Can Druids "Fall"?

[Jaguira]

I'm in a adventuring group that's just starting out, but there's a high probability in that in the future the group's LN monk will multi-class to sorcerer and eventually become a Pale Master. Now, I'm playing a NG druid and as everyone knows, druids loathe the undead. Would a druid willingly consorting and traveling with a necromancer be essentially the same as a paladin willingly traveling and consorting with an evil character? If so, what exactly should happen? When is it "okay" for the druid to consort with a necromancer, if ever?

Thanks!

[Green Bean]

Honestly, the Druid's standards of behaviour mainly apply to his/her own actions (and they're pretty vague at that). As long as the Pale Master doesn't somehow manage to persuade you that nature sucks, your powers should be fine. Of course, no one says you have to like the necromancer; you're just not obligated to attack him on sight.

[RTGoodman]

Just remembered this:

Ex-Druids

A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).

So a druid can fall, but it doesn't say anything about that happening just because he happens to be working with a guy that employs undead. Unless you stop revering Nature, then you're fine.

Also, it could be a good roleplaying hook that you try to convince your buddy to turn from his evil ways, and learn to be a cool druid like you!

[Green Bean]

Also, it could be a good roleplaying hook that you try to convince your buddy to turn from his evil ways, and learn to be a cool druid like you!

Of course, if you do that, the necromancer is welcome to claim that that the druid has successfully turned him onto the path of becoming one of nature's guardians himself, and he just needs a few language lessons to make it official.

[UglyPanda]

...and he just needs a few language lessons to make it official.

But then the Druid would fall anyway.

[Serenity]

Hence the winking smilie, I presume.

[Aquillion]

Hence the winking smilie, I presume.

Yes, but it would just need one atonement spell to set it straight (and there wouldn't even be an XP cost, since it was an unwitting violation, which atonement covers for free.)

[Ominous]

But then the Druid would fall anyway.

I think that was the point of the post. He did have the smiley at the end, meaning he was joking.

[UglyPanda]

I thought the previous comment was unintentionally, rather than intentionally humorous.

Wait, if Druids can't teach Non-Druids the language, how do new Druids get trained? Does that mean there is a secret society of fallen Druid teachers? Is there a decreasing number of Druids in the world, until there is only one left whose legacy shall take over the world?

[Falconer]

More likely, I think, is that newly-initiated Druids are taught the language.

[Jaguira]

Of course, if you do that, the necromancer is welcome to claim that that the druid has successfully turned him onto the path of becoming one of nature's guardians himself, and he just needs a few language lessons to make it official.

Actually, knowing the party's monk... She'd probably do just that, because she's a devious little bugger.

I thought the previous comment was unintentionally, rather than intentionally humorous.

Wait, if Druids can't teach Non-Druids the language, how do new Druids get trained? Does that mean there is a secret society of fallen Druid teachers? Is there a decreasing number of Druids in the world, until there is only one left whose legacy shall take over the world?

They probably teach them after they get their first level... Though the thought of a druid-overlord ruling just because he/she knows a language is rather funny.

[Prometheus]

Pfft! Everyone knows how the Druids get their language:

Spoiler

Show

Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon
Or asked the grinning bobcat why he grinned?
Can you sing with all the voices of the mountain?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

[RTGoodman]

Pfft! Everyone knows how the Druids get their language:

Spoiler

Show

Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon
Or asked the grinning bobcat why he grinned?
Can you sing with all the voices of the mountain?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

I'm shocked - I had no idea they still made websites with those annoying embedded MIDIs!


Also, I had another thought - if you do fall and are okay with it, you could just become a blighter (PrC from Complete Divine). It's a druid PrC that lets you wildshape into and summon skeletal animals, and has a very undead and anti-nature theme. Of course, it also sucks as far as I can tell, so that might not be the best idea.

[Collin152]

Pfft! Everyone knows how the Druids get their language:

Spoiler

Show

Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon
Or asked the grinning bobcat why he grinned?
Can you sing with all the voices of the mountain?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

By the generic woodland god! That song is the Druidic themesong!

