Marshal + Scout = Skirmishing Full Attack?

[Ascension]

Okay, I don't have the minis handbook and just from hearing it mentioned in passing I didn't think the marshal sounded all that impressive, so I never investigated the class. Recently, though, someone mentioned in another thread that the part about the marshal has been excerpted online, so I read through it. What really caught my attention was the ability to grant bonus move actions. Bonus move actions! If I'm reading the interaction of the class abilities right, I think that if the marshal won initiative this would let the scout gain his/her skirmish damage bonus on every attack in a full attack, since he/she would have already moved 10+ feet in the turn. Is that right?

[Darrin]

Bonus move actions! If I'm reading the interaction of the class abilities right, I think that if the marshal won initiative this would let the scout gain his/her skirmish damage bonus on every attack in a full attack, since he/she would have already moved 10+ feet in the turn. Is that right?

Yes, that's correct. A 4th level marshal can grant a move action to his allies 1/day.

And a 1st level Scout that takes the Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) can do the same thing without the Marshall ten rounds in a row.

[Ascension]

Complete Champion?

It's stuff like this that compels people to buy books... I've been playing a scout, and I've been doing quite well so far, but now that the other party members are starting to get their bonus attacks, I'm beginning to look a lot less useful.

[Akennedy]

Well, you could do the same with a psychic warrior, I mean, 4 levels in Psychic Warrior and *poof* hustle, free move actions at the cost of 3 pp. I'm sure there's some combination of classes to exploit that.

[tyckspoon]

Complete Champion?

It's stuff like this that compels people to buy books... I've been playing a scout, and I've been doing quite well so far, but now that the other party members are starting to get their bonus attacks, I'm beginning to look a lot less useful.

Greater Manyshot is the 'standard' way for a Scout to get multiple Skirmishing attacks. If you want to do it in melee, you'll need to either get some kind of Pounce or some way to get an extra move action/move as a swift action. The Travel devotion works for that, but it's still only good 1/day.

[Worira]

The Dervish prestige class from Complete Warrior works, too.

[ChaosDefender24]

If we're talking Complete Champion there's always that one-level dip into Barbarian for the lion totem pounce. Swapping out Rage for the Whirlwind Frenzy variant (SRD, UA) makes it even more fun.

[Talic]

Dervish is so much better though... Grants all sorts of crazy attack bonuses.

If you can get an item that does Wraithstrike, that thousand cuts ability gets ugly when swinging a wounding weapon or two.

(3 attacks base, +3 off hand) x2 = 12 attacks + skirmish damage, + up to -24 con.

[Curmudgeon]

Other ways to get full attacks with skirmish damage involve getting 10' adjustments instead of just the usual 5'. A Monk can train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master and forever after have the option to make either a 5' or a 10' step. Or anybody who can make a DC 40 Tumble check can make a tumbling 10' adjustment.

[Talic]

7th level Elocater can also get an extra 5 foot step in a round.

[shaggz076]

Well I don't have the book infront of me so I am not sure the level or requisites but there is a Martial that grants you +5 feet to every 5 foot step action giving you a 10foot move each round without sacrificing your full attack. Also if you take a level of Barbarian you can take the Snow Tiger Clan (Not sure of exact name, no books at work today) from Unapproachable east (allows you to effectively pounce)

[The Glyphstone]

Don't forget the Ebberon Super Not Magic Rollerskates^TM!

[RTGoodman]

From that excerpt:

Once per day, as a standard action, he may grant an extra move action to any or all of his allies within 30 feet (but not to himself)

So, once again, the Marshal is pretty decent for helping out others, but on his own kinda sucks.

And since no one has mentioned it yet, the Belt of Battle from Magic Item Compendium lets you take something like an extra move, standard, or full-round action (I think), but it only has a certain number of charges per day.

[Uthug]

It has 3 charges, it takes 1 to take a move action, 2 to take a standard action and 3 to take a full-round action.

[Indon]

And a 1st level Scout that takes the Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) can do the same thing without the Marshall ten rounds in a row.

