Wonderous Items: Why Craft (Anything Else)?

[Burley]

I just posted something about our favorite items to use, and it got me to thinkin': If I can throw just about any spell effect onto just about anything with Craft Wonderous Item, why wouldn't I be able to create practically everything?
I could find a point rock and Craft Wonderous Pointy Rock of Silence, tie it to a stick and I've got an arrow that confers silence on somebody until they dig the arrowhead out of their flesh. And, after reading the premade items over and over, it's pretty obvious that you can tweak spells around to fit your needs. Instead of having a 20-ft radius, I could say "Anything or anybody in direct contact is affected by the Pointy Rock of Sillence" That adds an extra function to being sneaky, right?

Basically, other than a DM, what keeps me from creating Wonderous Items that are identical to rings (Amulets), weapons and armor (Pointy rocks and pieces of wood), and potions (ceramic tiles or pieces of fruit)?

[AKA_Bait]

Basically, other than a DM, what keeps me from creating Wonderous Items that are identical to rings (Amulets), weapons and armor (Pointy rocks and pieces of wood), and potions (ceramic tiles or pieces of fruit)?

That there are different mechanical feats required to make them? I should think it's pretty explicit.

You could make a 'ring' for example, but it wouldn't use your ring slot and would cost as much as an unslotted item.

As for the weapons and armor, unless they actually were weapons and armor they would not confer the benifits thereof. i.e. the 'armor' wouldn't provide any armor bonus and cost as much as an unslotted item. A weapon would be at the -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon, since there is in practice a world of diffrence bettween a crafted arrow and a pointy rock on a stick.

[GryffonDurime]

Not much. Granted, you'll pay out the nose for the benefit of your Wondrous Items. Things that occupy a specific slot like Rings are going to have to be either an unusual slot pricing or a no-slot orbital. Charged wondrous items, I believe, are costlier than wands or staves, since anyone can use them. Likewise, making a wondrous weapon is a difficult but not impossible task...I imagine you could have a hilt of continuous Fire Blade or the like, and then have a glove of Greater Magic Weapon.

But again, you'll pay out the nose for it.

[Telonius]

Time and XP. How many of these rocks are you going to make? Plus, that would almost certainly count as an "improvised weapon."

It'll be awfully quiet in your party if you keep one of them in your pocket.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Time and XP. How many of these rocks are you going to make? Plus, that would almost certainly count as an "improvised weapon."

As described, I am fairly certain the weapon would not work.

It'll be awfully quiet in your party if you keep one of them in your pocket.

The pocket will block line of effect.

[Keld Denar]

It'll be awfully quiet in your party if you keep one of them in your pocket.

Quiver of Elhonna? Items in extra dimensional spaces don't have eminations.

Also, Craft Rod is AMAZING for any hardcore caster. Metamagic Rods are like candy. Their utility and versitlity make spell list planning a lot easier. Rods of Chaining are great for the random times you need em. Lesser Rods of Quicken and Extend are great for a few very notable buffs. A Rod of Empower can go a long way. Also, you can apply Metamagic to a spell before using a Rod. An Empowered RoEnfeeble is a 3rd level spell. Apply a Lesser Rod of Maximize to it for optimal str penalty. The combinations of spells, feats, and rods are limitless, if you have enough rods, and that's what Craft Rod helps you get. Get a bandoleer with rods tied to it so you can grab em and drop em at will without worrying about losing them.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

potions (ceramic tiles or pieces of fruit)?

It should be noted that any source that suggests the use of ceramic tiles or pieces of fruit as substitutes for potions suggests that such items either get their own feat or (more reasonably) use Brew Potion.

By any recommendation of alternative magic items, Scribe Scroll becomes "Craft Spell Completion Item", Brew Potion becomes "Craft Spell Storage Item Anyone Can Use", Craft Wand becomes "Craft Single Spell Trigger Item", and Craft Staff becomes "Craft Multiple Spell Trigger Item." In other words, function determines the necessary feat, not form.

