Paladin RKV?

[Keld Denar]

I was just thinking about something. Would a Paladin be able to qualify for RKV? They get 1st level divine spells at level 4 and Turn Undead at level 4. I'm thinking a build like:
Human
1 Paladin 1 Power Attack, Open Feat?
2 Paladin 2
3 Crusader 1 Extra Granted Maneuver
4 Paladin 3
5 Paladin 4
6 RKV 1 Divine Might
7 RKV 2
8 RKV 3
9 RKV 4 Battle Blessing
10 RKV 5
11 RKV 6
12 RKV 7 Imp Bull Rush
13 RKV 8
14 RKV 9
15 RKV 10 Shock Trooper
16 Crusader 2
17 Paladin 5
18 Paladin 6 Leap Attack
19 Crusader 3
20 Crusader 4

Finish off with 2 more levels of paladin (for 4th level spells (paladin 14)) and 3 levels of Crusader (IL17 at level 20 for Strike of RV)

Anyone see this as a valid build? Probably ditch the mount at level 17 for Charging Smitadin, since at that level, mount is probably worthless. The Imp Bullrush>Shocktrooper>Leap Attack combo was kind of tacked on for simplicity, and synergizes well with Rhino's Rush from SC. One trick that the RKVadin has is the ability to burn turn attempts to Divine Impetius for bonus swift actions to cast Battle Blessing swift spells like Holy Sword and Earth Hammer and Divine Favor and Bless Weapon for rapid buffing before charging and smiting. I also see great saves and full BAB coming out of this. Reflex save might be a bit low, but failed reflex saves rarely KILL you, they just tingle a lot.

Build looks pretty playable at all levels. Anyone see any major flaws or weaknesses? I'm thinking of glaive + armor spikes for a weapon combo, but a greatsword would be fine too.

[RTGoodman]

They'd certainly be able to qualify - the description (see the top of the second column on pg. 122) says "most Ruby Knight Vindicators are multiclass crusader/clerics or paladins who have entered this class after learning a Devoted Spirit maneuver, either by selecting the appropriate feats or or by taking a level in the crusader class." (Emphasis mine.)

Really, a Paladin could qualify without ever taking levels of Crusader, I think, as long as you grab the feats that give you one maneuver and one stance. Also, there's no "+1 level of existing maneuver-and-stance using class" - the PrC just gives the progression of new stuff learned, so you'd just sort of get them. Seems to me the only problem might be the skill prerequisites, but those aren't even that bad (despite Hide's near-uselessness to a Paladin or other heavy-armor wearer). Of course, having no martial adept levels and still taking the PrC isn't gonna be that great.

As far as effectiveness of a Paladin/Crusader/RKV, I'm not sure. I haven't played a martial adept class before (got the book for Christmas, so I hope to play one soon to give it a try), but it seems like it might be better that a Cleric/Crusader if you're going for a more martial-oriented character. You'll keep a full BAB, get better saves (assuming a good Cha), grab self-buffs from Paladin spells, and get a pretty decent IL for your Crusader stuff.

[Tyger]

The qualifying is easy, its the "acting as a holy assassin" while still maintaining your paladin's code. Depending on your DM and campaign, those two may not work well together at all. Of course, if your campaign has paladins that are not complete twits, then its a nice synergy.

[Person_Man]

Mounts can be a Paladin's most powerful class feature. You just need to take Leadership or Dragon Cohort or one of the many other Mount specific feats to support it. It's a very good return on a one feat investment.

[RTGoodman]

I actually had no idea that they were holy assassins and stuff like that - I guess I should read the fluff more often. Also, apparently at 5th level your armor check penalty just doesn't count against Hide checks, so I guess it's not a compete waste for a Paladin/Crusader/RKV to take extra ranks in it.


Consequently, has anyone looked at the sample NPC for the RKV? Because apparently no one at WotC before they published the book - the patron deity for the sample Ruby Knight Vindicator, a specific Wee Jas-based PrC, is listed as St. Cuthbert!

St. Cuthbert seems like a cool guy, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't really want one of his Clerics to be hanging out in a secret society of Wee Jasites...

[Keld Denar]

Awww come on Person Man, I was expecting a little more insight from you of all people.

The real reason I left off the mount feature is because A) he doesn't aquire it until 17th level, and B) it won't be advanced on the table on the side bar, so it'll be pretty vulnerable and whatnot. RKV doesn't say it advances mount features, so its probably safe to assume it doesn't.

And yeah, on of my biggest problem with RKV IS the diety/flavor requirements. I think it is very limiting on what I think is a pretty cool and well balanced prclass. I think they should be more generic and allowable by all gods with a penchance for divine smiting.

Anyone have any thoughts about the open feat at 1? Any opinions on stances/maneuvers? Any general critisism?