[mikeejimbo]

I'm shocked - I had no idea they still made websites with those annoying embedded MIDIs!


Also, I had another thought - if you do fall and are okay with it, you could just become a blighter (PrC from Complete Divine). It's a druid PrC that lets you wildshape into and summon skeletal animals, and has a very undead and anti-nature theme. Of course, it also sucks as far as I can tell, so that might not be the best idea.

I would trade effectiveness for a totally awesome ability myself.

[Collin152]

The power to destroy all plants nearby? Can you say, disheveled crops?
I still love the idea of ex-Druids having blighter like ex-Paladins have Blackguard.

[Green Bean]

I thought the previous comment was unintentionally, rather than intentionally humorous.

It was quite intentional, I assure you. (Now, just to confuse you, I'll add a winking smiley)

Yes, but it would just need one atonement spell to set it straight (and there wouldn't even be an XP cost, since it was an unwitting violation, which atonement covers for free.)

Yes, but think of the torment (s)he'll go through until then. I mean, the druid will have gone from CoDzilla to someone who gets beat up by NPC classes. NPC classes, dangit! You don't get over that kind of embarrassment.

[Dausuul]

I'm shocked - I had no idea they still made websites with those annoying embedded MIDIs!
Also, I had another thought - if you do fall and are okay with it, you could just become a blighter (PrC from Complete Divine). It's a druid PrC that lets you wildshape into and summon skeletal animals, and has a very undead and anti-nature theme. Of course, it also sucks as far as I can tell, so that might not be the best idea.

Blighters. Pfeh. They're just defiler wannabes. When blighters learn to multiclass into Prestige Class: Dragon, then I'll think about playing one.

[skywalker]

Pfft! Everyone knows how the Druids get their language:

Spoiler

Show

Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon
Or asked the grinning bobcat why he grinned?
Can you sing with all the voices of the mountain?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?
Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

This made me LOL IRL. This is the fourth time something on the internet has done that(I keep count because it's so low, and I think it's a worthy kudo. Is kudo right?) Props be to you.

Also, even though it's been said many times:

Also, I had another thought - if you do fall and are okay with it, you could just become a blighter (PrC from Complete Divine). It's a druid PrC that lets you wildshape into and summon skeletal animals, and has a very undead and anti-nature theme. Of course, it also sucks as far as I can tell, so that might not be the best idea.

[Aquillion]

Yes, but think of the torment (s)he'll go through until then. I mean, the druid will have gone from CoDzilla to someone who gets beat up by NPC classes. NPC classes, dangit! You don't get over that kind of embarrassment.

Technically, they still have 3/4ths BAB, two good saves, and some weapon proficiencies, so they can still beat up commoners handily (unlike, say, a wizard who loses their spellcasting ability, who is on even ground with them. Well, discounting the familiar, I guess.)

[mostlyharmful]

Druids don't automatically abhor undead, nor abberitions or anything else- their falling is based soley on the three things already listed, teaching druidic to a non druid, changing to a prohibited alignment and stopping reveiring nature. Now I really like the Ebberron take on druidic that it CAN'T actually be taught to a nondruid, that it's like turn undead or a whole mentality of thought, and in my games we either scrap the Chaotic/Lawful alignment or no-one has alginment restrictions on their characters so it all boils down to "reveiring nature" whatever the heck that means.

Just like with the arguements over whats Chaotic and whats Lawful just about anything can be spun as "natural" given it's existance, and most things can be spun as "unnatural" (which incedentally the druid code doesn't demand you smite, it's concerned with your own value system, not whats happening around you). From species that were introduced to a foreign habitat at some point in the past to Human presence at all, anywhere, there are things that can be objected to or intergrated depending on the druid. Undead are a little trickier, until you start seeing "nature" on a grander scale than just the world you can see around you and include the planes and the afterlife, in which case abberations and undead are just part of the big scheme of things, maybe a bit out of place but certainly not "unnatural".

