Telling Blow, Death's Ruin, and critting undead

[John Campbell]

Okay, I've got a rules question that I could use some interpretations of.

Say I've got a Rogue, who has the Telling Blow feat (gives him Sneak Attack damage on crits), and the Death's Ruin alternate feature (allows him to Sneak Attack undead using half his SA dice). I'm fighting a ghoul, just straight up face-to-face, no flanking or flat-footed or anything that'd normally allow me to Sneak Attack it. I swing a flaming burst scimitar at it, and roll a natural 20. I then roll to confirm the crit, and do so.

Now, exactly what damage do I do to this ghoul?

I'm sure I don't get to double the scimitar's base damage. Death's Ruin only allows me to Sneak Attack undead; it doesn't allow me to crit them.

The +1d6 fire damage from the flaming isn't affected in any case.

I'm sure I do get the +1d10 fire damage from the burst... it's explicitly stated that it activates when a crit is rolled even if the target isn't actually crittable.

I clearly don't get my full Sneak Attack dice. Undead can't be Sneak Attacked; only Death's Ruin allows me to do so, and it only allows half my dice.

But do I get my half Sneak Attack dice? Are they like the burst damage, where they activate when a crit is rolled, even against targets that can't actually be critted? Or do they require me to actually do crit damage? This isn't normally an issue, because you can't usually Sneak Attack anything that you can't crit anyway, but Death's Ruin changes that by allowing one but not the other...

[Gaiwecoor]

Hmm... that's a tricky one. Since I don't have PHBII or whatever source gives Death's Ruin, I can't really look at the text of the feats/class features. Based on what you've said, here's how I'd do it:

Yes, you can add half your sneak attack dice to the crit on undead. Why? Telling blow is a feat that allows you to take advantage of a particularly good attack roll. This "particuarly good" quality is generally shown by doing critical damage and multiplying your regular weapon damage. That is not the only way do demonstrate it, however; the flaming burst is an example of that. The sneak attack damage is likewise an "additional damage" modifier, not part of the critical damage. Since the ghoul isn't immune, go ahead and add it.

[Human Paragon 3]

I would guess by RAW you don't get the 1/2 sneak attack dice, but if I were your DM, I would allow it, mostly because I have a soft spot for sneak-attacking rogues, but also because it seems in the spirit of the feats and would not unbalance gameplay.

[Irreverent Fool]

Okay, I've got a rules question that I could use some interpretations of.

Say I've got a Rogue, who has the Telling Blow feat (gives him Sneak Attack damage on crits), and the Death's Ruin alternate feature (allows him to Sneak Attack undead using half his SA dice). I'm fighting a ghoul, just straight up face-to-face, no flanking or flat-footed or anything that'd normally allow me to Sneak Attack it. I swing a flaming burst scimitar at it, and roll a natural 20. I then roll to confirm the crit, and do so.

Now, exactly what damage do I do to this ghoul?

I'm sure I don't get to double the scimitar's base damage. Death's Ruin only allows me to Sneak Attack undead; it doesn't allow me to crit them.

The +1d6 fire damage from the flaming isn't affected in any case.

I'm sure I do get the +1d10 fire damage from the burst... it's explicitly stated that it activates when a crit is rolled even if the target isn't actually crittable.

I clearly don't get my full Sneak Attack dice. Undead can't be Sneak Attacked; only Death's Ruin allows me to do so, and it only allows half my dice.

But do I get my half Sneak Attack dice? Are they like the burst damage, where they activate when a crit is rolled, even against targets that can't actually be critted? Or do they require me to actually do crit damage? This isn't normally an issue, because you can't usually Sneak Attack anything that you can't crit anyway, but Death's Ruin changes that by allowing one but not the other...

I believe that because undead are 'not subject to critical hits', you do not gain this bonus. And while I'm familiar with the 'burst weapons do their burst damage even if the thing isn't normally subject to a critical hit' rule, I can't actually find it anywhere. Is it still a 'successful critical hit' if the creature is not subject to critical hits?

Spoiler

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From the SRD
A flaming burst weapon functions as a flaming weapon that also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. In addition to the extra fire damage from the flaming ability (see above), a flaming burst weapon deals an extra 1d10 points of fire damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is ×3, add an extra 2d10 points of fire damage instead, and if the multiplier is ×4, add an extra 3d10 points of fire damage. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.

Even if the flaming ability is not active, the weapon still deals its extra fire damage on a successful critical hit.

Spoiler

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From http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070503a
Death's Ruin

You can channel the power of your faith when making sneak attacks against undead.

Level: 3rd.

Replaces: This benefit replaces the trap sense class feature, including trap sense bonuses gained at higher levels of the rogue class.

Benefit: You can make sneak attacks against undead creatures. However, you roll only one-half your normal sneak attack dice (rounded down) when determining bonus damage for such attacks. This is a supernatural ability.