[Tyger]

No real comments or advice, other than to question the "I think it is very limiting on what I think is a pretty cool and well balanced prclass." [emphasis mine]

Balanced? This is one of the more powerful PrCs out there (IoSFV aside ). Full BAB, full manuever progression, some seriously kick butt abilities (Turn attempts for maneuver recovery? Sweet!) and damn near full caster progression.

As someone else on the D&D forums noted, the RKV should have the pre-req of having drank a chalice of Pun-Pun's blood. Its a very high powered PrC. At least, in my opinion.

[Fawsto]

Hmmm... RKV always seemed a nice PrC for me. Your build sounds quite interesting. Also, with 5 Paladin levels and charging smite you are as destructive as a 15th level paladin with a mount. This Rocks.

[Nerd-o-rama]

But it's still less powerful than Cleric 20.

Paladins of Wee Jas in general, and Ruby Knight Vindicators in particular, might have to walk a very, very fine line between their duties to their church/order and the universal code of conduct expected of a Paladin, but there's nothing in the rules stopping them. However, since one of the main draws of RKV is spellcasting progression, you might want to stick with Cleric. A Paladin with Maneuvers is still neat, but one with Maneuvers and Cleric spells is probably superior.

[Keld Denar]

I picked Paladin mostly to synergize the Battle Blessing feat converting all paladin spells to swift actions with the RKV Divine Impetius ability. Also, paladins get some personal buffs that clerics don't get, such as Holy Sword, Bless Weapon, and Earth Hammer, all of which are great offensive buffs. Also, having full BAB all the time is great, so you don't have to rely on Divine Power to keep you going.

[Fawsto]

Jezz! You have spoken the truth! Never designate a Cleric to do a Paladin's job!

Seriously, you could be better with Cleric, but if you want flavour and a true Holy Warrior the Paladin will serve you well. Besides that, Divine Grace is HOT!

-- Faws

[Person_Man]

Awww come on Person Man, I was expecting a little more insight from you of all people.

lol. Alright, alright.

Leadership works off your character level and Cha, not your Paladin bonus. So a Paladin 5 with Leadership still has an impressive mount that he can Share Spells with, which would synergize well with this build. You could also be a Strongheart Halfling if you want to ride a medium mount but still want the bonus feat.

Instead of standard Paladin, you might want to consider a Paladin of Freedom or Tyranny. Freedom gets immunity to Compulsion effects (ie, most of the Enchantment school), which is much more powerful then immunity to Fear. Tyranny imposes a -2 on the Saves of its enemies, which is very useful when combined with other debuffing effects, and with maneuvers which require a Save. But obviously either would have serious alignment implications.

You lose 5 caster levels with your build, which hurts any the synergy between Battle Blessing with Divine Impetus. (A great idea, btw). So if you're going to do that, then you should do what you can to increase your caster levels. Paladin 5/RKV 7/Full Caster Progression PrC 8 would only lose 2 caster levels. Archivist 7/Sacred Exorcist 1/RKV 7/Full Caster Progression PrC 4 would also work, since Archivists get access to Paladin spells, but have Cleric spell progression. Or you can use a Cleric/Prestige Paladin progression. I know that you'd have to spend your feats on Martial Study and Martial Stance, but I think it would be worth it, especially if you go the Archivist or Prestige Paladin route.

If you don't, then Leap Attack + Shock Trooper is almost always a solid feat choice for any full BAB build. Just be sure to use a two handed reach weapon. Your AC is going to be garbage after you charge, so AoO will be your only real defense.

Other good choices might be Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Frightful Presence, Death Devotion, Headlong Rush (if you're willing to be an Orc), Knockback (if you're willing to be a Goliath), or Sword of the Arcane Order (which allows Paladins or Rangers to memorize Wizard spells, though there's some fluff contradiction with being a RKV).

As far as Maneuvers and Stances go, you're only going to get a very small number, and your initiator level is nerfed unless you go Cleric 1/Crusader 4/RKV 7/Whatever 8 or something similar. But there are still plenty of gems you could get access to. Thicket of Blades with a reach weapon. Any of the Devoted Spirit Charge maneuvers (Tide of Chaos, Radiant Charge, etc) will work well with Leap Attack. White Raven Tactics is always good. Assassin Stance can give you access to the Craven and Staggering Strike feats, which are quite potent.

[Keld Denar]

Build looses 6 caster levels actually. RKV is 8/10 unless I'm mistaken, and there are 4 Crusader levels. This is something I've considered, and thought about going with more Crusader levels, but I felt like 4th level paladin spells were pretty good (Holy Sword!). A couple of Pearls 1-4 will help recharge between encounters.

What would be really great is if I could keep full BAB, and get into a fast progression paladinlike caster class, like Pious Templar, but I can't think of a way that gets Turn Undead to meet the reqs for RKV. I don't want to just take a level of cleric, because I would hate to have the deadend 1st level cleric casting just sitting there being worthless over a 20 level design.