Don't you need to be able to cast a spell from a domain before you can take a domain feat?

[BadJuJu]

7th level Elocater can also get an extra 5 foot step in a round.

There is a White Raven stance that gives an extra 5 foot step. I dont recall the name of it.

[Human Paragon 3]

I second dervish. the "crazy attack bonuses" are great. The only drawback is that you are useless against flying opponents.

[Darrin]

Don't you need to be able to cast a spell from a domain before you can take a domain feat?

Nope. The Devotion feats don't require any divine spellcasting. There's some guidelines about how you shouldn't take opposing devotions, or devotions that are outside of the domains worshipped by your deity, but it also says you don't have to worship any deity if the devotion fits your character concept. All in all, the requirements are pretty vague, other than you can't take more than two of them.

[Darrin]

There is a White Raven stance that gives an extra 5 foot step. I dont recall the name of it.

Press the Advantage. However, it's a level 5 stance, so unless you're a Warblade 9 or Crusader 9, you can't pick it up until 18th level.

[Draz74]

Press the Advantage. However, it's a level 5 stance, so unless you're a Warblade 9 or Crusader 9, you can't pick it up until 18th level.

Not strictly true ... you could be, for example, Scout 10 / Warblade 4 and get it. (4th level is when Warblades get their second Stance, right?) And 14th level is lower than 18th.

This build would also get you a 4th iterative attack if your game gets all the way to Level 20, and of course it would also get you a few other useful maneuvers along the way.

[Person_Man]

Ways to qualify for Skirmish and get a full attack that I know of, with linky goodness.

Ways to get Pounce
Multi-Pounce
Magic Rollerskates
Greater Manyshot
Evasive Reflexes + AoO (reach weapon, Karmic Strike, Hold the Line, etc)
Hustle
Psicrown of the Evader
Leadership: Get Marshal and/or White Raven Tactics using followers.
Press the Advantage
Elocator


Unconventional methods:

DC 40 Tumble Check: Allows you to take a 10 ft. step. From Oriental Adventures. Actually not that hard to do with Skill Focus (Tumble), 1 level of Exemplar, 1 level of Marshal, and a few magic items.

Sparring Dummy of the Master: Arms and Equipment Guide. Permanent 10 ft steps. But it requires you take Monk levels, and its 3.0 material.

Grapple with 10 feet of reach: Grappling Moves you into enemy's square. And you can make one Grapple check for each attack you have (even once you're Grappled, as clarified by the Rules Compendium). So you can just spend your first attack/Grapple check to Move you and your enemy, then continue to attack/Grapple.

Buy an trained dog, or get a familiar or animal companion. Have them Grapple you each turn. You can choose to automatically fail an opposed check. If it has three attacks, it can Grapple you, Move both of you, and then release the Grapple.

Buy an trained dog, or get a familiar or animal companion. Have it Bull Rush you each turn. Again, you can choose to automatically fail an opposed check.

Falling is a free action. A Scout with any method of flight and a Ring of Feather Falling could qualify for Skirmish every other round without having to take any action.

Dervish: I hate this class for a variety of reasons. But it works.

[Ascension]

I'm a near-total n00b when it comes to this whole 'optimization' stuff. I guess my main problem is that I decided to focus on archery, when in D&D ranged combat is... decidedly not optimal. Really, archery should be a lot more effective than it is, but I'm afraid this could turn into a rant at the drop of a hat, so I'm going to fight the urge to say anything more about that.

Anyway, I'm a rogue 3/scout 3 at the moment. Sure, I've got the skillmonkey role down pat, but it would be rather nice not to be essentially worthless when combat starts. Sneak attack is still such a situational ability it comes into play with disappointingly low frequency. Skirmish I've been a lot more pleased with, but it's limiting me to one attack per round. Dervish won't work because of my feat choices so far. My DM has suggested multiple times that I should multiclass into a Tome of Battle class, but looking through the maneuver lists it seems like I'd have a lot of wasted slots, since it's a very melee focused book. Sure, there's stuff in there that would help, but there's a lot of other stuff that wouldn't. Also, skillmonkey's really all I've got that no one else has, and if I start multiclassing into martial classes I risk losing that. The Complete Champion stuff sounds like a possible fix, but I've already sunk a lot of cash into books recently, and I don't really feel like buying another one.

