Abilities for 4e Humans?

[Dhavaer]

What do think (and/or hope) they'll be?

I'm actually kind of hoping they'll stay unmodified. The general fantasy trope seems to be that everyone else is noticeably superior to humans in some way (elves are fast, dwarves are tough, etc) but humans make up for this in a less noticeable fashion. I could see this being represented by extra action points, a 'second wind' mechanic, something similar to the 'slippery mind' ability, and other abilities with something of an 'up against the wall' flavour.

[VanBuren]

At least where NWN was concerned, the majority of the builds used human as a race. Generally, the extra feat/skillpoints was seen as a major advantage.

[Morty]

Well, in 3rd edition humans were defined by not having any racial stat bonuses and penalties. Since racial stat penalties are out of the window in 4ed, humans should either get some stat bonuses -probably for Int and Cha- or more powerful racial abilites. I wonder how they'll work it out.

[Nebo_]

They are described as being tough, so I think they will have a Constitution boost.

[Spiryt]

They are described as being tough, so I think they will have a Constitution boost.

But why?

Sure, it seems fair for human to be more hardy than elf, but it would be much more logical to give elf a penalty.

From the very broad point of view it's of course the same - there is anyway difference of 2 (or whatever) beneath them.
But it's generally accepted that human is something "average" in most fantasy systems.

[Charity]

They explicitly said they were not going to be assigning racial penalties, only bonuses, so I guess if they want elves to be fragile everyone else needs to be hardy.

[loopy]

They explicitly said they were not going to be assigning racial penalties, only bonuses, so I guess if they want elves to be fragile everyone else needs to be hardy.

But where does it end? I mean, showing that humans are hardier than elves would mean a +2 bonus. However, Gnomes are supposedly hardier than humans, meaning that they would need a +4. This means the average Gnomish peasant would have 14 con and would be a remarkably healthy person.

I'm not sold on this "no penalties" thing at all.

[Nebo_]

But where does it end? I mean, showing that humans are hardier than elves would mean a +2 bonus. However, Gnomes are supposedly hardier than humans, meaning that they would need a +4. This means the average Gnomish peasant would have 14 con and would be a remarkably healthy person.

I'm not sold on this "no penalties" thing at all.

But we don't have the fluff for 4e gnomes, yet. Who says that they're supposed to be tougher than normal?

[triforcel]

Aren't the 4e gnomes monsters anyways?

[Ryuuk]

Hmm, whats to stop humans from getting a +2 to a stat of choice? If you also through throw in 4ed versions of their 3.5 bonus feat and skill points, that should be enough. They're supposed to be adaptable, but a human would most likely chose a career in which he excels as.

[Spiryt]

But where does it end? I mean, showing that humans are hardier than elves would mean a +2 bonus. However, Gnomes are supposedly hardier than humans, meaning that they would need a +4. This means the average Gnomish peasant would have 14 con and would be a remarkably healthy person.

I'm not sold on this "no penalties" thing at all.

Exactly.

But we don't have the fluff for 4e gnomes, yet. Who says that they're supposed to be tougher than normal?

They say that gnomes anyway are out. But dwarves? Dwarves will certainly be hardier than humans, that's what dwarves do.

Of course it all can be build that way : Elves + 0 Con, everything else +2, Dwarfves + 4. But what's the point?
Elves - 2 leaves more free paper, let alone other things.

[metalbear]

I have to agree with Ryuuk, by giving the humans an option as to what their stat bonus is fits the concept of humans being adaptable and varied.

[Theli]

Races and Classes has this to say about the "mechanical benefits for humans":

Humans are our most resilient race. Though they don't have more hit points or higher defenses, they recover from damage and conditions more quickly than other races can. Humans are all about dramatic action and dramatic recovery. Many of these benefits come from racial feats.

It then goes on to say how its "never stupid to play a human of any class" due to this capability, even though they "have more potential for some classes".

[sikyon]

Races and Classes has this to say about the "mechanical benefits for humans":


It then goes on to say how its "never stupid to play a human of any class" due to this capability, even though they "have more potential for some classes".

Ahhh... maybe they recover HP quicker when resting, regain ability scores faster when damaged, get bonuses on fort saves vs disease and poison and weather and whatnot.

[Tren]

Races and Classes has this to say about the "mechanical benefits for humans":


It then goes on to say how its "never stupid to play a human of any class" due to this capability, even though they "have more potential for some classes".

It could be something like Will of the Forsaken from WoW, where they can shrug off one negative effect, maybe once per day or once per encounter.

*grabs a martini and waits for the 4E=WOWOMGWTF*

[ShadowSiege]

Ahhh... maybe they recover HP quicker when resting, regain ability scores faster when damaged, get bonuses on fort saves vs disease and poison and weather and whatnot.

Yeah, I read it as humans recover from wounds faster. Not necessarily more resistant to disease, poison or weather, but better able to wake up after the battle and march once more unto the breach.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Perhaps they just figured that the bonus Feats and Skill Points (or their analogue in the new system) were enough on their own. They are pretty good, after all.

[RTGoodman]

I could see this being represented by ... a 'second wind' mechanic

I can remember the source, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere it was mentioned that everyone was gonna get a "second wind" ability that works like the same mechanic from SW Saga Edition.

