Bloodlines-worth it?

[SoD]

I've been looking at the bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana-basically taking, at various points, one or more levels in 'bloodline' which, basically, gives you various abilities at various stages in character points. However, every level in bloodline...you get-the bloodline stuff. You do not get-hit points, skill points, increased saves, class benefits from previous classes. However, for calculating DCs that rely on class levels, it counts as a class level.

[Zincorium]

No, generally they are nowhere near worth it, for the same reason as LA is generally nowhere near worth it. Unless you take a poor class, class abilities are just too powerful to be worth a trade off.

The only exception would be the titan bloodline, due to the use oversized weapon ability.

Everything else, you're sacrificing the abilities of whatever class you have, whether it's skills, survivability, hitting things, or casting spells. You're permanently behind, and for the most part the gains from a bloodline are usurped by magical items or class features anyway.

[Kurald Galain]

However, there are a number of bloodline feats (i.e. you're using a series of feats, not levels, to indicate your blood powers) from the Complete Mage and Complete Arcane, some of which are worth it.

For instance, Fey Bloodline stacks nicely with warlocks.

[RTGoodman]

They generally don't seem worth it, but I have been thinking about making a campaign where all the PCs get one for free. Once they get to the correct level, they just get the stuff (without knowing why), and each one has some significance that could impact the campaign or at least provide a basis for adventures.

[Darrin]

However, for calculating DCs that rely on class levels, it counts as a class level.

Bloodline levels were designed to improve the effectiveness of spellcasters who were losing caster levels due to multiclassing. In that regard, they just aren't all that useful compared to sticking with full non-multiclassed spellcaster. If you've dinged up your caster level by multiclassing, you're generally better off taking Practiced Spellcaster.

There are a few examples, however, where Bloodlines are extremely effective... in fact, so effective that most people consider them broken. A class ability based on your class level, for example, such as War Weaver... bloodline levels allow a War Weaver to increase the spell level of spells he can weave into his eldritch tapestry.

The most egregious example of Bloodline Abuse would be with Martial Adept classes from Tome of Battle, particularly if you make a lot of 1-level dips to increase your Initiator Level (IL). IL = martial adept levels + 1/2 non-martial adept levels, and a Bloodline level increases your IL by 1 for every martial adept level you have, + 0.5 for every non-martial adept level, and an additional + 0.5 for the Bloodline level itself. This means you can qualify for 9th level maneuvers as early as 10th level.

Mechanically, they're a bit klunky. Fluffwise, the Bloodline feats from the Dragon Compendium do a better job of adding a "my grandmother totally nailed a <blank> in the sack!" flavor to your sorcerer without dinging up your effectiveness.

[Lord Tataraus]

They generally don't seem worth it, but I have been thinking about making a campaign where all the PCs get one for free. Once they get to the correct level, they just get the stuff (without knowing why), and each one has some significance that could impact the campaign or at least provide a basis for adventures.

I tried that once but it didn't work out very well. The players kept on forgetting it all and it slowed stuff down. After that the only bloodlines we use are the feats.

[Person_Man]

Generally, they are not worth it.

Although Darrin correctly points out some cases of weird multi-classing math where they would be worth it, no DM that I know would allow such abuse, just as they wouldn't allow Ur Priest or Nar Demonbinder abuse.

If you want your PC to have an X bloodline, I suggest that you just announce that you are descended from X, and that your hair/skin/voice/etc reflect that. There's no need to screw yourself over with poor mechanics to improve your roleplaying experience.

[sonofzeal]

I think the overall answer is: They're underpowered, but if they work for your character then great. The feats and abilities they grant aren't exceptional, but if you need a particular one in your build and can't squeeze it in otherwise, it might be worth it. The major Fey or Vampire bloodlines may be worth it for a high level unarmed character (Druid works too) who expects to fight many Demons or Devils respectively, since your natural weapons overcomes DR of the same type as your own. There's other ways to get Cold Iron or Silver DR, but few good ones IIRC.

I actually run with slightly different rules for bloodline - they function as levels with 0's for everything (d0 hp, 0+int skillpoints, +0 Bab, +0 saves). This means you still get Con and other bonuses to HP, and still gain some skillpoints, and your HD counts as one higher for any important effect. This is in addition to the RAW abilities of the class. Not a huge change, but makes the whole thing slightly more palatable.

[Aerogoat]

They're underpowered in normal play.
They're utterly broken in fully optimized play.
So no, They're probably not worth it.

[SoD]

@ Sonofzeal-the way that you did it, d0, 0+int, is how I think it should be. I'll mention it to my DM (I'll still probably not end up playing with a bloodline, but maybe for later use?).

[CASTLEMIKE]

Post Edit: Was mistaken regarding the pay down rules but they are still worth it although it depends on the class of the PC, the level of the PC (For a build or high level game) and the duration of the PC game.

[dragonseth]

Yes they can be very good depending on how the PC pays them down since they use a different mechanic than standard LA buydown and the PC normally picks the Bloodline and when he chooses to pay it off. Particularly with a high level L20 - 200,000 exp build a PC could have a Major Blood line and a +1 LA template paid off and still be level 20 or L19 with a Major bloodline and a +2LA template paid off.

A minor bloodline could be paid down from level 1 to 2 for 1,000 exp for a build.

Major are very good if bought down early in a high level build say at levels 2, 3, and 4.

You can't buy off bloodline levels. They are levels, not LA.

[Aerogoat]

And if you never plan on reaching level 12 (a lot of groups don't), a Minor Bloodline is always worth it.

[dragonseth]

And if you never plan on reaching level 12 (a lot of groups don't), a Minor Bloodline is always worth it.

Good point. I've never thought of that, actually. I should use this...

*yoink*

[CASTLEMIKE]

You can't buy off bloodline levels. They are levels, not LA.

Thanks for that catch. It actually makes them great for Sorcerers and short game builds that don't incorporate the -20% experience point penalty.

[Erk]

I actually really like the little quirks bloodlines introduce into a character. To encourage them in my campaigns I usually alter the rules so that they don't permanently drain max levels, as I agree they aren't worth that. In one campaign I made them cost feats at certain levels, which worked OK, and in another campaign I made them drain XP, slowing the bloodline character's advancement but not stopping it permanently. Since my games don't usually run to level 20 and don't start over level 3, the slower advancement did set the bloodline characters apart from the others.

Then again, my PCs are not obsessed, or even really concerned, with optimisation, so we just play with rules that look like they will be fun. Yay, my PCs!

[Prometheus]

I played a character with a major bloodline and I felt like it really dragged him down.

I did once have a character that wanted angel wings. I ruled that if she took the major celestial bloodline, than I'd allow her to get them upon reaching level 20. She seemed quite happy with it.

Besides blatant rule changes like that, I also rp that bloodlines give the creature special connections or uniqueness to them.

[Kantolin]

To be fair, if your whole party has bloodlines, they can be somewhat interesting - if they're equivalent for everyone, then no real harm done there.

It can also work with your DM ignoring the required 'bloodline' levels, and simply playing a slightly more powerful game.

Otherwise, though, I agree with the above sentiments: Not worth it mechanically unless your game isn't going to level 12.