That being said, I think I found a somewhat workable solution last night. I'll still be nigh worthless against stuff that's immune to precision damage, but by taking the Swift Ambusher and Improved Skirmish feats from Complete Scoundrel I can give myself a +4d6 +4 AC skirmish by ECL 7. I will, of course, still be playing second fiddle to the cleric, druid, and wizard (yep, we've got one of each), but maybe, just maybe I can do more damage than the fighter and/or paladin every now and then. When we aren't fighting undead. Or constructs. Or oozes. Or... well, you get the picture. *sigh*

The one thing that keeps me sane is the knowledge that if we ever get attacked by something capable of killing all of them, my bonuses to movement might let me outrun it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The one thing that keeps me sane is the knowledge that if we ever get attacked by something capable of killing all of them, my bonuses to movement might let me outrun it.

And you're not even optimized, you should multi-class into monk for that. Also, you can see about re-training, if you're incredibly under-powered, you're DM might let you re-work a couple of feats.

[Draz74]

Rogue/Scout isn't a great setup, but if you have it, Swift Ambusher is definitely a must. Good catch!

Tome of Battle won't help you much with a ranged build, but it could still probably be a useful dip if you're careful about what you pick. And Swordsage gets enough skill points that you won't really lose your "monkey" status. On the other hand, Swordsage also doesn't get you the White Raven stance people have been recommending.

But if you're a ranged build, Greater Manyshot is probably your biggest boon. That's definitely the easiest way to get multiple Skirmish attacks. Most of the suggestions you've gotten were assuming that you were a melee Scout.

One last thing. Sneak Attack shouldn't really be very situational at all. Well, I guess it's kind of situational with ranged attacks, since you can't flank with them. But this comment still makes me worry that you don't really know how to use Sneak Attack. It's normally a pretty reliable melee ability.

There are tricks you can use to make Sneak Attack reliable even for ranged. Most obvious is getting someone to cast Greater Invisibility on you after the battle starts. A similar method, expensive but not reliant on your party members, is a Ring of Blinking.

[Telok]

Tome of Battle may be useful to you. The White Raven stuff won't.

You're a ranged combatant with precision damage activated by movement and stealth.

There's a pdf on the WotC website with all the maneuvers on it (I don't have the link handy because I downloaded it). Pay special attention to some of the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand ones. You're looking for the maneuvers like:

Sudden Leap (Jump as a swift action)
Death from Above (standard action attack, +4d6 damage, target is flat footed)
Cloak of Deception (greater invis until the end of your turn)
Child of Shadow (concealment if you move a minimum distance)

Swordsage gets both of those schools and good skill points.

My DM has suggested multiple times that I should multiclass into a Tome of Battle class,

Your DM likes you.

[Draz74]

Oh yeah ... Sudden Leap. That's huge for the Skirmish Full Attack problem. And it's Level 1, so it's easy to get with a dip!

Now if only the Swordsage's maneuver Recovery method wasn't awful, I'd be wholeheartedly telling you to dip into Swordsage (long enough to get Child of Shadow). As is, you'll mostly only be able to use the Sudden Leap trick 1/encounter. Because the Swordsage takes a full round of doing nothing to recover a maneuver. Yuck.

[Person_Man]

I'm a near-total n00b when it comes to this whole 'optimization' stuff. I guess my main problem is that I decided to focus on archery, when in D&D ranged combat is... decidedly not optimal.

?

Archery is actually pretty easy to optimize.

1) Find a way to qualify for Skirmish and/or Sneak Attack every round. There are a bunch of ways to qualify for Skirmish every round on this thread.

Here are ways to qualify for Sneak Attack:

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1) Win Initiative: A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act.

2) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures.

3) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap.

