Why "reboot" the Forgotten Realms?

[Talya]

I've been reading about the upcoming cataclysm and how it "reboots" the forgotten realms setting, getting rid of most establishments, high level NPCs (although, of course, Drizzt and Elminster survive), rearranging the cosmos, and the like.

Why? If I wanted to play a low-powered setting without many strong iIconics and lacking in depth and history, I'd play Eberron! That setting already exists! I want to keep reading the Realms as they are! The world setting is great for storytelling, why ruin it? They're pissing me off.

I think my settings will branch away from official FR timeline somewhat before Cyric kills Mystra, thank you very much.

[kamikasei]

I agree, it doesn't make much sense to me. Presumably it's partly motivated by a desire to make things more accessible for new players. However, if a new player wants to play FR in the first place, it's probably due to novels or games set in the pre-reboot FR, so why play in a version of the setting that's chucked half of what attracted you to it?

It seems to me like a metastory event which changed the cosmology around a bit but kept the timeline and characters where they were would have been much more appropriate.

[RTGoodman]

I'm also not really a big fan of it (they killed Helm! Why!), but I think it's sort of necessary. Isn't the Realms going to be the setting for the next RPGA "Living" campaign? If so, it makes more sense for some of the stuff to be gone (especially the uber-NPCs).

[Naga-Darmag]

Don’t they do this every time they switch system. Wasn’t time of trouble the switch to 3.0? It give them the opportunely to do the big changes they want to do to the setting and wasn’t it that what gave it a long complex history in the first please? And the old stuff will still be around, there’s no rule that say that you cant play 3,5 after 4 edition is realest .

[Talya]

Don’t they do this every time they switch system. Wasn’t time of trouble the switch to 3.0? It give them the opportunely to do the big changes they want to do to the setting and wasn’t it that what gave it a long complex history in the first please? And the old stuff will still be around, there’s no rule that say that you cant play 3,5 after 4 edition is realest .

The time of troubles made some minor cosmology changes. Mystra died and returned (with a new face), Myrkul, Baal, and Bane (temporarily, at least) bit it, while Cyric and Kelemvor rose to godhood. However, this cataclysm promises to kill every spellcaster over 14th level in the realms.

[Moral Wiz]

Heh. I got into FR (and D&D) with NWN, followed by free 2nd edition; I'm still smarting over the whole "No planscape thing"

Seriously; WotC seem to be pushing it a bit. They seem to be utterly determined to Ret-con across the board. Now, I don't mind that so much, but it can be taken to excess when you hit a host of minor details, trying to "fine tune" you end up with a lot of beaten heads (Don't get me STARTED about the new Tiefling. That's just...). Can you link me to any of the stuff discussing this "2nd Cataclysm." I'm taking that a basic outline (judging by WotC blurbs and you guys) goes like this

Cyric kills Mystra.

Big weave explosion

Lot a wizards dead (that anti-arcanist family must be happy )

Can someone get me a more indepth description? or is that about it.

[Roderick_BR]

Feels like those "Infinite" sagas in DC comics...

[Moral Wiz]

I'll tell you what all 4th edition seems like to me.

One More Day. Spider-man. Spoilers below.

For those who don't read spider-man (including me) This was basically a recent comic run, at the end of which, Spider-mans marriage, a staple of the comic book for about 20 years) was ret-conned.

Now, this alone would be OK. But a whole bunch of other details were changed into the bargain, in a way that made little apparent sense, beyond "It's Magic" Some of these were important, character defining events, such as the death of close friends (Harry Osborne, in case anyone hasn't read it yet.) and Spidey revealing his Identity during Civil War.

And they used a rather irritatingly forced seeming plot line to add to this. Spider man has to make a deal with the devil, to save his aunt. Who is ancient, almost on the end of life, and has spoken fondly of passing on, and watching Peter from beyond the grave.

It wasn't mind numbing; just sloppy. But that was enough to win it hatred (bare with me, please. I've almost reached the D&D ;p)

Atop this, to add even further irritation, the final arc was good (From an art PoV). I'm not certian of this, but by accouts, it was superb; tragic, and moving artwork.

But the run isn't known for that. It's known for the down points, and that is mainly due to an excess of sloppy Ret-con. I start to worry that the Realms in perticular, and 4th Ed in general, will be similar. 2nd to 3rd, as far as I could tell, made some changes to fluff, but kept it, basically in tact. For 4th, WotC have decided to clean house. But in doing so, they are basically tinkering with EVERYTHING. That's just gratuitous. (I don't like the direction they are going in either, but that's too OT, even for me) Fixing things, yeah, ok, but a lot of this is mearly stylistic (tiefling... Half Orc... ) and not nessecary.

