What's with War Priest?

[bbugg]

What's up with the entry requirements for a War Priest??

I have a stout little dwarven cleric of Hanseath who likes to drink beer and bash heads. See This Thread - I followed Person_Man's advice. I quite like the build; Torrad's a feisty bugger with a big axe.

So now I want a prestiege class and War Priest looks like it fits the bill. But take a look at the entry requirements: 8 ranks in Diplomacy and 5 ranks in Sense Motive. Doesn't look too bad, but Sense Motive is cross-class and clerics only get 2+int skill points. In my case, that's 2 skill points per level. If I put them all in Sense Motive and Diplomacy, that's level 9 by the time I have the bloody skills needed. And it doesn't really make sense to invest in those for a head basher.

If I take a 1 level dip in Rogue or Scout or something, I can get it MUCH faster, but those just don't make any sense either. Am I missing something, or are those really restrictive requirements??

[Kyeudo]

Last I checked, War Priest sucks as a prestige class. Look at Divine Oracle. You can usualy get into that PrC and it comes with nice class features.

[bbugg]

Thing is, I'm a head drunk basher, not a contemplative oracle... It has to make sense to take it.

I'm not too concerned with optimising - my party isn't particularly optimized and I don't really want to outshine the rest of the party.

[Dr Bwaa]

I've also always thought Warpriest was a really awkward class, both because of the requirements and because the class itself is not really what I wanted (for my cleric in a 1340s Europe + magic + demons-as-of-five-years-ago campaign that my friend is running). He's an Irish kid who grew up Catholic and is now a priest, and has always envisioned himself as an Archangel, smiting all before him with a holy avenger (basically, he's a paladin with no regard for law, just NG) so he wants healing spells and spells to summon the apocalypse on his enemies--but he wants to be there, smiting them, too. So I looked into the warpriest class, and while he does meet the requirements, it's not what he's looking for. the solution? I talked to the DM and he and I homebrewed a little PrC for him called Demon Hunter, which is exactly right. Long story short: that's my advice. I hvaen't found anything more suitable than warpriest (though I hear there's one in Complete Champion that's similar, if not broken)

[Dark Tira]

Actually, can't you meet the skill requirement at level 7? Max ranks 10 with 5 for cross-class, right?

[BRC]

Character Concept>Optimisation in my opinion.
Do you have your backstory set in stone already? maybe you were a street urchin (justifying a level in rogue) before the preists took you in. So you get those nifty first-level-rogue-skill points. It's not the most optimised build out there, but it gets you the skills you need. Plus it gets you sneak attack and trapfinding (which never hurt).

[kkortekaas]

(i'm his DM)

The Pint's of Fury (his scrappy band of heroes) just hit level 4, and old Torrad has gone from group leader to more like a second in command. bbug and I have looked at possibly converting the paladin, but it doesn't really fit Hanseath's ethos.

[bbugg]

Yeah, sorry, I should have mentioned that I just got level 4.

If I'm going into War Priest, I should take a level of Scout or Rogue, but that just seem contraditory.

[Tengu]

Last I checked, War Priest sucks as a prestige class.

I agree. You lose 5 caster levels! Who needs full BAB when you can cast Divine Might anyway? You're better off as just an ordinary cleric.

Character Concept>Optimisation in my opinion.

These two are not self-contradictory.

[Dr Bwaa]

you could always ask kkortekaas to waive those requirements (possibly in exchange for something else, a feat/weapon prof/something) since they're not very sensible anyway.

[BRC]

I agree. You lose 5 caster levels! Who needs full BAB when you can cast Divine Might anyway? You're better off as just an ordinary cleric.



These two are not self-contradictory.

In some situations they are, especially situatiosn that start with "So I'm thinking of making a monk"

[Rutee]

I agree. You lose 5 caster levels! Who needs full BAB when you can cast Divine Might anyway? You're better off as just an ordinary cleric.

As a cleric, isn't he better optimized by default then the majority of classes, even if he loses 5 CLs?

[Powerfamiliar]

You could check out the ordained champion in complete champion. They are deity restricted, but that's easy to house rule away. The class fits a head basher cleric very well, just make sure to pick a deity with axe as favored weapon and war domain access or you might be wasting a feat or two.

From the description:

Your entire being is devoted to war—war in the name of your deity, war in the name of your favored cause, even war in the name of war itself. Your focus on warfare has slowed your spellcasting advancement, but the wide variety of martial powers you have gained has more than made up for that lack.