Spoiler

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From the SRD
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.

I didn't list Telling Blow here because it's in the PHBII and I can't find an instance of it on wizards. It essentially says that you may add your sneak attack damage when you get a successful critical.

Regardless, it looks like you don't get to do your sneak attack damage from Telling Blow not because the undead is not subject to critical hits, but because the wording on Death's Ruin says that 'you may make sneak attacks against undead creatures'. You're not actually making a sneak attack, you're 'dealing your sneak attack damage' with Telling Blow.

(Edit: This in no way expresses a personal belief of how it should work, only my interpretation as far as my understanding of the RAW)

[Fax Celestis]

And the distinction with Death's Ruin vs. Penetrating Strike is important. Penetrating Strike allows you extra untyped (not sneak attack) damage against normally immune targets. Death's Ruin specifically allows sneak attack. Beyond that, though, I'm sadly going to have to back Irreverent Fool.

[Person_Man]

Say I've got a Rogue, who has the Telling Blow feat (gives him Sneak Attack damage on crits), and the Death's Ruin alternate feature (allows him to Sneak Attack undead using half his SA dice). I'm fighting a ghoul, just straight up face-to-face, no flanking or flat-footed or anything that'd normally allow me to Sneak Attack it. I swing a flaming burst scimitar at it, and roll a natural 20. I then roll to confirm the crit, and do so.

Now, exactly what damage do I do to this ghoul?

You don't roll to confirm the critical hit, because Undead are immune to critical hits.

Death's Ruin allows you to "make sneak attacks against undead creatures. However, you roll only one-half your normal sneak attack dice (rounded down) when determining bonus damage for such attacks." Nothing more or less. It has no effect on crit immunity.

You do not qualify for Sneak Attack in this instance, because Telling Blow requires you to "score a critical hit" in order for you to qualify for Sneak Attack (and even goes on to explain that the Sneak Attack damage is not multiplied). Rolling a natural 20 only allows you to threaten a critical hit. You do not get a critical hit unless you confirm it. And you cannot do so against an enemy that is immune to critical hits. The same is true for Burst damage.

So you deal base damage. That's it.

Another DM might rule differently. But I think the RAW is pretty clear here.

[John Campbell]

I believe that because undead are 'not subject to critical hits', you do not gain this bonus. And while I'm familiar with the 'burst weapons do their burst damage even if the thing isn't normally subject to a critical hit' rule, I can't actually find it anywhere. Is it still a 'successful critical hit' if the creature is not subject to critical hits?

Yeah, I had to hunt around a little to make sure I was remembering that one properly. It's not under the specific description of the burst properties; it's in the general description of how magic weapon bonus dice and crits interact.

See "Magic Weapons and Critical Hits", a few subsections down.

Magic Weapons and Critical Hits

Some weapon qualities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect functions against creatures not subject to critical hits, such as undead, elementals, and constructs. When fighting against such creatures, roll for critical hits as you would against humanoids or any other creature subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon’s regular damage.

This is a very poor choice for a feat.

I don't care.

Rolling a natural 20 only allows you to threaten a critical hit. You do not get a critical hit unless you confirm it. And you cannot do so against an enemy that is immune to critical hits. The same is true for Burst damage.

That last, at least, is not true. See the SRD quote above.

[Irreverent Fool]

Well, no wonder it is so prevalent! It's actually in the rules! Thanks for digging that up, John.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Another option is to get the "ghost strike" enhancement from the Magic Item Compendium; allows the critting of undead, which also allows the sneak attacking, skirmishing, and other precision based damaging of undead creatures (makes it fun for a scout/dervish in an undead campaign)

It's a synergy bonus that can be put on a Ghost touch weapon.

[its_all_ogre]

i would not allow the sneak attack dice.
simply because if you did then a keen scimitar would be good against undead, despite the fact that a keen weapon is no better than a non-keen weapon against crit immune enemies.

[John Campbell]

i would not allow the sneak attack dice.
simply because if you did then a keen scimitar would be good against undead, despite the fact that a keen weapon is no better than a non-keen weapon against crit immune enemies.

A keen flaming burst scimitar is better against crit-immune enemies than a non-keen flaming burst scimitar, according to the rule I quoted above. The inability to do critical damage to certain enemies is not a moral commandment saying that no effect related to critical ranges can ever give you any benefit against them.

And burst damage vs. crit-immunes is the nearest equivalent I can come up with that's clearly and explicitly covered by the rules. The rule that covers it only talks about weapon qualities and specific weapons, though. Is "weapon quality" here a technical term that means "special ability"? It doesn't seem to be used as such anywhere else. Does "does SA damage on a crit" become a quality of any weapon my Rogue picks up? Or does the quality have to be innate to the weapon? I dunno.