[Burley]

Likewise, making a wondrous weapon is a difficult but not impossible task...I imagine you could have a hilt of continuous Fire Blade or the like, and then have a glove of Greater Magic Weapon.

Why not just have a Scabbard that holds no weapon, but motioning as though you were pulling a blade from it activates a Fire Blade spell. It counts as the same action as drawing a weapon, and the blade stays until the end of the round you draw it. Activations: Unlimited, usable at-will.
It'd just be at least 1d8+1 fire damage, which is a +1 Longsword's worth of damage for a medium creature. But, it's even better because it's a melee touch attack. Maybe not great for something with high strength, but a rogue could make wonderful use of it, yes? (Catching them flat-footed and without their armor bonus...that pretty much gives them 10 AC).
And, it seems so over-powered now, but it's competely within the rules, no?

I'm not really good with numbers and I'm at work and don't have a lot of time to look stuff up, but (based on the level of the spell Fire Blade) this would be a Minor Wondrous Item. The most expensive Minor Wondrous is the Periapt of Health (SRD) at 7400 gp, half of which is 3700 gp out of pocket to make it. A +1 longsword is 2315gp (I believe), and, if we add in the cost of it doing fire damage as a spell (negating damage reduction), and the cost of it becoming a melee touch attack instead of regular melee... The prices are about the same, right? I would imagine the real weapon would actually cost a lot more than the Wondrous item, but I can't find any enchantments to replicate those extra effects.

So, I think I just made a better item with a 3rd level feat than could be made with a 5th level feat, for less time and less money.

I promise I won't argue if you can show me where I'm not able to make the Scabbard of Flaming Blades.
And, I'll thank you with a hug if you could correctly price out the Scabbard of Flaming Blades or the actual longsword I just described with all those abilities, just to clarify/contradict my idea.

(PS-I'm sorry I spelled "Wondrous" wrong. I went stupid for a bit.)

[horseboy]

Hmm, Given the Precedence of the Mattock of the Titans is a Wondrous Item, I could see where theoretically it would be possible. The true test is will the DM allow it. If so, go for it.

[lord_khaine]

I promise I won't argue if you can show me where I'm not able to make the Scabbard of Flaming Blades.
And, I'll thank you with a hug if you could correctly price out the Scabbard of Flaming Blades or the actual longsword I just described with all those abilities, just to clarify/contradict my idea.

it would proberly be possibel for you to make the scabbard, but the price would be very high, if you look in the DMG, page 282 under; Behind the curtain: Magic item gold piece values, then it says that the formula for pricing magical items is only a guideline, and that the final value should be adjustet by the dm.

Pointy Rock of Silence, tie it to a stick and I've got an arrow that confers silence on somebody until they dig the arrowhead out of their flesh

by the rules arrows dont stick into the flesh of people, as long as the target has hp then he is assumed to dodge out of the way at the last moment, or only get a minor cut from a near miss.

[AKA_Bait]

Why not just have a Scabbard that holds no weapon, but motioning as though you were pulling a blade from it activates a Fire Blade spell. It counts as the same action as drawing a weapon, and the blade stays until the end of the round you draw it. Activations: Unlimited, usable at-will.
It'd just be at least 1d8+1 fire damage, which is a +1 Longsword's worth of damage for a medium creature. But, it's even better because it's a melee touch attack. Maybe not great for something with high strength, but a rogue could make wonderful use of it, yes? (Catching them flat-footed and without their armor bonus...that pretty much gives them 10 AC).
And, it seems so over-powered now, but it's competely within the rules, no?

Well, factor in that you could never full attack...

And, I'll thank you with a hug if you could correctly price out the Scabbard of Flaming Blades or the actual longsword I just described with all those abilities, just to clarify/contradict my idea.

Well... second level spell, third level caster, use activated, uncustomary space limitation... (2 x 3 x 1.5 x 2,000) = 18,000. It's only 12,000 if you don't think that it's a uncustomary space limitation.