It seems to me from the Elf Stats preview that races are gonna get two +2 stats (Elves get +2 Dex, +2 Wis). I'm sort of thinking that humans will either get no bonuses but other stuff that makes up for that, or that they'll get "+2 to any two ability scores" or something like that.

[Lord Tataraus]

But where does it end? I mean, showing that humans are hardier than elves would mean a +2 bonus. However, Gnomes are supposedly hardier than humans, meaning that they would need a +4. This means the average Gnomish peasant would have 14 con and would be a remarkably healthy person.

I'm not sold on this "no penalties" thing at all.

I hear you, I don't like this no penalties thing either. It makes me wonder if humans will get +2 in everything? It seems they are basiaclly just adding 2 to all the stats to make sure there are no "penalties". I like penalties, it shows "I suck at this" where as a no bonus is "I'm average", an elf is not supposed to have "average" health.

[mikeejimbo]

A Wisdom bonus? That's outrageous and crazy.

[Dan_Hemmens]

I hear you, I don't like this no penalties thing either. It makes me wonder if humans will get +2 in everything? It seems they are basiaclly just adding 2 to all the stats to make sure there are no "penalties". I like penalties, it shows "I suck at this" where as a no bonus is "I'm average", an elf is not supposed to have "average" health.

There's two problems with penalties. Firstly, they make some classes prohibitively underpowered for some races, often for no reason. Secondly, they don't really get you anything. An elf with -2 Con can still have a Con score of 12, which is better than the average human.

[Theli]

an elf is not supposed to have "average" health.

Which begs the question...if their health is so poor, then why do they live so long?

Hmm...

[mikeejimbo]

There's two problems with penalties. Firstly, they make some classes prohibitively underpowered for some races, often for no reason. Secondly, they don't really get you anything. An elf with -2 Con can still have a Con score of 12, which is better than the average human.

But then, if you play a race that DOESN'T have a bonus to stats that are necessary for a class, you'll still be underpowered compared to the ones that do.

[Morty]

There's two problems with penalties. Firstly, they make some classes prohibitively underpowered for some races, often for no reason.

No reason? "Elves don't make good front-line heavy armored fighters because they're fragile" or "Half-orcs don't make good wizards because they're dim-witted" seem like preety good reasons.
Besides, some races will still be underpowered in certain roles, because they won't get bonuses to help them in those roles.

Secondly, they don't really get you anything. An elf with -2 Con can still have a Con score of 12, which is better than the average human.

And vastly better that your average elf. So the difference is still in here.

[freetobeuandme]

humans should stay as they are. They are a basis for all the other classes. Elves get a -2 consitution, you get that -2 from comparing them to humans. Same with their dex bonus...it wouldn't work if humans got an all new set of abilities

[Rutee]

But then, if you play a race that DOESN'T have a bonus to stats that are necessary for a class, you'll still be underpowered compared to the ones that do.

That depends on the nature of abilities. IMO, Abilities have much more potential then 2 points in a stat (I say potential because we haven't SEEN them yet.)

Personally, I'd rather Human Adaptability get a nod, with a human getting a +1 or +2 bonus to the stat of their choice

[Azerian Kelimon]

Agree on that. Humans MUST have jack of all trades bonuses. However, this bonuses must not follow the classic master of none principle jacks follow, but rather be powerful for any choice. Way I see it, if humans end getting faster recovery instead of skillpoints, pluses to stats of your choice, or feats, I'm homebrewing something more powerful for them. After all, that's how humans have always been: at one thing, they might be bested by a certain race, but overall, they are the mmost powerful.

[Ryuuk]

I hear you, I don't like this no penalties thing either. It makes me wonder if humans will get +2 in everything? It seems they are basiaclly just adding 2 to all the stats to make sure there are no "penalties". I like penalties, it shows "I suck at this" where as a no bonus is "I'm average", an elf is not supposed to have "average" health.

Elves have not had "average" health throughout 3-3.5 (I have no personal experience with anything before this, so I'd rather not make a claim I'm not sure of), but has anything pointed to them still being frail in 4ed? The preview article even notes them as being athletic. This is a new system after all, things are bound to change.

[Dan_Hemmens]

No reason? "Elves don't make good front-line heavy armored fighters because they're fragile" or "Half-orcs don't make good wizards because they're dim-witted" seem like preety good reasons.

Except it doesn't work like that. An individual half-orc is precisely as bright or as dim-witted as his Intelligence score indicates, but for a half-orcish wizard to get a high enough Int to be a good Wizard, he has to spend more points than a human. He's no more powerful, so it's just an arbitrary penalty.

Besides, some races will still be underpowered in certain roles, because they won't get bonuses to help them in those roles.

Not getting a bonus isn't the same as getting a penalty.

And vastly better that your average elf. So the difference is still in here.

But that's sort of the point, if you're positing these vast physiological differences which make elves so much frailer than humans, a Con 12 Elf makes no sense however you cut it. If those differences don't exist, the penalties make no sense.

A *far* better way to deal with racial penalties would be to set a cap on their stats.

[Lord Tataraus]

Elves have not had "average" health throughout 3-3.5 (I have no personal experience with anything before this, so I'd rather not make a claim I'm not sure of), but has anything pointed to them still being frail in 4ed? The preview article even notes them as being athletic. This is a new system after all, things are bound to change.

True, they could change that stereotype, but considering that's how elves have always been in most fantasy I would assume that stereotype to stay. After all, are dwarves going to no longer be grumpy? are halflings no longer physically weak?