Advice for creating character for low OR epic lvl, monsterous race, nonmagic campaign

[Runa]

NOTE: Please for the love of [insert deity here], READ the specifics of my request before you respond. I've inexplicably had trouble with this here before, and I'm frustrated with having to re-explain stuff I explained in the opening post, and will possibly not even respond at this point to "advice" that completely ignores stuff I've already said in the OP. OK? I'll even organize it into lists for the sake of convenience! ;)

We are switching out DMs again in a couple of weeks after taking a break from playing over the holidays; the DM in question has stated that the following will be the kind of campaign we'll be trying:

1.) NOT, I repeat, NOT Gestalt.

2.) NO magic, though apparently psionics and things like barbarian's rage ability will be allowed, because they're not, well, magic so much as natural abilities.

3.) [b]Monsterous races only[/i] for PCs - anything in the Monster Manual except for drow (not sure why, but he was very specific about this).

4.) LOW LEVEL. We'll be starting at lvl 1, or at least the equivalent thereof (since at least one person playing wanted to play a half-dragon Wemic, which has some crazy kinda level adjust, though he may end up just playing a Wemic) Either lvl 1, or ECL 21 to battle a ECL 37 villain, depending on what the group agrees to. It sounds like the DM would rather do epic level now.

5.) We work by 3.5 rules.

That was what the DM required for the campaign.

What I like to play as a PC is:

1(b): Character interaction, and roleplaying - I like playing high-CHA characters, basically.

2(b): I'm equally happy playing skill monkeys as I am a melee fighter; I've been most happy playing Paladins (of various types) or Bards, for instance, though I had fun the one time I tried playing a Rogue as well, even though said rogue wouldn't have been what most of you would probably consider "efficient" (worked well for the party makeup though).

My previous characters have included:

*A Fey'Ri Paladin (very liberal DM on that one, heh; I had an interesting character development for that one, and was basically the tank, since I had an AC of 26; so it was fun, I was melee that doubled as a secondary healer, basically),

*An Elistraee-worshiping drow Bardadin of Freedom (AWESOME CRAZY FUN from our thus-far only experiment in Gestalt, I was a little squishy for a Pal, but was a fantastic buffer, a decent skill monkey performer, and came up with some crazy performance ideas that actually got us a lot of XP, since the story there was we were a group of traveling performers),

*A half-elf sorceress (which was annoying to play; NEVER PLAY A HALF-ELF SORCERER ARGH),

*A CG Moon elf Healer (frustrating 'cause of the campaign, but not a horrible character to play in and of itself)

*And a CG Moon Elf rogue with a slight proficiency for archery (like I said, most of you would probably consider it "inefficient" - but was kind of fun once I got the hang of it, and it really worked, believe it or not, because of the unique party dynamic we had in that one).

Not all in that order, though. The Bardadin, for instance, was my most recent character, and the Fey'Ri Pal was my first. ALL of my previous characters were female, as I prefer playing my own gender.

Details on the group:

1 (c): It will be a probably very large party, since we have a large group of players,three other PCs at least, but possibly, even probably up to five others or so, depending on how everyone's schedule works out.

2 (c): At least one person is considering making a barbarian, not sure what everyone else is doing which is frustrating, because as you can see, the games I've enjoyed most were ones where I fit well into the group dynamic so that I had something to contribute a lot of the time (nobody likes sitting and doing nothing while everyone else's doing something, right?). Basically, this means I'll probably need several options, just in case somebody does something weird or the party makeup skews one direction, like everybody else deciding to do melee characters or something.

3(c): I DO NOT have quick/easy access to anything not in the d20SRD site, since none of the books our group has are mine, and I don't see all the others every day. Additionally, it sounds like the DM may want to restrict us mostly to core books, and will almost definitely restrict us to books we already have (which include: PHB, DMG, Complete Warrior, Complete Psionic, Faiths & Pantheons, and I think Complete Adventurer, and the Miniatures Handbook which I'm not sure we'll be using)

4(c): We're all still kind of new to it, we've been playing maybe a year, on and off, but as you all know, it can be a kind of complex game sometimes. So, you may need to explain some things! Please be patient.

One of my first thoughts was Bard because my Bardadin was more Bard than Pal and she was tons of fun (in, you know, a large party whose loose backstory was that they were basically an entertainment troupe), but then I realized in a non-magic campaign if I'm not mistaken, I'm better off playing a rogue with high CHA and skill points in perform, since I won't be able to buff or cast anything, and that way I could get Sneak Attack. :P

But even that is just one option, and since I don't have a copy of the Monster Manual, I still haven't picked a race. So, hence the advice-seeking thread.

Any thoughts?

-Runa

[kamikasei]

When you say "No magic, but psionics is allowed", do you mean psionics from the XPH or SRD, or the spell-like abilities marked "psionics" that some monsters have?

The former, in a no-magic game, will be pretty damn powerful. A goblin or kobold psion could do quite well. A psywar would also be effective.