As far as I know, there is no equivalent ability that makes a melee weapon only require a touch attack other than Brilliant Energy which is a +4 Bonus. So, 32k plus the price of a masterwork longsword is roughly 33k or so. So little less than double.

That actually seems about right to me considering the flameblade item will never do more than 1d8 points of damage in a round since you can't add your stregnth bonus, full attack (and get full sneak attack for a rogue), and it does only fire damage (which many a thing has Resistence 10 to).

Where's my hug?

[Starbuck_II]

Why not just have a Scabbard that holds no weapon, but motioning as though you were pulling a blade from it activates a Fire Blade spell. It counts as the same action as drawing a weapon, and the blade stays until the end of the round you draw it. Activations: Unlimited, usable at-will.
It'd just be at least 1d8+1 fire damage, which is a +1 Longsword's worth of damage for a medium creature. But, it's even better because it's a melee touch attack. Maybe not great for something with high strength, but a rogue could make wonderful use of it, yes? (Catching them flat-footed and without their armor bonus...that pretty much gives them 10 AC).
And, it seems so over-powered now, but it's competely within the rules, no?

Funny idea, but no. You base it on spell and what it does. Not just compare.
The closest matches are Chill Touch dagger in MIC, but your criteria is different.
Chill Touch dagger:
Only deals 1d6 +1 str (save negate for str damage). As many attacks as you can make as touch. Undead take no damage instead flee (panicked DC same as str for non-undead).
DC is only 11 I think so unlikely to work often. Cost 6K. So you flame blade will be at least 6K. Granted, they used 5th level caster so dispelled less often.

And, yes, a Rogue can sneak attack with it.

Differences:
You want a scabbard, not a flaming blade effect like Chill Touch dagger. You want it to last 1 round, why one round? Why not 3? It is 2nd level spell, thus 3 rounds minimum.
Otherwise, you use up a move action each round to reactivate.

I'm not really good with numbers and I'm at work and don't have a lot of time to look stuff up, but (based on the level of the spell Fire Blade) this would be a Minor Wondrous Item. The most expensive Minor Wondrous is the Periapt of Health (SRD) at 7400 gp, half of which is 3700 gp out of pocket to make it. A +1 longsword is 2315gp (I believe), and, if we add in the cost of it doing fire damage as a spell (negating damage reduction), and the cost of it becoming a melee touch attack instead of regular melee... The prices are about the same, right? I would imagine the real weapon would actually cost a lot more than the Wondrous item, but I can't find any enchantments to replicate those extra effects.

So, I think I just made a better item with a 3rd level feat than could be made with a 5th level feat, for less time and less money.

I promise I won't argue if you can show me where I'm not able to make the Scabbard of Flaming Blades.
And, I'll thank you with a hug if you could correctly price out the Scabbard of Flaming Blades or the actual longsword I just described with all those abilities, just to clarify/contradict my idea.

(PS-I'm sorry I spelled "Wondrous" wrong. I went stupid for a bit.)

I'll accept a hug.

Well... second level spell, third level caster, use activated (2 x 3 x 2,000) = 12,000, but duration measured in rounds. So x4.
So 48, 000 gp.
Granted, this version lasts 3 rounds, minimum caster. Activations: Unlimited, usable at-will.
So got that part.

Now in comparison, we will compare to the dagger.
1 x 5 x2000 = 10000. Not measured in rounds so no multiplier.
In order to get 6K, we need to divide by 1.6.

First Method:
So 48, 000 divided by 1.6= 30, 000. A little expensive, but it is a touch attack and allows a full attack (one the rounds after activation).

Or if we must have 1 round duration: I think we can grant a discount since 1/3rd the duration. Now the amount of discount is hard to judge. I say knock off 10K (since we are using 1/3rd).
So 20, 000 gp.

Second method:
48, 000 reduce duration removes 1/3rd leaving 32, 000

Now divide by 1.6= 20, 000.