What about something like Crusader5/Pious Templar1/Sacred Exorcist1/RKV10/Crusader3. I don't remember if SE would be enterable under these conditions, I'll check when I get home from work. SE and RKV would both progress PT casting which would cap out from PT1,SE1,and 8/10 RKV. It would still lose a BAB, but at least there wouldn't be a stranded cleric level.

The problem with your Archivist build is that Battle Blessing is only for Paladin spells, and if the Archivist casts them, they aren't paladin spells, they are archivist spells. PT specifically casts paladin spells. Any other good fast track PrCs that cast spells as a paladin? Maybe one that grants turn undead? Divine Crusader or Hosiptalar or something?

[AslanCross]

I actually had no idea that they were holy assassins and stuff like that - I guess I should read the fluff more often. Also, apparently at 5th level your armor check penalty just doesn't count against Hide checks, so I guess it's not a compete waste for a Paladin/Crusader/RKV to take extra ranks in it.


Consequently, has anyone looked at the sample NPC for the RKV? Because apparently no one at WotC before they published the book - the patron deity for the sample Ruby Knight Vindicator, a specific Wee Jas-based PrC, is listed as St. Cuthbert!

St. Cuthbert seems like a cool guy, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't really want one of his Clerics to be hanging out in a secret society of Wee Jasites...

If you look at the artwork, he even has the St. Cuthbert Cross on the pommel of his falchion. Most likely a last minute change---RKV might have originally been designed for St. Cuthbert's clerics---especially since the RKV has practically nothing to do with death and magic, just Crusader-style smashing with an added measure of stealth.

Outside of core, though, I find that the RKV works very well with FR's Kelemvor. Reflavored as an undead hunter/assassin who messes up evil clerics who raise undead (or with the proper spells, messes up undead with gravestrike)---I call it the Fugue Knight.

[Mando Knight]

The only problem I see is that Pallys can't multiclass like that as far as I know... As soon as they take their 1st level in another class, they can't gain Paladin levels, so the OP's path doesn't work, unless it's been houseruled otherwise?

[Dark Tira]

The only problem I see is that Pallys can't multiclass like that as far as I know... As soon as they take their 1st level in another class, they can't gain Paladin levels, so the OP's path doesn't work, unless it's been houseruled otherwise?

That is true, though all he'd have to do is switch his race to Illumian to fix it.

[AslanCross]

The only problem I see is that Pallys can't multiclass like that as far as I know...

According to Tome of Battle:
Multiclass note: A paladin who becomes a Ruby Knight Vindicator can continue advancing as a paladin.

[Mando Knight]

Ah. See what I get for only having the SRD?

[The White Knight]

Outside of core, though, I find that the RKV works very well with FR's Kelemvor. Reflavored as an undead hunter/assassin who messes up evil clerics who raise undead (or with the proper spells, messes up undead with gravestrike)---I call it the Fugue Knight.

Just now I was thinking of something very similar for a Cleric I'm playing in a FR campaign. Have to see if I can finaggle the DM into using ToB, heh...

[Dark Tira]

According to Tome of Battle:
Multiclass note: A paladin who becomes a Ruby Knight Vindicator can continue advancing as a paladin.

That's fine for RKV but what about the crusader level stuck between the pairs of paladin level?

[AslanCross]

That's fine for RKV but what about the crusader level stuck between the pairs of paladin level?

Ah, true. That would be an issue. (Though if I were the DM I'd houserule that he can continue taking Paladin levels. It's not like Crusader is too different in fluff, anyway.)

[Leon]

The qualifying is easy, its the "acting as a holy assassin" while still maintaining your paladin's code. Depending on your DM and campaign, those two may not work well together at all. Of course, if your campaign has paladins that are not complete twits, then its a nice synergy.

Add some gray guard into the mix so less worry about the "code"

there is a feat called Knight training or some such that allows multi classing with Paladin (aswell as one for monks along the same line)

[Keld Denar]

Ok, how about this? Ignore the fluff about RKV and Ordained Champ being about different gods for a moment.

Human
1 Crusader 1 Improved Init, Extra Granted Maneuver
2 Paladin 1
3 Paladin 2 Power Attack
4 Paladin 3
5 Paladin 4
6 RKV 1 Divine Might
7 RKV 2
8 RKV 3
9 RKV 4 Battle Blessing
10 RKV 5
11 RKV 6
12 RKV 7 Imp Bull Rush
13 OrdChamp 1
14 OrdChamp 2
15 OrdChamp 3 Shock Trooper
16 OrdChamp 4
17 OrdChamp 5
18 RKV 8 Leap Attack
19 Crusader 2
20 Crusader 3

How does this look? Gets all the fun stuff from RKV and OC. The 8th level of RKV is needed to get to pally CL 14 for 4th level spells. Any thoughts from the crowd?

