk ability)
Lvl 3 -fighter 1 - finesse, power attack (fighter bonus)
Lvl 4 - ftr 2 - weapon focus - guantlets (ftr bonus)
Lvl 5 - ftr 3 - try not to roll a one for hp
Lvl 6 - ftr 4 - combat expertise, weapon specialization (ftr bonus)
Lvl 7 - ftr 5- this level sucks
Lvl 8 -ftr 6 - improved two weapon fighting (ftr bonus)
Lvl 9 - ftr 7 - mobility
lvl 10 - ftr 8 - spring attack
Lvl 11 - ftr 9 - another bad level
Lvl 12 - ftr 10 - whirlwind, greater two weapon fighting (ftr bonus)
Lvl 13 -ftr 11 - zip
Lvl 14 - ftr 12 - greater weapon focus (ftr bonus)
Lvl 15 -ftr 13 - Greater weapon specialization

What ya think? I forget any must have feats? Sure he's a goofy guy that needs a bit of int and maybe some wis if he ever decides to fight naked. Nowhere near overpowered but I like the idea of a guy sticking his arm out and spinning in a circle to kill those around him. Since I'm wearing armor I won't ever flurry, but I will power attack like mad with both enchanted guantlets. Last real quick question- Can you power attack while whirlwinding? If not, I'll take the improved trip, grapple, sunder feats. Would be satisfying to eventually be able to punch through walls.

Thanks again to everyone for clearing up my interpretation of the rules. Can't wait to kill something with my hands.

[Theli]

You can get weapon focus to unarmed strike... Getting it on gauntlets would be a bit of a waste of the monk dip. (Other than evasion and the monk bonus feats..) 1d3 gauntlet base damage is kinda minor, but if you assume that you're going to get a hell of a lot of elemental enchantments...

[graymachine]

With that build I would recommend investing your skill points you get from Monk heavily in skills that Fighters don't get (Tumble comes to mind.) This will give you an edge in flexibility that Fighters don't normally enjoy. Then I would plan for a Ring of Jump, or Tumble if you can talk it out of your DM.

[marjan]

Secondly, when two weapon fighting or flurrying with the use of the quarterstaff, you can use it with both hands to get the 1.5*Str bonus and still be able to use your unarmed strikes.

No 1.5 str with flurry of blows:

When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands.

I would drop Whirlwind Attack for Improved Trip. If you are using Spring Attack most of the time that means that you won't be using Whirlwind attack. Tripping opponents is good strategy: Trip them, hit them and get away from them. Also note that some feats (like Spring attack) work differently than in NWN2.

[tyckspoon]

I'm not sure about the veracity of this. By RAW, there doesn't seem to be any allowance made to allow double weapons to be used 2-handed to gain the 1.5*Str, or even 2x Power Attack, bonuses.

I thought you could do this once, too. But it doesn't look likes it's legit without a houserule.

It's specified in the 'Double Weapons' section under the Weapons Categories header- See here. Power Attack also refers to it in passing.

[horseboy]

Did you ever see that grappling mage? Now that was sick.

Play what you want to play and enjoy it, just realize you will never be Chuck Norris.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Sounds like what you want to do is multiclass an Intelligence based monk and then take a PRC like the 5 level Shou Disciple PRC in Unapproachable East which is a little prerequisite heavy IMO for the Martial Flurry special or use ToB classes which are nice for dipping.

Rogue - 1*, Monk - 1, Factotum -3, Marshal - 1 (Motivate Aura Intelligence with a decent charisma), Shou Disciple -5 (for martial weapons flurrying)

* If you want a skill monkey and plan to take the Ascetic Rogue feat and carmendine Monk feat and more Rogue levels or class levels that provide Sneak Attack or specials that stack with Sneak Attack otherwise Monk -2 for Evasion and take it up to Monk 3 if planning on taking the Psionic Fist PRC. (Rogue - 3, Ninja - 1, Scout - 1, Assassin - 1 has an effective Sneak Attack of +5D6).

Feats: Ascetic Rogue (Sneak Attack stacks with Unarmed Damage), Carmendine Monk (Int to AC instead of Wisdom), extra Fonts of Inspiration feats.

The Factotum class specials and IPs are pretty cool. Consider taking Iajutsu Focus skill from Oriental Adventures.

[Theli]

It's specified in the 'Double Weapons' section under the Weapons Categories header- See here. Power Attack also refers to it in passing.

Odd... I might've gotten confused when different sized quarterstaffs were discussed...

Thanks for the correction.