[PlatinumJester]

Warblade or Swordsage from Tomb of Battle. Warblades are more martial and get access to the most powerful schools and social skills though they have a slight lack of maneuvers. Good AC and HP plus full BAB.

The Swordsage has more maneuvers but has less HP, 3/4 BAB and lower Armour Proficiencies. They do however have more skill points and have Hide + Move Silently, Tumble and Balance as class skills yet lack social skills albeit intimidate and sense motive.

Maneuvers are pretty much spells for mellee characters and some can be very helpful: Concentration instead of Will save anyone?

Dragon Shaman (PHB2) is also pretty versatile. You can be a back up tank, buffer, stealther and most importantly a healer which will probably be missing from your group. They benefit well from a high charisma. They are kind of like a non cheese Cleric.

[Emperor Tippy]

How high a level adjustment/cr can you get away with? There are some very nice epic creatures....

[kamikasei]

*ToB... PHBII...*

Doesn't sound like they have either. Psionics definitely seems like the best power option.

[hewhosaysfish]

Monstrous races, from MM(1), starting at level one?

Goblin, kobold or orc, then. Unless your DM will accept subspecies of player races but I don't think that's what's intended.

Goblins and orcs get a CHA penalty; you like to be the party face...

Kobold, then.

As for class, rogue would -as you say- allow you to have your oodles of social skills, as would Telepath (Wilder has the class skills but not the skill points).
If you went for rogue, people expect you to be very sneaky and be great a dealing with traps and possibly making them (coz kobolds=traps); if you have a suitably massive INT, you might be able to eke out enough skill points to cover everything. Otherwise you'll have to either compromise you social skills (and thus risk compromising your fun) or make it clear to your party-mates that your not that kind of rogue (and risk them being morons).

So my recommendation: kobold telepath, by process of elimination.

[Runa]

First, an update:

The DM has apparently changed his mind and decided he might not to do it as a low-level campaign, rather he (assuming everyone agrees to it) wants to try an epic campaign (which we've never done before), with all of us at ECL 21, and the villain will be ECL 37 or something big and scary like that. (Yeah, with no healing spells. Gee, you think he wants to challenge us? )

So, probably a good idea to prepare for both I guess.

I'll change the opening post to reflect this when I get a chance...

When you say "No magic, but psionics is allowed", do you mean psionics from the XPH or SRD, or the spell-like abilities marked "psionics" that some monsters have?

The former, in a no-magic game, will be pretty damn powerful. A goblin or kobold psion could do quite well. A psywar would also be effective.

It sounds like all psionics will be allowed, but to be really specific any "natural ability" psionics (presumably including the "spell-like abilities marked psionics that some monsters have") were supposed to be allowed, since as I recall, someone was wanting to do a psionic race for their character and asked about how much of their natural abilities he'd be able to keep. I'll have to check with Rob to make sure of how far he's letting us going, but it sounds like it would work.

*ToB... PHBII...*

Doesn't sound like they have either. Psionics definitely seems like the best power option.

I don't know whether or not we have ToB, and I'm almost positive we don't have PHBII though I'll have to check with Rob (since he's bought the most D&D books out of all of us). Now, I can't always recall what book every offshoot class or prestige class is in, but I can confirm that we've played at least one game before where Rob was working towards becoming a Duskblade (I think is what it was called... it had something to do with blades and being able to do more damage to such and such type of creature - I think evil-aligned creatures - with them, as I recall), so we probably have whatever book that's in, if it's one I haven't listed already.

I should have (and when I alter the OP, will) noted that we're playing by 3.5 edition rules, if that helps.

Kobold, then.

As for class, rogue would -as you say- allow you to have your oodles of social skills, as would Telepath (Wilder has the class skills but not the skill points).
If you went for rogue, people expect you to be very sneaky and be great a dealing with traps and possibly making them (coz kobolds=traps); if you have a suitably massive INT, you might be able to eke out enough skill points to cover everything. Otherwise you'll have to either compromise you social skills (and thus risk compromising your fun) or make it clear to your party-mates that your not that kind of rogue (and risk them being morons).

So my recommendation: kobold telepath, by process of elimination.

Which book is that going to be listed in? Doesn't sound like it'd be in PHB, but might be in our Psionics book?

Does sound like a good option, if I could swing it. :)

How high a level adjustment/cr can you get away with? There are some very nice epic creatures....

I know at least one guy in the party wants to play a Wemic or Wemic Half-Dragon (depending on how far the DM allows it). Wemics on their own have a level adjust of 8, as I recall. This may or may not be part of why Rob now is considering doing it as an epic campaign, heh.

If everyone really does agree to do the epic version of the campaign like he's wanting to do now, though, anything that could work well as ECL 21 would be another good option.

-Runa

[kamikasei]

Which book is that going to be listed in? Doesn't sound like it'd be in PHB, but might be in our Psionics book?

"Telepath" is a discipline of psion, like "evoker" is a specialized wizard. If the XPH or the SRD are in play, then you should have access to it.