The point is, all this change, and tinkering, will probably encompass everything, the realms, with it's rich history, worst of all. And that's a strong incentive to not touch 4th with a pair of tongs.

Sorry for the rant; but needed it off my chest. And it was sort of on topic.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Why? I could be wrong but I'm thinking lots of $$$$$$. With 4E a player could get by with one or a few core books and if they are willing to wait a few months none by utilizing the new 4E SRD since most of the fluff would still be good without the century reset of wild magic and spell plagues by taking a little time and just swapping out the new mechanics for a particular NPC or NPCs in a campaign.

[Tobrian]

Seriously, what are they thinking??

No, scratch that, I know exactly what WotC is probably thinking: There's not much left to publish under 3.5, thematically (all the classes and concepts and whatnot have been done to death in supplements like the Complete XX series, sometimes twice: Complete Arcane and Complete Mage, anyone? Complete Warrior and Tome of Nine Swords?). Forgotten Realms and Eberron have been milked dry of supplements. The power creep has reached astronomic levels. So let's "reboot" the whole thing with 4E, and republished everything again... Core Books, class books... Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, FR Player's Guide, Races of Faerun, Magic of Faerun.... dito for Eberron setting. That way you start "fresh" and can slowly reintroduce the power creep.

The problem with the d20 D&D rules is that they're too strongly interwoven with their settings. The rules system is not "neutral", it's sort of a metagaming system. Change it, and it's like changing the rules of physics in our universe. Looking back, the change from 2nd edition to 3E was still relatively mild... wizards still needed spellbooks, they might have a few more spells available, and some spells worked totally differently, infravision was changed to darkvision, but it was still recognisable. Now 4E comes along and from what I've gleaned from the "Wizards Presents", races and classes and the world will be radically different, especially in the fluff details, where the players feel it the most.

So why the hell are they not simply invented in totally new setting for 4E? If they are going to "retire" World of Greyhawk, why not retire Forgotten Realms, too? Eberron might still be "young" enough as a setting that it can be rewritten for 4e. But this talk of "rebooting" and "cataclysm" to "adapt" an old setting to the fancy new game, shall I tell you what it reminds me of? Way back, in the 1990s, TSR tried the same thing with the Dragonlance setting, to "revitalize" the world, and it pissed off a lot of fans. Before 3E came along, there had been two systems: AD&D 2nd Edition and D&D Players' Options. I really liked Players Options, btw; it didn't try to "rewrite" an existing gameworld. It was merely a more freestyle system of character creation withno rigid classes or races, a point-buy system faintly reminiscent of GURPS or HERO system (I suspect that some of the ideas from PO made it into 3E in the form of PrCs and racial/class substitution levels). But I guess lots of"hardcore" AD&D players who had never played anything but D&D didn't like PO. Anyway, Dragonlance had been in hiatus for some years because TSR had not supported the world... no new maps, no background material. Then, one day, they announced a "reboot" of Dragonlance under the SAGA system, called "Dragonlance Fifth Age". They hired new authors to write about a new world-changing cataclysm called the "Chaos War", which brought the 4th Age to an end and literally smashed whole continents on Krynn, banished the gods of Krynn from the world again, even banished Krynn's trademark three moons and replaced it with one pale white moon. Along with the moons, the old Orders of Wizardry fell... no more wizards, no Towers of Sorcery, no more clerics, and old 4th age magic items were now only useful to harvest mysterical energy from. Thus was the 5th Age born, called the Age of Mortal, a misnomer if I ever saw one, because shortly after, the 5th Age novels and game supplements introduced the new metaplot enemy: the Dragon Overlords; huge gigantic freakishly large and powerful dragons, who ate normale D&D dragons for breakfast (literally) and laid ruin to vast stretches of the world, enslaving and generally being unbeatable opponents of near godlike power while the power levels of player races had been reduced to a post-war state.

And that was because the 5th Age world had to be "adapted" to SAGA, and SAGA system was completely unlike AD&D 2nd Ed. Wizardly magic was replaced with "sorcery", clerical magic with "mysticism", very reminiscent of the way magic works in Ars Magica RPG; or in D&D terms, imagine a mixture of channeling and psionics instead of "spells". Now, don't get me wrong, I still think that the SAGA system implemented some great ideas. As far as the rules went, it was a solid working system. It had an equivalent of Action Points. I should have loved to use the new magic system, because I dislike the Vancian memorization system. (Just as I technically like some of the changes WotC made in 4E, esp to the wizard class...) And last but not least, suddenly there was a plethora of new supplements for DL!

