NPC's With a Serious Side of Cheese

[TaintedLight]

I was just wondering if I was the only one who thinks that this character might be a little bit ludicrous. Fortunately, I am good at keeping my IC and OoC knowledge separate, so my DM allowed me a peek at one of the NPC sheets that he was particularly proud of and wanted a bit of input on. A few things I noticed: a human with a strength of 22 at 5th level, 10 points of ki as a 5th level ninja with a +4 Wis, a permanent 25% miss chance, more skill ranks than her class and intelligence modifier could possibly provide, and some feats that she shouldn't be able to have yet. Our party (aside from her) is 4th level. Ok, this is a powerful NPC with adjustments that the DM felt were appropriate or necessary. Still, a little ludicrous.

Then comes the in-game cheese. She has been tasked by some mysterious unknown party to make sure that our party (changeling ninja, human monk, human knight) stays alive while we complete our mission. OK, she is really good at what she does. At one point we had to board an airship that was casting off, and the gangplank was already lifted by the time I got to it, so I had to make a jump check (hooray for action points, a +4 Str, and ninja abilities) to grab onto the side of it. I make the jump, but a gnome with a crossbow knocks me unconscious before I can climb on. I am now at -3 and plummeting to my certain death 200 feet below, and OoC wondering what class my new character will be. This NPC JUMPS OFF THE AIRSHIP, catches me halfway down, and slams one of her magic knives into the side of the dock, slowing our descent . The monk lowers 150 ft of rope for her to climb while carrying my 117 lb body, and she does it almost effortlessly. I hereby call shenanigans!

[Gig_Complex]

That my friend is called a DMPC and as a not so rare breed amongst many DMs are known for specifically that kind of shenanigans. A majority are superior to any PC of an equal level usually owning to the fact that they are a self insert of the DM and can be quite the scene stealer. Usually the DM will place one within the group to ensure that the party stays alive as he feels you may not be ready for the tasks he will throw at you. Usually this can be solved by killing said DMPC, preferably in as much a humiliating manner as possible.

[Irreverent Fool]

Gig has it exactly right. Some DMs feel the need to insert such characters in their games and they usually have whatever abilities the DM feels he needs to accomplish whatever it is that the PCs should be doing.

I would try talking to your DM about your concerns about this character having abilities no character of that level should have. If he MUST have it there, he should build it as a legitimate character at least and simply have it be of higher level, maybe in the possession of powerful magic items to legitimize his ability scores.

In my experience, DMPCs amount to watching the DM play his own game while everyone else is just supposed to sit around and watch him do it. It is very distasteful in my opinion and says something about the DM's desire to show everyone how great he is and exercise power unnecessarily over those playing his game. When I run into a DMPC, I call bull**** when I see it and will leave a game if it's not fixed.

I don't want to get into specific words, but suffice to say that when you do such a thing as play a DMPC, God kills kittens.

Edit: Oh, and that's not even cheese. Cheese is legitimate.

[valadil]

DMPCs are almost always a bad thing. If the party really needs a little extra help, they should get a hireling, and the GM should play the hireling as needed. Overshadowing the PCs is not a good way to make them happy.

That said, I have put cheesy NPCs to good use. In my thieves guild game, the town guards (which are distinct from the mercenaries and bouncers most people hired for defense) were gestalt paladin/battle sorcerers with mithral full plate and spiked chains. The players were not gestalt. The spellguard, as they were known, were also several levels higher than the PCs.

The point was not to show my dominance over the players. It was to create escape scenes. These guys were the equivalent of agents in The Matrix. You don't fight them, you just run. I had to make sure the players knew this and understood this. In most combat, if you run away that's a defeat. Not as painful as a TPK, but still a defeat. In one of these combats, escape was success. Knowing that, we had a lot of fun with the spellguard, and even more fun when the players finally started killing them.

[Irreverent Fool]

I fully endorse Valadil's post.

I like the gestalt guards in a non-gestalt game idea. My guards are just NPC warriors for the most part that can take out threats through numbers and organized tactics but would easily fall if the PCs got it into their heads to kill them.

In the game I'm running, the party has managed to turn a former agent of the enemy into a hireling (funny how piling PC wealth onto a mercenary will do that). They've treated him well and value his assistance. He doesn't really do anything though. He helps carry goods, provides the occasional snippit of information, picks on the halfling bard, etc.