If you're going to label undead as being unacceptable then there's a very easy line to be drawn to all arcane users messing with things they shouldn't and being unnatural as clearly normal members of society can't blow fire out of their whatever, likewise divine magic users that have a specific god they receive power from are playing with things outside the normal, the divine realm being not something for mortals to be involved in either.

Which all leaves rather lonely Druids, , they don't like anything outside their small little worlds and good luck building a party with them in

So long as your guy has a reasonable explanation as to why its within their understanding of what is "natural" they can hang out with pretty much anything so long as the DM remembers it's a game and peoples RP is more important than a seriously messed up conception of how a "naturallistic" world view should work.

[paigeoliver]

You do have a problem in that you have a player in what seems to be a good-based heroic campaign planning on taking what is essentially an evil prestige class designed for NPCs.

I would suggest that you and the other heros simply refuse to put up with that. After you kill the first undead he summons or creates you can give him the courtesy of a brief hour head start before you hunt him down as a fugitive from good, the law and the gods.

Everyone looks at these classes and goes "Kewl beans, I wanna control undead/summon demons/other horrible thing", but that sort of thing is usually a game killer in a game that includes any real roleplaying.

Also, silly question, but isn't palemaster a spellcasting class with a pretty hefty requirement to entry, and this character is already a monk, what level would he ever even be taking the class at?

[kamikasei]

You do have a problem in that you have a player in what seems to be a good-based heroic campaign planning on taking what is essentially an evil prestige class designed for NPCs.

I don't see anything in the OP to suggest that this is a "good-based heroic campaign", just that his own character was NG. Other aspects of the group dynamic weren't mentioned or queried at all so I don't really see how this bears on the topic. The OP hasn't expressed any concern about his friend's alignment, just his necromancy.

[Talic]

If you're going to label undead as being unacceptable then there's a very easy line to be drawn to all arcane users messing with things they shouldn't and being unnatural as clearly normal members of society can't blow fire out of their whatever, likewise divine magic users that have a specific god they receive power from are playing with things outside the normal, the divine realm being not something for mortals to be involved in either.

Typically people view nature as all about life. The Circle of Life, and all that jazz. (Cue Lion King music) Undead are the absolute antithesis to life, so there is a definite arguement that an undead's existence is an affront to the natural order of life and death. This isn't a hard and fast rule, however; it's just widely accepted.

The arguement of arcane casters being unnatural in a realm pervaded with magic at every level is a bit harder. When fey and other woodland critters get SLA's, it's harder to argue that arcane casters are against the natural order (especially the spontaneous casters, who get their magic naturally, rather than wizards, who wrest the secrets from the universe).

As for the divine supporters of gods being natural, that's a very tenuous arguement, as the druid himself casts divine spells, and is thus involving himself in the divine realms.

Also, the druid isn't concerned with what is "normal" (because, let me tell you, little invisible elf-men with sleepy bows that can make you dance helplessly is NOT normal). He is concerned with "natural". For worlds steeped in magic, magic could well be natural.

[bosssmiley]

In answer to the OP's question: of course they can. Even hippies can become disillusioned.
See the Talontar Blightlord PrC in "Unapproachable East", or the Blighter PrC from "Complete Divine", or muse a little on where all those grafts and hideous fusions of normal animals come from, or make up your own 'former Granola girl NeoRepublican' PrC.

[Ganurath]

You do have a problem in that you have a player in what seems to be a good-based heroic campaign planning on taking what is essentially an evil prestige class designed for NPCs.

From what I understand, the Monk/Sorc/Pale Master is LN, not LE, so good times.

I would suggest that you and the other heros simply refuse to put up with that. After you kill the first undead he summons or creates you can give him the courtesy of a brief hour head start before you hunt him down as a fugitive from good, the law and the gods.

Or, the adventurers can think before they act, and understand that functionally the undead are more obedient, more versatile equivolents of animal companions. I suppose it all depends on whether or not the heroes are more hateful and narcissistic than an evil gnoll druid.