BUT. I would have loved to play SAGA if they had implemented it in a completely new world setting! But instead the raped the world I knew and loved and made it unrecognizable. (It didn't help that some years later, Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman came back to the writing staff and partically "rewrote" the changes, bringing back the gods of Krynn etc.; then when D&D 3E was published, the d20 Dragonlance books more or less ignored the whole early post-Chaos War stuff and the world was reset to resemble what it had been under AD&D 2nd ed. (Only now with druids and bards and monks which like orcs had never before existed in Dragonlance. Oh well. At least there was a logical place for bards and druids, because gods of music and nature had been part of the setting from the beginning.)

I have nothing against advancing a metaplot. Worlds that never change become static. But if the sole reason for a world-shaking change is the introduction of new rules that rewrite the classes and races, then I get angry. I know GM who ignore the Time of Troubles in FR to this day.

I might love D&D 4E if it had been introduced as a completely new fantasy system, if it didn't try to change existing game worlds. Heck, if I had the chance to try out 4E unbiased, I might even come to the conclusion that 4E is superior to 3.5 system. (Although I find the animé/WOW/Hongkong movie feel of 4E a bit annoying.) But a "reboot"? WTF? Luckily I'm not emotionally invested in FR. But no more Planescape...?

[horseboy]

Only now with druids and bards and monks which like orcs had never before existed in Dragonlance. Oh well. At least there was a logical place for bards and druids, because gods of music and nature had been part of the setting from the beginning.)

Weren't monks in prior books the guys that guarded the library thingie with that really old guy that always wrote books?

[mostlyharmful]

Weren't monks in prior books the guys that guarded the library thingie with that really old guy that always wrote books?

That was more the traditional western monks, ie chanting book reading cloistered clerics rather than butt kicking jackie chans. So you've got friar tuck and then suddenly along comes neo. You can see why some (read everyone with a grain of brain) sees it as a bit of a diparture from the spirit of Dragonlance

[SurlySeraph]

I'm angry about the changes they're making to FR, very much so. It doesn't seem to occur to them that people like the Forgotten Realms because they're the Forgotten Realms - a place with a ludicrous power scale, huge amounts of history to draw upon, tons of thoroughly described locations, and more.

Hell, it's practically several campaign settings compressed into one: the Sword Coast, the Heartlands, the Underdark, the Unapproachable East, Maztica, and Kara-Tur. If a DM wants a setting that he can make up all the details he wants for, he can choose another or homebrew something. Now FR seems like it's a hyper-generic Anyworld, with Drizzt and Elminster in it.

The changes to the pantheon very much bother me. It makes sense to demote a lot of the gods to demi-gods. But having a ludicrously wide choice of gods means you can choose a deity who believes exactly what your character believes. I don't see why they're killing Mystra, but I have this feeling it's going to be exactly like the last two times she died - she's going to be right back, and it just happens to remind people that control over magic is Important Business.

Recent DnD novels have been systematically wiping out the entire Drow pantheon; I have this feeling that in 4E, there's going to be a huge nation of Elistraee-worshipping surface Drow vs. an equally large nation of Lolth-worshipping Underdark Drow. They killed off both Duergar deities, which pisses me off because I like Duergar and think they should be more important.

And then there's that thing with Tyr killing Helm. I realize that we don't know much about the characters of the deities, but that's still character derailment. Helm is one of the most iconic FR deities, and then the main god of paladins flips out and kill him. It makes no damn sense.

[BlackStaticWolf]

I don't see why they're killing Mystra, but I have this feeling it's going to be exactly like the last two times she died - she's going to be right back, and it just happens to remind people that control over magic is Important Business.

At least the first time she died she had the decency to drop a letter from her name and pretend to be a different god.

[Triaxx]

I've only ever adventured in FR when replaying the Baldur's Gate games. Why? Because we use it as a dump point. It's what our characters aspire to. When they finish a campaign, FR is where they 'retire' to.

So if they want to cataclysm the Realms, it's not really a big deal here. It just means whatever characters we're using at the time get elevated instantly to god-among-mortals status. (We typically finish around level 40 or so.)