I frequently skip over him in the initiative and he is for the most part concerned with not dying rather than fighting the enemy. He complains etc. OCCASIONALLY I'll fudge a roll for him or have him step in to defend a wounded PC, but these instances are few and far between. He's not as far in the background as say, a wizard's familiar, but he's never in the forefront.

This is just how I've been doing it, I'm not saying it has to be done this way. I do find it keeps the spotlight on the PCs. Plus, they like his so much he's an always-available plothook!: "By Cuthbert's beard! That band of goblins dragged Chuck off while we were sleeping! We have to go rescue him!"

Edit: As opposed to "Oh, the DMs character got dragged off by blue dragons... thank God he's gone."
...
"Oh, the DMs character killed all the blue dragons and came back even more powerful. Great."

[Person_Man]

It sounds like your DM made two big mistakes:

1) DM PC: I fully understand what its like to be DM all or most of the time. And that sucks, because as much as I enjoy DMing, I play D&D because I want to play D&D. And I understand the desire to "save" PC's when I make an encounter too powerful by accident, or gently steer them back towards my plot trees when they've wandered way beyond what I've written. But its been my universal experience that playing a DM PC is a bad idea, and playing in a group with a DM PC is almost always detracts from my experience as well.

2) Made up Rules: If you fall, you fall. You finish falling on your turn in the Initiative order, when you hit the ground and take damage. There are several specific ways to avoid this. Feather Fall. Ready an Action. You can make a Climb check (DC = DC of Wall + 20) if you're near a wall or Rope. Someone adjacent or beneath you when you fall can make a Climb check in an attempt to catch you. But there is no rule that I'm aware of that lets another PC or NPC dive down an interrupt a PC's fall after its happened.

I would suggest that you just talk to the DM about it. Explain that you don't want your PC's to be saved or told what to do. You just want to play. And if he's really dying to play a cool Ninja, take your turn as DM and let him play a Ninja. Then go back to the other campaign, without the DM PC.

[sonofzeal]

To me, it's more ambiguous. DM NPCs depend entirely on how their used. If they're upstaging the PCs, that's bad, but there's room for powerful NPCs in the game world who might not happen to be villains. It all depends on whether or not the PCs end up feeling unneeded.

As to bending the rules on the fall, I like to play rules-heavy as a player, but as a DM I would rather bend the rules slightly than interfere with the narrative. Case in point - if I had a PC who was important to the plot, and who flubbed a major role and was now plummeting to his death, I might throw out some ridiculous stunt in order to save them.

[TaintedLight]

I have confronted the DM about this actually, and I told him that this character has abilities far beyond those of a 5th level character, but he just tells me to shut up and that she is "special". He does this a lot actually; in an epic level campaign he ran, there were 3 NPC party members who all seemed to be DMPCs. For example, the 24th level character who had a +18 Charisma. How can I get my point across to him that the players don't enjoy a game anymore when all of the NPCs make them look like chumps with their illegal abilities/stats/whatever?

[Irreverent Fool]

I have confronted the DM about this actually, and I told him that this character has abilities far beyond those of a 5th level character, but he just tells me to shut up and that she is "special". He does this a lot actually; in an epic level campaign he ran, there were 3 NPC party members who all seemed to be DMPCs. For example, the 24th level character who had a +18 Charisma. How can I get my point across to him that the players don't enjoy a game anymore when all of the NPCs make them look like chumps with their illegal abilities/stats/whatever?

Stop playing with him.

Seriously. If it's that bad, he's not going to understand unless people refuse to join in games where he's just... killing kittens... Get your other players together and start up a new game. If nobody's much of a DM, pick up the Sunless Citadel and run through it with some level 1's. Or get ahold of some Dungeon magazines, start the Age of Worms.

[Talanic]

Yeeaah, I hope I never get that bad.

Right now the only NPC with the party I run is a paladin. He's got an ECL one higher than the party, and stuck with them for a couple tough fights. As a frontline fighter using a one-handed weapon and a shield without power attack, he's pretty pathetic in combat, but the party bard's been having a fling with him and his armor class is excellent. Plus, he's a gateway into 'high society', with an additional downside: he spent most of his skill points on knowledges that will probably never be useful to the party.

[valadil]

... but he just tells me to shut up and that she is "special".

That sentence is all you need. Seriously, the next time your DM says something like that, just pack up your dice, get up, and leave, possibly kicking the rat bastard square in the balls on the way out.

Or if that's too extreme, try something like "I don't care if she's special, she's making the game no fun for everyone who isn't special, namely us players!"