Either method says 20, 000.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Otherwise, you use up a move action each round to reactivate.

Nah, as written, just take Quick Draw, and you're all set.

[Yami]

Hugs to all?

I honestly usually only grab craft wonderous, just because it's one of the earliest to take for all those fixing. Not to mention I love cloaks.

And you can make things like boots of expeditious retreat. Continious use activated. And for cheaper than boots o' springing and striding. (I find normal movement speeds to be an insult to travelers everywhere. And yet oddly, our travels never seem to go any faster; stupid "temple is a week away" measuring system.)

[horseboy]

As far as I know, there is no equivalent ability that makes a melee weapon only require a touch attack other than Brilliant Energy which is a +4 Bonus. So, 32k plus the price of a masterwork longsword is roughly 33k or so. So little less than double.

Deft Strike? Comp Ad 106. Course that's a feat and not a magic ability.

[Enzario]

GASPGOGGLEWHAHUH?

I believe there is an answer to this question.

It's called an Artificer.

[LibraryOgre]

http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/14970.html

That's why I prefer that method.

[John Campbell]

Hmm, Given the Precedence of the Mattock of the Titans is a Wondrous Item, I could see where theoretically it would be possible. The true test is will the DM allow it. If so, go for it.

The mattock and maul of the titans both require both Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

[Jack_Simth]

I just posted something about our favorite items to use, and it got me to thinkin': If I can throw just about any spell effect onto just about anything with Craft Wonderous Item, why wouldn't I be able to create practically everything?
I could find a point rock and Craft Wonderous Pointy Rock of Silence, tie it to a stick and I've got an arrow that confers silence on somebody until they dig the arrowhead out of their flesh. And, after reading the premade items over and over, it's pretty obvious that you can tweak spells around to fit your needs. Instead of having a 20-ft radius, I could say "Anything or anybody in direct contact is affected by the Pointy Rock of Sillence" That adds an extra function to being sneaky, right?

Basically, other than a DM, what keeps me from creating Wonderous Items that are identical to rings (Amulets), weapons and armor (Pointy rocks and pieces of wood), and potions (ceramic tiles or pieces of fruit)?

1) The name of the silly table that everyone gets the "rules" from is : "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" (Emphasis added). They're rough guidelines, and the estimates don't necessarily reflect the actual value of the item. For the classic example, see the widget of Use-Activated True Strike; it's estimated at 2,000 gp, slotted, yet it's more useful to a melee character with power attack in a melee than is a +10 sword (and it stacks with said +10 sword).
2) Then it stops and emphasizes in the text:
"Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls." (emphasis added)
3) That section is in the DMG, not the PHB - they're primarily rules for DM's, not players. "No custom magic items" isn't actually a house-rule, just a campaign option. Technically, the variant is letting players make custom magic items.

[Kami2awa]

Time and XP. How many of these rocks are you going to make? Plus, that would almost certainly count as an "improvised weapon."

It'll be awfully quiet in your party if you keep one of them in your pocket.

Pardon?

:P

[Cuddly]

Also, Craft Rod is AMAZING for any hardcore caster. Metamagic Rods are like candy. Their utility and versitlity make spell list planning a lot easier. Rods of Chaining are great for the random times you need em. Lesser Rods of Quicken and Extend are great for a few very notable buffs. A Rod of Empower can go a long way. Also, you can apply Metamagic to a spell before using a Rod. An Empowered RoEnfeeble is a 3rd level spell. Apply a Lesser Rod of Maximize to it for optimal str penalty. The combinations of spells, feats, and rods are limitless, if you have enough rods, and that's what Craft Rod helps you get. Get a bandoleer with rods tied to it so you can grab em and drop em at will without worrying about losing them.

Except the CL of metamagic rods are 17,which is usually much higher than the power level most games are at.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Except the CL of metamagic rods are 17,which is usually much higher than the power level most games are at.

The CL listed for magic items is not a requirement for creation, it is simply the standard CL for any such item found.