[Tengu]

In some situations they are, especially situatiosn that start with "So I'm thinking of making a monk"

Swordsage.

As a cleric, isn't he better optimized by default then the majority of classes, even if he loses 5 CLs?

That's true, but why bother putting extra effort in doing something that basically serves no meaning but to hurt you in the long run?

[kkortekaas]

you could always ask kkortekaas to waive those requirements (possibly in exchange for something else, a feat/weapon prof/something) since they're not very sensible anyway.

Bbug, take note. I accept sexual favors

[bbugg]

I'll take a look at that, Powerfamiliar.

Hanseath has both of those. That's how I got my big axe, as a matter of fact.

[Aerogoat]

Bards also have a hard time entering Paladin Prestige classes; I don't see the problem.

And wouldn't a level or two of Swashbuckler or Urban Ranger work?

And the Cityscape web enhancement lets you trade Survival for Sense Motive on your class skills list.

(i'm his DM)

The Pint's of Fury (his scrappy band of heroes) just hit level 4, and old Torrad has gone from group leader to more like a second in command. bbug and I have looked at possibly converting the paladin, but it doesn't really fit Hanseath's ethos.

If you support him entering the class, why don't you just change the entry requirements? It's really not that big of a deal: the class is a lot worse than normal Cleric levels would be.

[Rutee]

That's true, but why bother putting extra effort in doing something that basically serves no meaning but to hurt you in the long run?

If it fits the character better and makes it ieasier to not embarrass the non-casters, that'd be a good reason.

[Tengu]

If it fits the character better and makes it ieasier to not embarrass the non-casters, that'd be a good reason.

Well, it's not that I can forbid anyone to do so. But the fluff of ordinary cleric is already pretty warrioresque to me - if that was a healbot class, it'd have less BAB, proficiencies, and lower hit die. Like cloistered cleric.

[Runolfr]

If I take a 1 level dip in Rogue or Scout or something, I can get it MUCH faster, but those just don't make any sense either. Am I missing something, or are those really restrictive requirements??

Talk to your DM about the requirements, then. There are plenty of PrCs that I, as a DM, think have inappropriate requirements. Especially if you're not looking to break the game by min/max-ing somehow, your DM may cut the reqs or change them to something more sensible.

[Fax Celestis]

You could meet requirements by taking a level of Prestige Paladin.

[Person_Man]

Well, its the height of pretension to quote myself, but here I go anyway:

As for build, I say stay simple. Cleric X/PrC Y. Any PrC that gives you full caster progression will be fine.

War Priest only has 5/10 caster progression. Thus I would suggest avoiding entirely.

You're on the cusp of getting access to third level spells (Fly, Magic Circle Against Evil, Wind Wall, Invisibility Purge) and not very far from the critically important fourth level spells (Dimension Door, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement). And after that, the sky is the limit in terms of your potential. And that's just using core only spells without any metamagic.

Just think about it. A vanilla Cleric 7 with the Travel and War domains, you can hold your own on the front line of combat against pretty much any threat, heal yourself spontaneously if you're hit too hard, and teleport away if you're close to death. You can counter basically anything thats thrown at you, and buff yourself to be more effective then most full BAB classes. Heck, Divine Power by itself is worth more then most abilities that a prestige class can offer. Access to higher level spells is entirely dependent on your caster level, and all of your spells scale according to your caster level. From a purely crunch perspective, its a very poor idea for most full casters to give up caster levels for almost any reason.

If you want to do that for character reasons, you should. I never argue with character development. But if you want to you can be a warrior priest without taking levels of the War Priest PrC, just like you can be a samurai without ever taking levels of Samurai. Heck, you can even come up with your own Paladin code and keep to it without every taking a level of Paladin. You just have to roleplay it.

[bbugg]

Person_Man, I don't disagree at all. However, PrCing out of pure cleric is in part a way to gimp myself a little so as not to outshine the rest of the party (Swashbuckler heading for shadowdance, pure fighter, sorcerer) and part to have some interesting extra powers (these need not be terribly useful, just interesting.)

I'm now thinking I'll stay cleric for now, but if I can PrC into something cool, I don't mind losing caster levels. I'm not at all concerned with the loss of optimisation.

[Crimson Avenger]

If you're looking for a demon-slayer flavor, Knight of the Chalice is an excellent choice, especially since you aren't worried about not having full caster. And as a bonus you get some of the cooler Paladin spells on the spell list. Know: Religion 10 ranks and Know: Planes 5 ranks are easy to get as a cleric. The hardest part would be getting the +9 BAB and the LG alignment (well it is a paladin PrC afterall).

