Would you ban wands?

[kenjigoku]

Personally, when it comes to cure wands it seems that if they are crafted they are way too inexpensive. It hardly seems to do any good to have them, from the DM perspective. I was hoping that someone here could change my mind and show me why they are not as good as I make them out to be.

[JellyPooga]

Yes, Cure wands are very good for their price, but bear in mind that you need to be a UMD'er or be able to cast the spell anyway to use it, so if they were banned, it's not like cure's won't be being thrown around anyway...then also bear in mind that potions are also easily available and anyone with Craft Wondrous Item could devise a x/day Cure-ma-jig that would never run out of charges for a relatively (in the long run) cheap price.

[kenjigoku]

Thanks for the input. I was having a hard time with the perspective of the matter.

(Edit: I can't spell.)

[valadil]

Wands are nice but hardly game breaking. You just need to curb their availability. In the case of characters crafting their own wands, that means limit how much downtime the players have to spend on wands. When a BBEG is poised to take over the world, you spend a day or two resting up, not 2 years crafting every wand you could ever need. As long as downtime is a commodity, crafting can't get too out of control.

[mostlyharmful]

I find having easy acess to hp recovery very beneficial to DnD beyound the first couple of levels, it's the resource that the lower tier classes rely on (meleers) while casters are better off going for other win options such as status conditions and battlefield controls. Basically cheap easy healing means the slugger classes stay useful for longer on endurance runs and doesn't really affect the game otherwise. It also reduces the instaces of nacolepsy wonderfully, increases caster frugalness since the tanks still want to plod on for anouther few encounters and lets the healer classes do more fun things with their time then burning all their slots on cures.

[Hario]

I'm more worried about healing belts and wands of Vigor (lesser) healing belts for the potential cheese of how much healing it gets and can be used on others, not to mention no time needed with item to use, so you may have multiple healing belts and can pretty much auto switch when you run out (almost no need for heal bots, if that's a problem) but can hurt your undead npcs fairly easily. Wands of vigor less, not only are better than wands of CLW but completely replace them because the point of CLW wands are to spend off time using charges, which wands of vigor allow you to walk around and do things for 11 rounds and if you are still below 11 from max another charge 'for good measure'. On the other spectrum I'm not worried about wands of magic missile (CL1) which in inevitably used for useless damage migitation when a character has no other action. But on a two wand weilding cheesed out artificer and maxed CL, then yes they become disturbingly ping-dead weapons of death (especially if you allow felldrain and that rod that allows you to put 3 wands in it at a time) Overall I don't see wands that overpowered though in some situations they can be, depending on spells.

[Frosty]

Items that make your party less dependant on a healbot is GOOD. Playing a healbot is boring, and nobody should *have* to do it.

[ZeroNumerous]

Items that make your party less dependant on a healbot is GOOD. Playing a healbot is boring, and nobody should *have* to do it.

I like playing the healbot.. And then mixing in some Inflict Serious Wounds sometimes.

[Riffington]

Let's ignore the healing question for now (since healing someone with a wand is conceptually flawed, and really they should just make the Heal skill actually good.)

Out of the box, Casters are more powerful than noncasters - but their power is slightly limited by the number of spells they can cast each day. Wands are a way to overcome that limitation, at the cost of some gp. So yeah: if your characters have a lot of gold they can spend on magic items, wands are just increasing casters' powers still further. If characters receive random or planned magic items, and can't often buy custom-made items, then wands are kinda cool.

In short, I'd ban *certain* wands.

[Artanis]

I think it'd also depend on the party makeup. A party with a healer can just have the Cleric save a couple slots for Cure X Wounds spells, but a party without a healer is pretty much screwed if it gets beat up too badly and has no access to an alternative.

[sikyon]

I think it'd also depend on the party makeup. A party with a healer can just have the Cleric save a couple slots for Cure X Wounds spells, but a party without a healer is pretty much screwed if it gets beat up too badly and has no access to an alternative.

What party would ever make their (regular) Cleric save spots for cure? *coughspontaneouscastingcough*

[NullAshton]

What party would ever make their (regular) Cleric save spots for cure? *coughspontaneouscastingcough*

An evil party, perhaps. Evil clerics can still heal as far as I know, but can't spontaneously cast healing spells.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

In the case of characters crafting their own wands, that means limit how much downtime the players have to spend on wands.

I find it interesting that you find downtime to be the bigger issue than the financial cost...

