Mage, Mutants, or LotFR?

[Woot Spitum]

I'm thinking about getting a new tabletop RPG book/system and I'm having trouble deciding between World of Darkness:Mage, Mutants and Masterminds, and the latest edition of Legend of the Five Rings.

I like the World of Darkness setting, and have had a lot of fun with Werewolf. Mage sounds like a really interesting setting. The downside is that I have heard the magic system is very complex and difficult to master.

Mutants and Masterminds appeals to me because I think a superhero RPG would be a lot of fun to run. It would be a departuree from a lot of the settings I've usually been in as well. What I worry about is that I've heard character creation is difficult and time-consuming, which would make it harder for me to find players.

Legend of the Five Rings is the one I have been considering the longest. I love the detailed fluff the setting has, and I think it would be the easiest one to get players for. My biggest problem is that I'm not entirely sure that I understand the system from my brief skim through the book. I also was disappointed that ninjas do not seem to play a big role in the game.

I'd like to know more about these settings and their systems. Few things are as disappointing as starting to play a new system and finding that it isn't your cup of tea. So I want to ask around a bit before I decide.

So which of these would you reccomend and why? If you love one or more of these systems, why? What do you like/dislike about theses systems?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I can't really speak for Mage (played one game) or Lo5R (zero), but I can say that Mutants & Masterminds is a fun and well-designed system, as well as being very adaptable. Character creation is time consuming, true, because it's an entirely point-based system with a huge number of options, rather than a class/level setup. It pays off in versatility of characters (you can pretty much play any concept imagined by a mostly-sane human), but it's not for everyone.

From what I know of Mage, it's honestly probably about the same amount of work, only with more points (and a better laid-out rulebook).

[Tengu]

The L5K system is actually very simple, it's just written in a slightly convoluted way - basically it's "throw a bucket of d10, took several of them and compare them to the save DC". Oh, and for ninjas, buy the Way of the Scorpion.

[Animefunkmaster]

Avoid Blood Speakers for L5R rpg, its a horrible book. Are you playing the d20 Rokugan?

[mabriss lethe]

I also was disappointed that ninjas do not seem to play a big role in the game.

That's because ninjas "don't exist". They're just a juvenile peasant superstition. At least from the POV of someone from the samurai caste. That being said, there are some excellent materials availible dating all the way back to 1st ed L5R concerning ninjas

The scorpion clan is, for lack of a better term, "ninja" Look at the Bayushi Saboteur school, The Supai advanced school, Shosuro actors...Several others just in the scorpion clan alone. Aside from scorpions, assassins like the Weavers can be found in Way of the Wolf. The Goju ninja (humans who've lost themselves to the Lying Darkness) have undergone several iterations throughout the setting history. There's also a d20/d10 hybrid rulebook simple called Way of the Ninja.

[Talic]

L5R is a pretty good system. Very lethal. VERY lethal.

For optimum results, cross class a Asako Courtier with an Isawa Shugenja. Courtier will allow you to get disgusting knowledge skills, which in turn boost your level, and give you the ability to cast higher level spells. Isawa Shugenja ability lets you use your void points to cast your spells, allowing you to cast spells that you normally wouldn't, due to lower stats.

With enough experience for a second level character, this character can reliably instant cast the highest level spells in the game twice.

In D&D, that's comparable to getting a quickened ninth level spell twice per day, at 4th level.

Examples of spells that fit this description:

Everything melts. Within 10' of you, anyone standing takes a buttload of fire damage, any non-magical weapon melts to nothing before it hits you. Magic weapons get one good swing on you, and then they too, melt to nothing. (no saves, skills, or checks prevent this).

80 foot monster. Pick an element. Make an 80 foot tall elemental. If fire, then it catches things on fire, and heals by walking into the fires it creates. Others have similar nifty abilities.

EDIT: Practitioners of Maho are strong, also, just get a high spellcraft lore (asako courtier will help with this) to mitigate your taint. Maho is strongest when you're focusing on the Earth and Water schools of magic.