Complete Warrior

[Person_Man]

Person_Man, I don't disagree at all. However, PrCing out of pure cleric is in part a way to gimp myself a little so as not to outshine the rest of the party (Swashbuckler heading for shadowdance, pure fighter, sorcerer) and part to have some interesting extra powers (these need not be terribly useful, just interesting.)

I'm now thinking I'll stay cleric for now, but if I can PrC into something cool, I don't mind losing caster levels. I'm not at all concerned with the loss of optimisation.

Well, the Sorcerer could easily be more powerful then you if he's smart about his spell selection.

Once he has Hide in Plain Site, the Swash will rarely be killed, since he'll have Spring Attack and can Hide as part of any Move action as long as there's a shadow within 10 feet of him. He won't have much damage output, but you also don't have to worry about him getting hurt.

If the Fighter picks up some very basic combos he should be able to hold his own. Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + reach weapon comes to mind. Evasive Reflexes + Hold the Line + reach weapon. Etc.

But that's besides the point. If you're purposefully looking to gimp yourself, then I would suggest just staying pure Cleric and not buffing yourself before combat. Hit people with your normal attacks, heal as necessary. Memorize defensive spells, or memorize powerful spells but only cast them when your DM throws something really nasty at you. There's nothing remotely cheesy or broken about that.

[Miles Invictus]

I agree with Person_Man: if you're doing this just to avoid overshadowing everyone else, stay as a cleric and simply avoid the upstagingly powerful spells.

I actually think you can solve your dilemma by taking the best spells you have that can be cast on allies, with a few crazy-powerful personal spells for emergencies. If you're always buffing your teammates up and letting them be the heroes, they aren't going to be jealous if a few difficult battles end with you kicking ass for the Lord.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Generally, I let my Clerics get Sense Motive as a class skill, simply because it makes sense. After all, the stereotypical cleric always seems to know when you're lying to him, right?

However, it's not too bad, really. 5 ranks, cross class, can be obtained at level 7. Three more levels, then you'll be able to go into Warpriest by level 8.

Glory domain is actually pretty cool. You can get Bless Weapon, which is auto-confirm criticals on evil beings (demons and devils and the like, in particular, since it makes the weapon count as Good as well for purposes of overcomming DR), and later on, Holy Sword, which turns your axe into a Holy Avenger (only... yanno... still an axe). And lets not forget the Glory Domain granted ability to turn even better (and grab the Greater Turning Feat, blow an extra turn attempt to destroy instead of turn, for even more fun against undead).

One combo, albiet you need to be like level 20 to do it, which I like for buffing my buddies without being personally overpowering is DMM Chain Spell when combined with Divine Reach Heirophant ability. Divine Reach makes any touch spell have a range of 30'. DMM = Divine Metamagic, lets you blow turn attempts instead of increasing caster level. So you can use this combo with something like Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon to make the whole party's weapons AND armor all +5 enhancement bonus, meaning everyone just needs to get a +1 and load up extras on top of it.

[Roderick_BR]

I always thought that warpriest was more a PrC for paladins than clerics. Most of his special features are spell-like abilities that you can use once or twice a day, that a full cleric at similar level can cast dozens of time. And I think paladins are more leader-ishes than clerics anyway.

[Telok]

A short scan of the crystalkeep index of PrCs gives some options you may consider.

Pious Templar: Complete Divine, easy entry and gains combat ability for caster levels. Takes a half decent feat to get in, you'll be more paladin/fighter like than a normal cleric. Mettle is nice if your DM uses Spell Compendium spells or plans on slapping you with Harm and such spells in later levels.

Shinning Blade of Heironeous: Complete Divine, needs re-fluffing and cleric level 10. Probably a bit too long to wait from what it sounds like.

Hammer of Moradin: Player’s Guide to Faerûn, needs requirement changing to axes or a willingness to switch to hammering. I'd suggest req changing, perhaps a break on the 10 ranks of Craft(weapons) too because it gives up caster levels.

Hospitaler: Complete Divine, it'll take two feats but makes a nice mounted combat priest. Skill reqs would hurt here, but the class could be reasonably refluffed and the skills/feats changed a bit.

[Zincorium]

Well, the thing is, war priest is a paladin Prc.

Think about it, diplomacy and sense motive? BAB +5? Only partial casting? The 'you must have spells from these domains, but not necessarily the domain itself' business?

Paladins benefit a lot from the full BAB and special abilities, and they lose almost nothing.