What party would ever make their (regular) Cleric save spots for cure? *coughspontaneouscastingcough*

But (evil and certain neutral clerics aside) you need to have the spell you're converting uncast. So you still have to save those slots by not casting the spells that reside in them wantonly.

[AKA_Bait]

I like playing the healbot.. And then mixing in some Inflict Serious Wounds sometimes.

Me too. :-)

But (evil and certain neutral clerics aside) you need to have the spell you're converting uncast. So you still have to save those slots by not casting the spells that reside in them wantonly.

Indeed. This is one of the reasons I typically ban cure wands. The other is price. A potion of CLW is 50 gp for CLW once. A wand of CLW is 750 GP for 50 uses. That means it's 15 gp a shot, a signifigant savings for the first few levels where those potions are useful. If really bugged about it, I allow the wands, but raise the price.

[Kantolin]

Personally, having the entire party at good hit points after an encounter for money strikes me as a good thing.

As stated before, this supports fighters more than mages (As they're the ones who, in theory, are taking damage most often), and fighters can use support. It also encourages the idea of 'a dungeon of enemies, then a tougher boss at the end' without having to worry about a lack of hit points at the end.

And while I like playing the support-buff unit, being a healbot is not very fun for me - and it's certainly not something I'd force onto people.

Edit: Forgot a point.

The reason that wands are cheaper is becuase you have to buy them at 50 a pop, and then only people who can currently cast cure spells can use wands. In core, that's the Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Druid, and Bard - barring use magic device (Which only adds the rogue to that list). Potions are great for other people who can't use them, and you don't have to get them at 50 doses. They're also good for when/if the party's only healer(s) go down.

When you're low level, 750gp is a lot of money - the wealth per level of a level 2 character is only 900gp, and 750 doesn't leave much money leftover for anything else. Conversely, almost everyone can afford to spend 50gp by level 2.

And then higher level wands get insane quickly. Let alone wands of (say) Cure disease, which is incredibly unlikely to happen to you 50 times throughout your adventuring career and is thus potion-preferred or scroll-preferred.

[AKA_Bait]

Personally, having the entire party at good hit points after an encounter for money strikes me as a good thing.

Well, I disagree with you there I suppose. Hit points, and healing thereof, are part of a party's resources. Draining resources after each daily encounter is part of what the CR system is built on.

And while I like playing the support-buff unit, being a healbot is not very fun for me - and it's certainly not something I'd force onto people.

Who's having anything forced on them? They can buy a potion or suck it up and hire an Adept or Cleric to come along if no one wants to do the healing. It's a dangerous world out there.

[Severus]

Items that make your party less dependant on a healbot is GOOD. Playing a healbot is boring, and nobody should *have* to do it.

QFT.

D&D tends to assume any combat is going to result in lost hit points. You can pace the game differently, but you'd better have a clear picture in mind if you want to limit healing.

[Artanis]

What party would ever make their (regular) Cleric save spots for cure? *coughspontaneouscastingcough*

That was probably worded badly. I meant saving the last unused spell or two of a level to convert into Cure spells if they're running low and think they'll need healing soon. Like "Hmm, the only level 1 spell I have left is one Summon Monster 1. I'll see if I can forgo casting that so that I can use a CLW on the Fighter."



Edit: And now I see that Shhalahr Windrider already summed it up perfectly

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well, I disagree with you there I suppose. Hit points, and healing thereof, are part of a party's resources. Draining resources after each daily encounter is part of what the CR system is built on.

Wand charges are another resource factored into the CR system. So are potions, packets of magical dust, magic ammunition, >50% of nonmagic ammunition, and every other bit of expendable equipment available in the game.

[Devils_Advocate]

"It's vaguely concerning that an entire person can be replaced by several magical items. But, hey, what can you expect in these modern times?"
- Vander, tiefling monk and Sigil Prep student

[leperkhaun]

i dont have a problem with wands. You just ramp up the encounters. Make them hurt a bit more, thus requireing more charges from the wand = more money spent to keep going.


Now back when heal healed you to full HP and the party got a hold of a staff of healing....... that was rough.

[Talic]

The reason that wands are cheaper is becuase you have to buy them at 50 a pop, and then only people who can currently cast cure spells can use wands. In core, that's the Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Druid, and Bard - barring use magic device (Which only adds the rogue to that list).

Or Artificers. Or Warlocks. Or the Giamonk.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Or Artificers. Or Warlocks. Or the Giamonk.