Any required CL will be noted in the item description or in the general rules for that type of item.

[Burley]

I tried to post Huggies last night...and I failed. All of you who deserve huggies, and anybody who wants them:

Huggies. Big'uns.

Really quick: You don't have to burn your move action to activate the weapon. Drawing a weapon is a move action, or can be done as part of a move action (I think you have to move 10ft, though).
I decided on making it active for only one round, because I didn't want to give the person wielding it easy attacks of opportunity, unless they ready the action. It's supposed to be a lower level item. Most lower level items that have great abilites come with some drawbacks, or should. The fact that this is a "weapon" that anybody can use...it needs a set back. You lose extra BAB attacks, AoO, and you'll have to fight strategically if you want to use it effectively (moving wisely and whatnot).
I'm not saying that Wondrous Items should have as much power as magic weapon, and obviously this item doesn't stand up to a flaming sword, but, it is an effective and useful item.

Thanks for all your input...and I hope more people chime in, either to argue/agree with other people's points, or to just throw in something about Item Creation feats that could be fulfilled by another feat.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Really quick: You don't have to burn your move action to activate the weapon. Drawing a weapon is a move action, or can be done as part of a move action (I think you have to move 10ft, though).

No such restriction, but...

Moving 5 ft and drawing a weapon as a single move action would potentially provoke an AoO for movement, whereas taking a 5ft. step and then drawing the weapon as a separate move action wouldn't. Both cases require the same level of effort. And there's really no difference between them other than the AoO thing. In any case, your attack routine is still restricted to a single standard attack.

But as I said earlier: Quick Draw FTW.

[Starbuck_II]

Pardon?

:P

Silence rock= silence effect thus no noise in party.

[Crimson Avenger]

If you go to the WotC site, you should look up what Andy Collins has to say on a True Strike item. He prices it somewhere around 200K. With good reason.

Not all WI are slotted. The MIC has a large tool section, cute gadgets that don't take up a slotted space, and are relatively cheap.

As for the boots of Ex Retreat, there is a reason that they change the prerequ from Ex Retreat to Longstrider. The 30ft enhancement gives you to much tactical advantage for the cost. Someone decided that 10 ft at that price was a better fit, and I have to agree. In combat, movement is king. The group that moves the fastest, wins.

I disagree with what the IMC did to Boots of Skating. Still worth 7,000 gp, but they cut the movement down from 15 ft to 10 ft, double if you're going down hill, no bonus if you're going up hill. Now the item costs to much for the benfit you get. If anything, I believe the case could be made that this is now the 2,000 gp item.

The biggest issue against using craft: WI to fill out all of your needs is the cost. Most items will cost you double, or more, and things like armor and weapons can't be crafted without Craft: Armor/ Weapons. You could craft a necklace that adds Luck, Sacred, Profane, Natural, Morale, ect to your armor class, but not enhancement (the cheapest), because you can only add enhancement bonuses onto armor. And who wants the WI Pointy Stick of Doom, when you take a -4 for improvised weapons and can't add an enhancement bonus to hit or damage because it isn't a weapon.

Whew, that took a while to get to my point. WI: Good, but not that good.

[Roderick_BR]

Using your arrow as an example:
You could make a stone with silence with that silences only it's target. But if it's a 20' area, you have a chance of silencing the target even if you miss it directly.
And you could make the stone tied to the arrow, but the arrow itself wouldn't count as a magic weapon, and it wouldn't be balanced, as people pointed out, taking maybe a -4 to attack rolls.
The idea of craft(anything else) is that it uses special rules for special effects. You need to enchant a weapon or armor? Craft Woundrous Item won't be enough. Store magic into a piece of wood? You need craft wand. Craft Woundrous Item won't work.
Likewise, an item that enhances your natural armor, without being an actual armor? You can have it as a ring (with craft ring) or the original amulet of natural armor, that requires craft woundrous itens, since craft weapons and armors won't work.