[Woot Spitum]

I have confronted the DM about this actually, and I told him that this character has abilities far beyond those of a 5th level character, but he just tells me to shut up and that she is "special". He does this a lot actually; in an epic level campaign he ran, there were 3 NPC party members who all seemed to be DMPCs. For example, the 24th level character who had a +18 Charisma. How can I get my point across to him that the players don't enjoy a game anymore when all of the NPCs make them look like chumps with their illegal abilities/stats/whatever?

Band together with your fellow PC's and murder said DMPC in her sleep.

[Voyager_I]

I would continue making diplomacy checks for a while, but if that fails (which they might, with new or stupid DM's), other options include:

a) Mass Intervention: Presumably all the players feel the same way about being extras in his personal Kung-Fu adventure. Get together and inform him of this. A cocky DM can brush off one player, but having your entire game threaten to walk off on you might get a message through.

b) Mass Exodus: If that fails, inform your DM that your group is quitting, and is going to start a new game with one of them as the DM, and which he is welcome to join in a role other than DM. Don't be vindictive or "show him how it feels", just don't let the guy behind the reins until he has a better idea of what he's supposed to be doing.

c) Allow his DMPC to die. Not the ideal route, but it can be satisfying. Whenever is DMPC is in trouble, decide something more important is happening. "Gee, I'd love to stabilize you, Mr. Ultra-Cool-Batman-Ninja, but I don't think it's safe until we've killed the thing that put you to -7...and checked the doors for more monsters, and looted its corpse, and searched fro traps in the hallway, and Coup de Grace'd you..." Of course, this probably won't work here, because it doesn't sound like this DMPC will ever be in a position to die without...

d) Actively kill his DMPC. Not subtle, but it does get a point across. But, once again, don't trust your DM to give you guys any chance of victory. If your new characters encounter a similar abomination (or the same Ninja), repeat until he gets it or you are victorious. Again, not optimal, not mature, but fun.

e) Pull the rails up under his plot train. You have to go on a secret mission? Sounds scary - probably safer to leave town instead. What's that? An obvious plothook? Well, turns out you're all allergic to Kobolds. In fact, you're really starting to miss your mother, who is definitely not a broken Ninja of any sort. Aww, Orcs burned down her village? Well, I guess you'll just have to bury your dead as best you can, then go contact the proper authorities. After all, it's obviously not safe there. Eventually, he might get it.


I wouldn't honestly recommend c, d, or e. However, if a doesn't work, b is probably the best option. Your friend probably isn't a jerk, he's just making the fatal flaw of new DM's, and happens to be a bit pig-headed about it. Show him the error of his ways by letting him know that nobody besides him is having fun, and that none of you are going to play with him if he doesn't stop.

And for the record, Acceleration does not work that way.

[ShadowSiege]

Ah, I know that sort of DM PC. Had a GM who would do that in any tabletop we played under him. We stopped playing with him after the exalted campaign resulted in our characters being helpless, unconscious, imprisoned or otherwise useless all the time. Quit playing under him, that is the only real route if he's out and out told you to "shut up" when you brought up the subject.

That said, DMPCs aren't always a detriment. Talanic's paladin is a good example. it's probably not hogging the spotlight, fills a party role, and if the players don't mind him, so be it.

[Ominous]

Get someone else to DM. Let the guy still be part of the group, if he wants, but he's not allowed to be a DM until he can keep from introducing Mary Sues.

[Darth Mario]

Yeah, basically everyone has hit the nail on the head. Your options are put up or get out. Sorry. I wouldn't recommend anything passive-aggressive, since he is already aware of the issue and won't do anything about it, subtly hinting at it is not going to work. Good luck either way.

[Indon]

Ah, I remember making some characters like that in my early gaming years. I've grown much since.

My most recent DMPC is generally ineffective in combat, and was in fact KO'ed in one shot in the first combat in the campaign he was in (head-butted by a Tyrant Lizard). Sometimes he gets his moments to shine, though. The party as a result developed somewhat of an interesting opinion of Sidereals, which the present Sidereal PC has not bothered to correct them on.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I have used a NPC that is sort of a DMPC. We were running a high powered game that was going to get into the 20's but start first level with 'uber' stats and magic items given to the PC's while starting out. I used a 'babysitter' to accompany the PC's as a guide through the early parts, that were literally a controlled test for them, and not upstage the PC's...but help whenever I made an encounter possibly a little too tough.