Kantolin did say "in core."

'Cause there's also a lot more spellcasters than the ones he listed, too.

[Jayabalard]

Wands are nice but hardly game breaking.

That really depends on the game; there's a fair number of people who consider resource management, and specifically spell slot management to be one of the most important facets of D&D; anything that allows characters to sidestep their spells per day limitation (like cure wands) can certainly be game breaking to them.

[AKA_Bait]

The reason that wands are cheaper is becuase you have to buy them at 50 a pop, and then only people who can currently cast cure spells can use wands. In core, that's the Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Druid, and Bard - barring use magic device (Which only adds the rogue to that list). Potions are great for other people who can't use them, and you don't have to get them at 50 doses. They're also good for when/if the party's only healer(s) go down.

That's something I have a problem with. I can understand a portion of the decreased expense for the limitation of who can use it (which isn't much of a limitation considering also that a level 1 wand doesn't have much of a UMD check and that makes 7 classes in Core that can use it without any cross class ranks) but not one that drops each charge to less than a third of the cost of the potion.

When you're low level, 750gp is a lot of money - the wealth per level of a level 2 character is only 900gp, and 750 doesn't leave much money leftover for anything else. Conversely, almost everyone can afford to spend 50gp by level 2.

Most players can spend 150 - 200 gp at level 2 or 3. The party needs only buy one of these to make everything, especially at that level where death from HP loss is much more common than at higher levels.

And then higher level wands get insane quickly. Let alone wands of (say) Cure disease, which is incredibly unlikely to happen to you 50 times throughout your adventuring career and is thus potion-preferred or scroll-preferred.

Most other wands I have no problem with, in part because of that reason. The charges will probably not be used which def facto raises the per charge price. CLW wands aren't like that. All those charges will get used.

Wand charges are another resource factored into the CR system. So are potions, packets of magical dust, magic ammunition, >50% of nonmagic ammunition, and every other bit of expendable equipment available in the game.

Indeed. I happen to think that CLW wands are an example of when the designers screwed up pricing though. Hence, the charges are cheaper than they ought to be, giving more of a resource for the money than should really be there in terms of reccovered HP at low levels.

[Theli]

That's something I have a problem with. I can understand a portion of the decreased expense for the limitation of who can use it (which isn't much of a limitation considering also that a level 1 wand doesn't have much of a UMD check and that makes 7 classes in Core that can use it without any cross class ranks) but not one that drops each charge to less than a third of the cost of the potion.

Minor note: A level 1 wand has the same UMD check as a caster level 20 one: DC 20

Oh, and you can't use UMD untrained.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

...doesn't have much of a UMD check...

Level 2 Rogue. Max ranks. Charisma 14. That's a +7 to the check.

Needs a 13 or higher. So the rogue fails 60% of the time.

Pretty risky if ya need some healing right now, I think...

[AKA_Bait]

Pretty risky if ya need some healing right now, I think...

Thing is, the CLW wand really isn't the thing that gets used if you need some healing right now before the owlbear eats your head. It's the item that gets used over and over bettween encounters to keep everyone at top HP before the next one.

Oh, and you can't use UMD untrained.

I don't think I said you could, but anyone can take cross-class ranks in it.

[Theli]

I don't think I said you could, but anyone can take cross-class ranks in it.

But, but, you said...

which isn't much of a limitation considering also that a level 1 wand doesn't have much of a UMD check and that makes 7 classes in Core that can use it without any cross class ranks

7 classes in core that can use it without any cross class ranks?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Thing is, the CLW wand really isn't the thing that gets used if you need some healing right now before the owlbear eats your head. It's the item that gets used over and over bettween encounters to keep everyone at top HP before the next one.

At that point the DC doesn't really matter, then. Just a distraction. You only face consequences for failure when using the "Activate Blindly" task, so you can pretty well take 20 (even if you can't honestly take 10 ). So why bother bringing it up?

In my experience, though, continually keeping hp topped off with a wand drains charges awfully quickly. Gets pretty expensive, even with all party members contributing to the cost.

In any case, now and then, I'm sure there's gonna be the occasional situation where you don't have the luxury of saving the wand for when the healing's over. Particularly on those encounters that are above party level. (Yeah, those are part of the balance trick, too.)

7 classes in core that can use it without any cross class ranks?

This number includes classes that don't need any ranks. Y'know those ones with the spell on their class lists already.

Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Bard, Rogue... Hm, I'm only counting six here.