[Sebastian]

M&M is a good system, with some change it can work for other setting than super heroic (even if it still work better for high powered, not-exactly realistic settings). Creating characters is slower? well, maybe, but I'd say that is more a necessity to have a clear concept of your character and a good knowledge of the rules to translate it in numbers, if you have those it is not so slow, Sure is worse than pick a race-pick a class-pick a (or two) feat, but it is still faster than creating a D&D character of a comparable level (usually around 10)

[Attilargh]

I got it about a month ago and from what I've read, it's a great game. The dice system is simple to grasp, the setting oozes awesomesauce and it's about samurai. However, calculating the averages of the system is not very easy, and there are no rules for horses in the book.

[Pauwel]

Mutants and Masterminds!

Well, I've never tried L5R and don't like World of Darkness, so I guess I'm biased. Still, M&M is an awesome game; it's amazingly flexible, cinematic, fun and actually fairly balanced system, as long as the players don't deliberately try to break the game and/or the GM is extremely lenient.

Character generation can take a while for those who are unfamiliar with the rules; you also have to read the rules rather closely to avoid interpreting them incorrectly (though that doesn't really matter, as long as the game works for you). Once you do "get" the system, it all feels really natural; I can create a character in 20 minutes, often without even referencing any rulebooks.

Anyway, it's a fantastic system and I command you to buy it now!

[Tengu]

there are no rules for horses in the book.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the Way of the Unicorn.

[Woot Spitum]

So Legend of the Five Rings is simple, with very lethal combat? That might be a nice departure from D&D. How are the melee classes when it comes to combat skills? I'd like it if they have some combat techniques and fighting styles. My biggest complaint about the monk in D&D is that the designers took a character concept that had the potential to use dozens of techniques and fighting styles, and boiled it down to "you hit stuff. a lot." I wouldn't mind if it isn't Tome of Battle-esque and the techniques aren't that powerful, but I think it would be neat flavour.

Mutants and Masterminds sounds cool, but what is the combat system like? D20 based? D10 based? How are powers used? How is the game out of combat?

I'm still waiting for some comments on Mage. Even if they're unfavorable, I'd like to hear what someone else who has played it thinks about the system.

[Attilargh]

So Legend of the Five Rings is simple, with very lethal combat? That might be a nice departure from D&D. How are the melee classes when it comes to combat skills? I'd like it if they have some combat techniques and fighting styles.

Combat is skill-based, so even a courtier can be pretty dangerous with a sword if he decides to put his points into Kenjutsu.

However, the bushi (warrior) schools have special Techniques for each level that provide unique benefits in combat. For example, the Mirumoto family of the Dragon clan teaches their students to fight with two swords without penalty. Then there's a bunch of Katas, or special maneuvers that are open to everyone who meets the prequisites. One increases a warrior's reaction speed in battle at the cost of accuracy and hitting power, for example.

[Tengu]

Oh, and of course we are talking about the original d10 game here, not the d20 "DND in Rokugan" monstrosity.

[Woot Spitum]

Combat is skill-based, so even a courtier can be pretty dangerous with a sword if he decides to put his points into Kenjutsu.

However, the bushi (warrior) schools have special Techniques for each level that provide unique benefits in combat. For example, the Mirumoto family of the Dragon clan teaches their students to fight with two swords without penalty. Then there's a bunch of Katas, or special maneuvers that are open to everyone who meets the prequisites. One increases a warrior's reaction speed in battle at the cost of accuracy and hitting power, for example.

I like the sound of that. How is the magic system? I'd particularly like to know how it balances with melee combat, power-wise.

Oh, and of course we are talking about the original d10 game here, not the d20 "DND in Rokugan" monstrosity.

This is the version I'm considering:

http://www.amazon.com/Roleplaying-Ga...0507041&sr=8-1

[CthulhuM]

I can't speak for M&M or Lo5R, but the new addition of mage is a very fun system. The magic system is much easier to learn and better defined than it was in old WoD, which basically required you to improvise all of your spells. The new system provides a wide variety of premade spells to use, so its much easier to get a handle on what your character can and can't do. It's still very flexible, though, and if you need to the option to create your own spells on the spot is still available.

[Attilargh]

Missed Tengu's post:

I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the Way of the Unicorn.

Isn't that first edition? I'd like third myself. I bet they're in Creatures of Rokugan or something.

[mabriss lethe]

I like the sound of that. How is the magic system? I'd particularly like to know how it balances with melee combat, power-wise.