The NPC was capable of fantactic feats...but the NPC was also a young polymorphed dragon serving as guide as a favor to the king. The NPC was designed to allow the party to survive multiple encounters, have access to higher level buffs, and to 'tank' small time BBEG while the party took out his helpers (or the NPC takes on a hill giant alone while the others take on the other two...that sorta thing). Constantly holding back, and constantly on the alert to help out anyone who gets themselves in a tight spot (as this was the first campaign we ran under 3.0, it was very useful to have a babysitter as many goofed up thanks to new rules).

The real problem with any NPC party member is that anything the character says is interpreted by the party as if it is the word of the DM and not the thoughts of the character. As such, i always had to be VERY careful with what was said...lest they get the wrong idea. I kinda prepard for his and had them know damn near everything as part of a plot point that they would find out later. As such, when they asked...the reply they got was usually...'I cannot say. There are things that you must come to on your own. If you do not find such wisdom yourself...you will never be able to stand against what is to come."

[RukiTanuki]

Just joining the choir at this point. :)

* Your DM is running a character in your party.
* She's higher level than you.
* She cheated; she doesn't follow character creation guidelines and has powers inappropriate to her level.
* She plays a front-and-center role in your adventures.
* She surpasses many of the PCs at their core abilities.
* She pulls off stunts for which your DM would never let you roll, let alone succeed.

Failing any one of the above usually means your DM has failed The DMPC Test. So, bravo to your DM for providing a canonical example.

When people say "DMPC" in a negative way, this is what they mean. The short rule on DMPCs (i.e. party members controlled by the DM) is to avoid them at all costs. If introduced to aid a small party, the DMPC has one goal: to help the PCs do what they do better. To that effect, the DMPC will perform no action that outshines a PC's signature abilities. Under no circumstances should the DMPC serve as the "face" of the party.

The DMPC should be subject to the same rules as the PCs. This generally means creating them with the same rules the PCs use. If you feel like you just have to add some cool ability to them, you are very likely waltzing into Mary Sue territory. Consider the burden of proof (that you're not cheating because it's your character) on yourself. (I'm quite sorry, but "Shut up, she's special" only proves my point... and that attitude is exactly the kind of power-mongering that scares so many people away from this hobby.)

In a similar fashion, the DMPC should run the same risk of failure as the PCs. Would any of the PCs be able to pull off the stunt described? Mind you, I might let my players get away with that one... it's dramatic, exciting, and saves a PC from a pretty lame death for which they're not directly responsible. Someone's burning at least one action point, though. :) If your DM normally prohibits PCs from doing such things, but lets the DMPC do so effortlessly... it's a lost cause.

Anecdotes I've heard from many a player hint that enjoying playing under a Mary-Sue-loving DMPC is all but impossible. Changing the DM is more impossible; such a person has already put their enjoyment ahead of the players, and little will change their mind.

Find a new group, and make it clear to the DM on the exit that if you wanted to sir around and hear the adventures of Marysue McNinja and Her Slightly Less Awesome Friends, you'd have asked him to write you a book.

[blackspeeker]

Your entire party could commit hari kari as a form of protest, that would send a message. Sorry that's all I have. Actually you should threaten her with the hari kari, then all of you need to do it in character at the same time.

[Tengu]

I assume that's the same DM that came up when you posted about that reincarnation issue?

Don't play with this guy. Or alternatively, talk all the other PCs into ganging up on his DMNPC, kill her, and then quit.

[VanBuren]

I was just wondering if I was the only one who thinks that this character might be a little bit ludicrous. Fortunately, I am good at keeping my IC and OoC knowledge separate, so my DM allowed me a peek at one of the NPC sheets that he was particularly proud of and wanted a bit of input on. A few things I noticed: a human with a strength of 22 at 5th level, 10 points of ki as a 5th level ninja with a +4 Wis, a permanent 25% miss chance, more skill ranks than her class and intelligence modifier could possibly provide, and some feats that she shouldn't be able to have yet. Our party (aside from her) is 4th level. Ok, this is a powerful NPC with adjustments that the DM felt were appropriate or necessary. Still, a little ludicrous.

Then comes the in-game cheese. She has been tasked by some mysterious unknown party to make sure that our party (changeling ninja, human monk, human knight) stays alive while we complete our mission. OK, she is really good at what she does. At one point we had to board an airship that was casting off, and the gangplank was already lifted by the time I got to it, so I had to make a jump check (hooray for action points, a +4 Str, and ninja abilities) to grab onto the side of it. I make the jump, but a gnome with a crossbow knocks me unconscious before I can climb on. I am now at -3 and plummeting to my certain death 200 feet below, and OoC wondering what class my new character will be. This NPC JUMPS OFF THE AIRSHIP, catches me halfway down, and slams one of her magic knives into the side of the dock, slowing our descent . The monk lowers 150 ft of rope for her to climb while carrying my 117 lb body, and she does it almost effortlessly. I hereby call shenanigans!