Everyone looks at these classes and goes "Kewl beans, I wanna control undead/summon demons/other horrible thing", but that sort of thing is usually a game killer in a game that includes any real roleplaying.

Really? Because I'd think a character following a controversal path like necromancer, warlock, or malconvoker would stimulate real roleplaying.

Also, silly question, but isn't palemaster a spellcasting class with a pretty hefty requirement to entry, and this character is already a monk, what level would he ever even be taking the class at?

OP clearly stated Monk's dipping Sorc, which is good for the Ascetic Mage feat. (Spellcasting ability modifier to AC? Can I get a "hell yes?" Hell yes!)

[Saph]

Just like with the arguements over whats Chaotic and whats Lawful just about anything can be spun as "natural" given it's existance, and most things can be spun as "unnatural" (which incedentally the druid code doesn't demand you smite, it's concerned with your own value system, not whats happening around you). From species that were introduced to a foreign habitat at some point in the past to Human presence at all, anywhere, there are things that can be objected to or intergrated depending on the druid. Undead are a little trickier, until you start seeing "nature" on a grander scale than just the world you can see around you and include the planes and the afterlife, in which case abberations and undead are just part of the big scheme of things, maybe a bit out of place but certainly not "unnatural".

The problem with this approach is that your druid's beliefs end up coming down to pretty much nothing except 'revere nature', which, as you pointed out, can be taken to mean just about anything.

By the standard PHB fluff, druids identify with natural creatures like animals and elementals and dislike things like undead and aberrations. Exactly where an individual druid draws the line is up to them, but it's highly, highly unlikely that a NG druid is going to be happy about walking around with an undead thingy.

That said, it doesn't actually make your druid fall, as there's nothing in the PHB description of druids and their code that mentions who you associate with. It could also lead to some quite fun roleplaying, so it's not necessarily a bad thing. :)

- Saph

[mostlyharmful]

The problem with this approach is that your druid's beliefs end up coming down to pretty much nothing except 'revere nature', which, as you pointed out, can be taken to mean just about anything

Which is only a problem if the player doesn't think through what their Druid values as natural beforehand. Once you've got a grounding idea you can spin off all kinds of crazy additions or theories for them to hold. My point was just that the fluff of druid is more accomidating than most people think, instead of just being "the trees sure are purty.".

I like to start with an environment, a creation myth or a cultural/religious viewpoint. Then try to expand that to include at least some of the wackiness that adventurers continually bump into. then try to stir in some human level foibles, prejucicies, fallibilities and preferences.

For examples of druidic sects that seem a little odd try the ashbound in ebberon that hate arcane magic or the blightlords in faerun that think everything would be improved for a little abberant lovin'. My favorite homebrew sect was the Termites, they were a group of druids that studied human urban development as the next stage of nature from the precedent of the termite mound. note the city itself not the inhabitants. endless morlock fun

[daggaz]

Of course druids can fall, and they take 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every ten feet they fall past the first ten feet. =P

[Green Bean]

The problem with this approach is that your druid's beliefs end up coming down to pretty much nothing except 'revere nature', which, as you pointed out, can be taken to mean just about anything.

Well, that's less of a bug, and more of a feature.

The vagueness is good, as it allows for diversity of different Druid concepts. Such as;

-The 'traditional' Druid who mainly lives outside, communes with the animals, opposes lumberyards etc.

-The Druid who focuses on the destructive side of nature, a 'survival of the fittest' kind of person.

-The farmer Druid who believes that nature becomes stronger with the aid of humans.

-The city-dwelling Druid, who prowls the alleyways alongside stray cats and pigeons, who has no more problem with a town than he would a rabbit's burrow.

-The undead loving Druid, who seeks to emulate the side of nature that leaves nothing to waste. After all, the corpses of the dead serve insects and fungus, so why not a druid?

The fact that there's such a loose definition means a player could pick any of these concepts, or even change from one to the other as character develops. Admittedly, it's important that a character actually chooses how (s)he'll revere nature, but that's something that players should resolve in their backstory the same way a cleric would justify their worship of a particular god.