It's gone through several iterations in the various versions. 1st edition spellcasting was gruesomely over the top. In my groups the shugenja always had a higher average melee kill count than the bushi. Spellcasting in 1st ed was stat+school level to determine the level of the spell. First level spellcasters could cast insanely powerful spells at very early levels. Second edition was toned down a little, spell levels became dependant upon school rank instead of stats. It made things a little less wrong, but spellcasting still tended to end a lot of fights. I'm not really familiar with shugenja in 3E, but from the brief glances I gave it, It seems to be somewhat in line with 2E

Multiclassing in the system is incredibly difficult.

1. Your characters, unless you play ronin, come from a highly competitive collection of schools funded by the most powerful men and women in the empire, The rivalries between clans (even, to some extent, schools among the same clan,) are generally pretty intense. A character owes a certain amount of loyalty to his sensei and school, to seek out other instructors is otften seen as an insult to both your current and prospective teachers. ronin have their own problems.

2. Each type of school requires a singular focus from its students. A samurai could, with some difficulty and much social awkwardness, leave his current bushi school and enroll in another. He wouldn't however, be able to enroll in a shugenja school. There are a handful of very specific bushi-like classes that can cross over to a shugenja school(and vice-versa), but each of them are detailed in full in the books. (the only schools of that nature that spring to mind are the Kuni shugenja school and it's sister school the Kuni Witch hunters. Both are maintained by the same family in the same clan, and even then, there are some very strict prerequisites for multiclassing between them. Shugenja, likewise, might be able to seek instruction from another school of magic, but would find learning the subtle skills of a bushi impossible. (that doesn't mean that a shugenja can't pick up a weapon and kick butt with it. they can, they just don't get any fancy tricks with them.)

[Tengu]

Isn't that first edition? I'd like third myself. I bet they're in Creatures of Rokugan or something.

Ah. I am afraid I am not familiar with the third edition. Do you know what have they changed? I hope they dropped some of the horrible backstory of second edition (naga awakening? The clans going to all-out war? C'mon...).

[deathbyhokie]

It pays off in versatility of characters (you can pretty much play any concept imagined by a mostly-sane human), but it's not for everyone.

As an example of (not quite sane) character creation, I statted out a Nacho Elemental for a M&M game.

I'll add another vote to M&M. It's a wonderful system, you only need one die, and there's alot of things you can do with it. Plus, it's superheroes.

[Woot Spitum]

As an example of (not quite sane) character creation, I statted out a Nacho Elemental for a M&M game.

I'll add another vote to M&M. It's a wonderful system, you only need one die, and there's alot of things you can do with it. Plus, it's superheroes.

What die do you use? I'd also like to know some more details on how combat and superpowers work.

[Sleet]

What die do you use? I'd also like to know some more details on how combat and superpowers work.

M&M is pure d20; damage is passive, and the target has to make a Damage Save or suffer nasty consequences.

(At least, that's how it works in Blue Rose and True 20, which are very similar to M&M.)

[deathbyhokie]

What die do you use? I'd also like to know some more details on how combat and superpowers work.

Just a D20.

As far as powers go: anything you can think of, is in there. Or if it isn't, it's not hard to find something similiar and extrapolate the point cost of the power you want.

In combat, it's less time consuming than D&D (at least with our group), because there's less "Which Die sdo I use". IFthe attacker hits, the defender makes a Toughness save (based off of Constitution and various protection powers).

With powers, for the most part, you point and use. If a save is called for, the difficulty is usually 10 + your power rank. Like I said, they have most any power you can think of. Some of the powers are incredibly specific (Gravity Control) and some are very broad, and you add your own descriptors (Blast)

This also helps to simplify the character creation:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/mnm_hall_of_heroes/

[Nerd-o-rama]

All dice rolls are d20 (except a few d% effects that can be easily done with a d20). Effects with Fort/Ref/Will saving throws are done the same way as in D&D (the target makes a saving throw of d20+their bonus against a static DC). Damaging effects like punching or shooting an energy blast actually work the exact same way: the target (if hit) makes a "Toughness Save" against the Damage DC of the power or weapon that hit him, and if he fails, he gains a Bruise/Injury (depending on whether the damage is lethal or nonlethal), which imposes a cumulative -1 penalty on future Toughness saves until healed. If the target fails by 5 or more, they're Staggered/Disabled, and 10 or more, they're Unconscious/Dying. It's a bizarre hybrid of d20 and White Wolf's Damage Levels, but it seems to work, and makes marginally more sense than HP.