[Talya]

I don't see why they're killing Mystra, but I have this feeling it's going to be exactly like the last two times she died - she's going to be right back, and it just happens to remind people that control over magic is Important Business.

That's only okay if the revival of Mystra also brings back the hundreds of wizards, sorcerors, and bards that the collapse of the weave kills...including Alustriel, Qilue, Laerel, The Simbul, Dove Falconhand, Khelben Arunsun, Halastar, Gromph Baenre, and the Harpell clan, and many others.

At least the first time she died she had the decency to drop a letter from her name and pretend to be a different god.

Midnight is Mystra. She planned it that way. Mystra is the Weave, and she picked her replacement in advance. Midnight more merged with Mystra and formed her new avatar, than replaced her.

[Kyeudo]

Forgotton Realms has needed a reboot for years. There is too much canon material to actualy play there without violating someones perceptions of how Forgotton Realms should play.

There are so many epic characters, developed nations, gods, goddesses, important NPCs, and important institutions that you can't throw a rock with out hitting one or three.

I'm jjust surprised they didn't get rid of Eliminster. He is one of the biggest offenders in all the Forgotton Realms.

[Talya]

Forgotton Realms has needed a reboot for years. There is too much canon material to actualy play there without violating someones perceptions of how Forgotton Realms should play.

There are so many epic characters, developed nations, gods, goddesses, important NPCs, and important institutions that you can't throw a rock with out hitting one or three.

That's the point...that's what some people WANT...why mess up the only setting that has that? If they want an under-developed setting without any soul, they could just play eberron, let's not turn FR into Eberron as well.

You know, I'd be okay with them doing this, if they intentionally "post dated" it...set it thousands of years after the events currently unfolding in FR novels and books....

A friend of mine believes that this is WotC intentionally killing the FR setting. They did this with Dragonlance (5th age mentioned above) so they could stop paying Weiss and Hickman. Now they want to get rid of Greenwood.

[RTGoodman]

And then there's that thing with Tyr killing Helm. I realize that we don't know much about the characters of the deities, but that's still character derailment. Helm is one of the most iconic FR deities, and then the main god of paladins flips out and kill him. It makes no damn sense.

I don't have Grand History of the Realms, but I flipped through it at the bookstore once to see about this "Faerun Cataclysm" or whatever they're calling it.

As far as Helm and Tyr, they end up fighting a duel over the honor of some female god in whom they're both romantically interested (Sune or Selune or something, I think), if I remember correctly. I think Cyric somehow convinces one of them that the other insulted her, and their Lawful nature prevents them from stopping even if they figure out the ruse. Tyr just ends up coming out on top. My initial thought, besides shock and anger (since Helm's my favorite FR god), is that it's some sort of a symbolic way to end 3E in the Realms - after all, during the Time of Troubles, it was only Helm that didn't get reduced to mortalhood, right? Now, there's a new apocalypse, and he symbolically dies with the edition.

Also, as an aside, prepare to not do anything in Waterdeep once this all occurs. If I remember correctly, the Grand History talks about the nearly the entire city being wiped out by some plague or somesuch.

[thorgrim29]

WHAT!!!!! They actually killed my favourite support chars, the sisters and the harpells, damn them to hell.

[Talya]

WHAT!!!!! They actually killed my favourite support chars, the sisters and the harpells, damn them to hell.

Most of them. Probably. I'm using deduction here. From what i understand, almost all spellcasters over level 14 in the setting die.

Notable exceptions mentioned are Elminster and Storm Silverhand (there's one of your sisters.) Alustriel and Qilue better survive, they are the only two I use regularly.

[bugsysservant]

As far as Helm and Tyr, they end up fighting a duel over the honor of some female god in whom they're both romantically interested (Sune or Selune or something, I think), if I remember correctly. I think Cyric somehow convinces one of them that the other insulted her, and their Lawful nature prevents them from stopping even if they figure out the ruse. Tyr just ends up coming out on top.

Great, they're starting off not only with killing my favorite published campaign setting, they're tacking on a lawful stupid act to seal the deal. And I had liked most of 4ed stuff till now too...

[shadowdemon_lord]

I don't even play in the forgotten realms anymore and this still pisses me off. The time of troubles was a bit of a retcon, but it was a well done retcon that made only minor changes. It didn't jump ten years into the future, rewrite every nation that currently exists, and even rewrite which races exist, and then rewrite the races they're keeping (Elves dieing at 150-200 years old anyone?).