Between this, and your DM trying to tell you how to roleplay your char, I'm going to conclude that he is perhaps quite terrible. I fully endorse the act of wandering off the railroad tracks.

But if you want to be mature, mass confrontation might be the best approach to start with.

[Just Alex]

Actually, I'm a fan of the Coup de Grace. Then, demand xp for the deceased DMPC. Of course, make sure that the unusually high stats, gear, and skills raises the CR to an appropriate level.

[kemmotar]

Actually i'm pro killing this annoying DMPC...Also if your DM is the kind that would fudge rolls in order to save the uber ninja, then ask that he rolls outside the DM screen... logically even if it's one or two CR above you, if you work as a party you should be able to win. Ambush him, or retreat while you're fighting some monsters so he gets gankd...Then if he kills all the monsters finish him(he should have at least lost some HP)...now claim xp for both the dead monsters and the ninja(afterall he was part of the party )

The key word here being was...anyway if he doesn't even get hit by the monsters simply tell the DM that if the DMPC doesn't die he can play the campaign by himself since you're obviously not needed for this...

Maybe you can also use all your action points(if playing eberron...) or you could metagame...ninjas have weak will saves....dominate him or use a nice combo...hold person and then close their nose and mouth...or use suggestion "dive into the river and do not resist my spell, it will be a beneficial one" now cast hold person while he's under the water...

[Neek]

... wow. That's just messed up.

I build DMPCs all the time; they're the kind of characters I'd love to play, but never got a chance to. So far, the "worst" one I made was a scout. The party was CL 1, and she acted as a guide to the dwarven mining village that got overrun by what they thought were orcs (turned out to be goblins). She was built using an elite array, while the PCs were built with 3d6 down the line. That was the worst of it. She was also the party's cook... but then later, she got killed off. In another campaign that my friend DMs in, we have a halfling rogue wielding a whip riding some awesome breed of war-dog, the dog's more of a DMPC than the halfling, but we're okay with it.

He checks with us, as I check with the players, to see if they're okay with it. With Athala (the scout), they liked her in the party. She not only helped with combat, but also helped with railroading the plot (which is not something my players minded; they didn't like being forced into quests, but to finish quests with limited information... she helped).

My worst experience with a DMPC was back in 2e, when my DM was playing FFVIII--he had a badass, near-epic character based off of Squall rend dragons into two. The other thing that made it cool was when he cut a hole into a red dragon's stomach, and my brother jumped up, cut through the creature's innards and stabbed its heart. The thing that kills a DMPC is a PC who rolls ridiculously, and makes up silly freakin' things (of course, our DM played with a "20 auto-succeeds on everything," and if you say something crazy, he wants it to be backed up by dice rolling.)

This is just messed up, though. There's a difference between DMing an NPC that you want to play than an NPC that can't be played because no DM's not an idiot enough to break the rules.

[Behold_the_Void]

Just leave. No good can come of this.

[Tengu]

My worst experience with a DMPC was back in 2e, when my DM was playing FFVIII--he had a badass, near-epic character based off of Squall rend dragons into two. The other thing that made it cool was when he cut a hole into a red dragon's stomach, and my brother jumped up, cut through the creature's innards and stabbed its heart. The thing that kills a DMPC is a PC who rolls ridiculously, and makes up silly freakin' things (of course, our DM played with a "20 auto-succeeds on everything," and if you say something crazy, he wants it to be backed up by dice rolling.)

God. I don't know what's worse here - the DMNPC, or the fact that he's based of, from all things on the Earth, Squall.

[Frosty]

She was built using an elite array, while the PCs were built with 3d6 down the line.

Oh Twelve Gods...WHY?

[VanBuren]

God. I don't know what's worse here - the DMNPC, or the fact that he's based of, from all things on the Earth, Squall.

Better Squall than Cloud, if you ask me.

[Tengu]

Better Squall than Cloud, if you ask me.

Depends. Squall ripoffs are much less common, but Cloud is much cooler (which is probably the reason why is he ripped off so often). Squall is the most annoying RPG main character I've played, unless you choose Duran or Angela as your first character in Seiken Densetsu 3.