[Person_Man]

Ok, how about this? Ignore the fluff about RKV and Ordained Champ being about different gods for a moment.

Human
1 Crusader 1 Improved Init, Extra Granted Maneuver
2 Paladin 1
3 Paladin 2 Power Attack
4 Paladin 3
5 Paladin 4
6 RKV 1 Divine Might
7 RKV 2
8 RKV 3
9 RKV 4 Battle Blessing
10 RKV 5
11 RKV 6
12 RKV 7 Imp Bull Rush
13 OrdChamp 1
14 OrdChamp 2
15 OrdChamp 3 Shock Trooper
16 OrdChamp 4
17 OrdChamp 5
18 RKV 8 Leap Attack
19 Crusader 2
20 Crusader 3

How does this look? Gets all the fun stuff from RKV and OC. The 8th level of RKV is needed to get to pally CL 14 for 4th level spells. Any thoughts from the crowd?

Although I think my previous Caster Level criticism stands, I think its a solid build. I'd drop Improved Initiative. I think that feats that provide a static bonus are generally weak.

As a side note, if you're just hung up on getting Holy Sword you can take the Gold Dwarf Dweomersmith feat from Races of Faerun. Although it requires that you be a Gold Dwarf playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign, it adds some really useful spells to any caster's spell list, such as Flame Blade and Holy Sword. It's a great feat for Clerics and any Gish-like build. Champion of Gwynharwyf and Vassal of Bahamut also get it on their caster list. Or you can just dip one level into Paladin (or use UMD) and buy a Wand of Holy Sword.

[Chronicled]

Although I think my previous Caster Level criticism stands, I think its a solid build. I'd drop Improved Initiative. I think that feats that provide a static bonus are generally weak.

Agreed. Perhaps something like Stone Power (-1 attack, +2 temp HP) would be in order? Without the full benefit of the delayed damage pool and furious counterattack it's less of a sure thing, but I think it would still be quite useful here.

[Keld Denar]

Agreed. Perhaps something like Stone Power (-1 attack, +2 temp HP) would be in order? Without the full benefit of the delayed damage pool and furious counterattack it's less of a sure thing, but I think it would still be quite useful here.

I considered Stone Power, but decided against it. Without full levels in Crusader for the largest Steeley Resolve possible, it just doesn't pan out. Plus, I'd rather be PAing and doing both lowers accuracy lower than I'd like.

Hmmm, are there any prclasses that have accelerated paladin spell progression similar to a Pious Templar? Or 1 level dip prcs that advance spell casting AND give turn undead?

And Person Man, its not just Holy Sword. There are a few other nice 4th level paladin spells such as Favor of the Martyr which would be worth casting. Granted, with 14 pally caster levels, I'd only get 1 4th level spell unless wisdom was around 26, which probably isn't possible. It would be nice to have the option though.

[Keld Denar]

So, I was thinking that maybe Knight of the Raven and/or Pious Templar might make a better entry into RKV than Paladin. I'm looking primarily at Pious Templar because it casts Paladin spells (important for Battle Blessing, part of the trick) at an accelerated rate. I have seen multiple mentions of Knight of the Raven both here and over on the charOP forums, and have gleened that it grants Turn Undead without requiring it. So I'm thinking there must be some way to use a combo of Crusader/PT and/or KotR to qualify for RKV.

Unfortunately, I don't have any info on KotR, other than that it grants turn undead at some point.

So, what book does KotR appear in?
What level does it grant TU?
How easy are the prereqs for it? I'm trying to get in asap.
What kind of spellcasting does it have? Any? Pious Templar-like fast paladin casting? +1 existing spell level casting?

Just some details shouldn't violate any copyright laws. I'm not asking for a wholesale copy/paste of the class, just some insight to help me formulate before I run out to check on the book and possibly buy it. If its not gonna give me the results I want, there is no point in tracking it down.

Thanks in advance!

[Aerogoat]

Knight of the Raven is in Return Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
Turning comes at level 3. So does the Sun Domain, for what it's worth.
Prerequisites are ridiculously easy. You can't help but qualify for it by the time you take a level or two of PT.
It has 9/10 "+1 existing" spellcasting

[Keld Denar]

Ah, thats what I kind of feared. That wouldn't get me into RKV until about level 9, and I wouldn't get Divine Impetius until level 15ish, too late to really enjoy it. Something might be:

Crusader5/PT1/KotR3/RKV10/Crusader1

Any feat/spell/skill requirements for it?

[Aerogoat]

Any feat/spell/skill requirements for it?

Nope. Like I say, you actually can't help but qualify for it once you enter Pious Templar.