Combat, aside from all that, is pretty similar to D&D. You make an Attack Roll against your oppenent's Defense; or not, if it's something like Mind Control that doesn't require an attack roll. Then effects are resolved via saving throw like I described above. There's a lack of D&D's emphasis on tactical grid-based combat (partly because superheroes tend to move very fast and in three dimensions), but it's still there if you want it. There's also no Full Attacks or Attacks of Opportunity, but there's a lot of other combat options to spice things up and make them more cinematic, like taunting, parrying, and the plethora of things you can do with Powers.

Powers...there's a lot of information on Powers. Pretty much anything ever described in a comic book can be modeled easily, and then some. Or, you can just as easily make a character with no powers that uses spiffy martial arts and fancy equipment to compete with the Capes, ala Batman. Because every attribute of character creation draws from the same pool of points, and excellent balance-testing was done by the publishers, you can make almost any concept you can think of as a competitive character. Character design requires a bit more consideration and priority-balancing since there's no class/level system, but plenty of advice and examples are provided to make sure newbies don't do something stupid in building a character, like forget to account for their Defense or Toughness.

[mabriss lethe]

I hope they dropped some of the horrible backstory of second edition (naga awakening? The clans going to all-out war? C'mon...).

I hope you're being sarcastic. really.

One of the more fascinating aspects of L5R is that the players have a direct hand in the storyline by attending sanctioned CCG and RPG events. The recent game history is so screwy because of all the player interaction with the world. It's been that way since the beginning. You only have your fellow gamers to blame for it.

As for a real life model to gauge how silly something like the clans of rokugan going into all out war, I recommend studying the Three Kindgoms era of Chinese history as well as the Warring States period of feudal Japan.

[Tengu]

I didn't mean that it's implausible, I meant that it's blander. Intrigues, backstabbing and various amounts of rivalry between the clans are much more interesting than armies marching here and there.

[Talic]

Combat is skill-based, so even a courtier can be pretty dangerous with a sword if he decides to put his points into Kenjutsu.

However, the bushi (warrior) schools have special Techniques for each level that provide unique benefits in combat. For example, the Mirumoto family of the Dragon clan teaches their students to fight with two swords without penalty. Then there's a bunch of Katas, or special maneuvers that are open to everyone who meets the prequisites. One increases a warrior's reaction speed in battle at the cost of accuracy and hitting power, for example.

Oddly enough, the strongest base melee class is the Toku Bushi, a minor clan that gets imperial status. They get various Earth righ related bonuses to defense and can be really hard to hit. The average character has something like 40 hp, and takes progressive penalties as you get more injured. The average attack will roll something like 3d10 for damage, discard 1d10 of your choosing. All 10's explode, for an additional roll, added to the original die also. Most fights are over in 2 solid hits.

For a more stealth themed character, the Scorpion Ninjas can eventually move at full speed while hiding with no penalty, are always treated as in full defense (even at the start of combat, before the first action), and get some positively nasty attack options.

Different weapons do different damage, and strength really matters. For instance, if you have a strength of 3 (roll 3 for damage), and are using a katana (roll 3d10 for damage, keep 2), you roll 6d10 and keep 2. If you're using a tetsubo (think a studded club) (roll 0 keep 3), and have a strength of 4 (roll 4, +50% for wielding a tetsubo), you roll 6d10 and keep 3d10. There are ways to modify this, though.

There's a raise system, where before you roll to hit, you can make any number of raises, each increasing your target number to roll by 5. 1 raise gets you an extra rolled damage die, 2 raises is an extra kept damage die. 4 raises is an extra attack. There's more, and they're all outlined together on one table. You roll to hit with the modified number, and if you hit, you get your extra effect.

Note: High level scorpion samurai can choose how many raises to take AFTER they roll to hit, always ensuring that they get the most out of their rolls.

[Woot Spitum]

Oddly enough, the strongest base melee class is the Toku Bushi, a minor clan that gets imperial status. They get various Earth righ related bonuses to defense and can be really hard to hit. The average character has something like 40 hp, and takes progressive penalties as you get more injured. The average attack will roll something like 3d10 for damage, discard 1d10 of your choosing. All 10's explode, for an additional roll, added to the original die also. Most fights are over in 2 solid hits.

For a more stealth themed character, the Scorpion Ninjas can eventually move at full speed while hiding with no penalty, are always treated as in full defense (even at the start of combat, before the first action), and get some positively nasty attack options.