But I understand why they are doing it. They wanted to bring LG to a close, and needed a big name brand to sell their next living campaign (and consequently 4th ed). They needed to make sure they're next Living Campaign was practically guaranteed to be on par with Living Greyhawk is now, because otherwise Living Arcanis would become the big name Living Campaign and take a large share of the market (problem? Living Arcanis isn't converting to 4th ed immediately, if ever). So as their best well known campaign next to Greyhawk, they say lets do our next living campaign in the realms.

Of course, now they've got all new authors and these guys don't want to write continuations of the old realms stories, they want new ones. They also want to put Tieflings, Dragon Born, etc into the new campaign so new players don't have to buy a forgotten realms sourcebook to figure out how to build a character. I predict that the Forgotten Realms Living Campaign will be a huge success, that the number of people who know and love the realms and who use the new retconned to hell and back setting will be low, but that new players who are drawn in by 4th ED's similarities to computer games and the appeal of playing a Dragonborn will mostly make up for this lack of sales.

[Talya]

Great, they're starting off not only with killing my favorite published campaign setting, they're tacking on a lawful stupid act to seal the deal. And I had liked most of 4ed stuff till now too...

Ha! I've been saying all along...the blatant disregard for "fluff" they've been showing with the construction of 4e portends very, very bad things.

When [they] came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

"I don't care that they're changing succubi and erinyes and elves and gnomes and tieflings and dwarves and blah blah blah..."

Heh. Leave fluff alone. All of it. Match the new rules to existing fluff, or forget about new rules.

[Matthew]

I don't even play in the forgotten realms anymore and this still pisses me off.

A perfect summing up, I would say.

I suspect it's all about branding and money. The Forgotten Realms is almost as strong a brand as Dungeons & Dragons, so rather than lose the power of that brand, they choose to harness it for their new design and money making machine. It only makes good business sense, since they don't really care what older gamers think or want, as their market is primarily 11-16 year olds who they expect to keep hold of for 5-10 years [i.e. one edition cycle].

Greenwood doesn't seem to be worrying too hard about it. He still plays AD&D 2e by all accounts and his Forgotten Realms is somewhat different to the published campaign world.

[bugsysservant]

"I don't care that they're changing succubi and erinyes and elves and gnomes and tieflings and dwarves and blah blah blah..."

That strikes me as a bit tasteless. I don't agree with what WoTC is doing, but I wouldn't compare it to the Holocaust. (Does Godwin's Law apply if you don't actually refer to the individual?)

[VanBuren]

Ha! I've been saying all along...the blatant disregard for "fluff" they've been showing with the construction of 4e portends very, very bad things.



"I don't care that they're changing succubi and erinyes and elves and gnomes and tieflings and dwarves and blah blah blah..."

Heh. Leave fluff alone. All of it. Match the new rules to existing fluff, or forget about new rules.

Don't you think the comparison is a bit overdramatic? I mean, the Holocaust and the butchering of pre-4th edition lore can't even be compared.

[kamikasei]

That strikes me as a bit tasteless. I don't agree with what WoTC is doing, but I wouldn't compare it to the Holocaust. (Does Godwin's Law apply if you don't actually refer to the individual?)

No, it doesn't. And I think this is rather an overreaction to Talya's post. That "When they came for the X" quote is widely used without any particular reference to the Holocaust to express simply, "stand up for the rights of others, because they are the same rights that protect you". In this case, "be wary of gratuitous changes to things you don't care about, because things you do care about are just as likely to be gratuitously changed".

I don't imagine there was any intent on her part to suggest a similarity to the Holocaust or anything related to it.

[Talya]

No, it doesn't. And I think this is rather an overreaction to Talya's post. That "When they came for the X" quote is widely used without any particular reference to the Holocaust to express simply, "stand up for the rights of others, because they are the same rights that protect you". In this case, "be wary of gratuitous changes to things you don't care about, because things you do care about are just as likely to be gratuitously changed".

I don't imagine there was any intent on her part to suggest a similarity to the Holocaust or anything related to it.

Thank you for getting it.

[EvilElitest]

I'm also not really a big fan of it (they killed Helm! Why!), but I think it's sort of necessary. Isn't the Realms going to be the setting for the next RPGA "Living" campaign? If so, it makes more sense for some of the stuff to be gone (especially the uber-NPCs).

sadly this kills all the appeal of the FR, i like it the way it is. Can't they just tweak the crunch and leave the world alone? Or make a new champain setting or use Ebberon
from
EE