Different weapons do different damage, and strength really matters. For instance, if you have a strength of 3 (roll 3 for damage), and are using a katana (roll 3d10 for damage, keep 2), you roll 6d10 and keep 2. If you're using a tetsubo (think a studded club) (roll 0 keep 3), and have a strength of 4 (roll 4, +50% for wielding a tetsubo), you roll 6d10 and keep 3d10. There are ways to modify this, though.

There's a raise system, where before you roll to hit, you can make any number of raises, each increasing your target number to roll by 5. 1 raise gets you an extra rolled damage die, 2 raises is an extra kept damage die. 4 raises is an extra attack. There's more, and they're all outlined together on one table. You roll to hit with the modified number, and if you hit, you get your extra effect.

Note: High level scorpion samurai can choose how many raises to take AFTER they roll to hit, always ensuring that they get the most out of their rolls.

This sounds fairly complicated. How high is the learning curve for the Legend of the Five Rings system?

Powers...there's a lot of information on Powers. Pretty much anything ever described in a comic book can be modeled easily, and then some. Or, you can just as easily make a character with no powers that uses spiffy martial arts and fancy equipment to compete with the Capes, ala Batman. Because every attribute of character creation draws from the same pool of points, and excellent balance-testing was done by the publishers, you can make almost any concept you can think of as a competitive character. Character design requires a bit more consideration and priority-balancing since there's no class/level system, but plenty of advice and examples are provided to make sure newbies don't do something stupid in building a character, like forget to account for their Defense or Toughness.

So do powers work like D&D skills, or is there a different method for determining whether or not a particular power works (and how effective it is if it does work) at any given time?

Another question I have is how does character advancement work? Is it more like World of Darkness or D&D, or is it something different?

[Attilargh]

This sounds fairly complicated. How high is the learning curve for the Legend of the Five Rings system?

Pretty low, really. Tallic just likes to give rather complicated examples.

Every weapon has a Damage Rating (DR), like katana's 3k2 which stands for "roll 3, keep 2". To this you add your Strength, and you end up with (Str+3)k2. Simple, really. (Bows are a bit more complicated, but still pretty easy once you get the basics.)

I'll edit more stuff in later, I've got to hit class now.

[Talic]

Pretty low, really. Tallic just likes to give rather complicated examples.

Every weapon has a Damage Rating (DR), like katana's 3k2 which stands for "roll 3, keep 2". To this you add your Strength, and you end up with (Str+3)k2. Simple, really. (Bows are a bit more complicated, but still pretty easy once you get the basics.)

I'll edit more stuff in later, I've got to hit class now.

Agreed. I enjoyed cracking that game out, and wanted to point out a few of the more abusable classes.

Each class, from Isawa Shugenja to Asako Courtier to Kakita Duelist has their own set of special abilities. That's pretty in keeping with most RPG systems. The basic combat system is really simple and straightforward, as well as lethal.
The game does favor the survivability of high level characters over low level ones by the added special abilities (less so), and the ability to go first more reliably at higher levels (more so).

The biggest thing you have to think about with L5R is the concept of honor. It is very different from alignment. Many leaders are treated as paragons of virtue by being honorable, even though they are pretty darn evil. Different skills are classified as either High (Honorable), Low (Dishonorable), Battle, and Merchant. Being able to swing a Katana, for instance, is neither honorable or dishonorable, as is skill at bartering (though the direct handling of money is usually viewed as distasteful by the Samurai caste. That's what servants are for). Knowing how to throw a killer tea ceremony is certainly honorable. Knowing how to throw a deadly tea ceremony (via poison use) is certainly dishonorable.

Note that Honor is a concrete and objective force in the game. Having a high honor translates into tangible mechanical benefits. Some clans have less honor (Scorpion being the most clear example). Some have more (Phoenix and Crane are two good examples of this).

In other words... The game rewards you for being honorable... It has a pretty good table allowing for most actions to be classified, and it's set up in a fairly easy to use system that ensures for the most part that honor falls in a bell curve (people with 0 honor and 5 honor are rare, whereas people with 3 honor are common).

[Kojiro Kakita]

Now how strong is the fanbase for l5r RPG.
I play on a free play RPG forum for l5r but I was thinking of trying the book based one. Any place to play a game online.