4) Still More Flanking: Invest in a lot of Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

5) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat. If he doesn't, buy a wand and use UMD.

6) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat to ignore your 20% miss chance.

7) Skill Tricks: Check out the Complete Scoundrel.

8) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

9) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

10) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

11) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

12) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members.

13) Hide in Plain Site: A dip into Warlock and let's you Hide in Plain Site every round as a Swift action via At Home in the Deep. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

14) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat, it works for a full attack if you hit on your first attack.

Ways to improve Sneak Attack:

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TWF (which can be used with thrown weapons) or archer tree: More attacks.

Savvy Rogue: Improves all your Special Rogue abilities. Comp Scoundrel

Maiming Strike: Replaces Sneak Attack with Cha damage on a 2d6 for 1 basis. Some enemies have piss poor Cha. If they have high Cha, they often depend on it to cast. Exemplars of Evil.

Staggering Strike: When you Sneak Attack an enemy, they must Save or be Staggered for one round, limiting them to a single Move or Standard action. Comp Adventurer.

Craven: +1 Sneak Attack damage per character level. Champions of Ruin.

Double Hit: Allows you to make two attacks when you make an attack of opportunity. Works well with Opportunist, Trip builds, etc. Miniatures Handbook.

Frightful Presence: Good for social Rogues with high Cha. Enemies must Save each round or be shaken. Fear effects stack, so if your enemy fails two Saves, he tries to run away. Draconomicon (also available through a graft in Races of the Dragon).

Undo Resistance: Sneak Attacks lower Spell Resistance. Great for high level characters. Fiendish Codex II.

Darkstalker: Lets you Hide, even if your enemy has scent, tremorsense, see invisibility, etc. Great for builds that can pick up Hide in Plain Sight. Lords of Madness.

Lion Tribe Warrior: Gives you limited Pounce without having to multi-class or PrC. Shining South.

Neraph Charge: The first time you charge an enemy, he is denied his Dex bonus. An easy way to qualify for Sneak Attack without Flanking. Neraph get a superior version of this ability for free. Planar Handbook.

Dragonfire Strike: Allows you to convert Sneak Attack and Skirmish into energy damage. Depending upon how your DM reads the feat (whether its converted before or after you roll your damage dice) this solves problems with undead, plants, etc. Dragon Magic.

2) Be a Cleric or Archivist. Take Zen Archery. Buff yourself. Summon some monsters.

3) Stack effects. Buy a +1 Flaming Arrow. Fire +1 Frost Arrows. Have a 12th level friend cast Greater Magic Weapon on your bow. You now fire +3 Flaming Frost Arrows. At 20th level, you should be firing +5 Flaming Frost Wounding Exploding Knockback etc. Your only limit is money.

4) Take the Ancestral Weapon feat from Book of Exhalted Deeds. It lets you sacrifice items or gp to improve your weapon. This saves you some gp, since you don't have to sell items that you find at the standard 50% mark down.

5) If you don't want to be a Skill Monkey, be a Kensai. They get a very powerful, very cheap magic item as their main class feature. This frees up a huge pile of gp for magic arrows. Stack effects.

[Ascension]

Well, thanks for all the advice. Like I said... or at least meant to say... I'm not even trying to be uber. Not only is there no hope of that with this build, I'd really rather play an interesting character than an overpowered one. I'd just like to be useful. It would help if the wizard was willing to buff us. As it is, he's pure blaster.

Actually, no one in our party is really optimized, except maybe the druid (insert obligatory CoDzilla remark here). Our wizard's pure blaster, our fighter wields a crossbow as his primary weapon, our paladin doesn't really seem to understand her class features, our cleric primarily either uses spiritual weapon (which always seems to miss) or summons celestial animals (MUCH more effective), and you know my problems. The druid, on the other hand, is a very angry puma most of the time.

Ehh, who cares. I'm having fun regardless, even if it is contemplating how effectively I can abandon my allies. And in the event of Velkin's demise I've got at least four much better constructed characters waiting in the wings. Someday they shall fear and respect my characters. Someday.

[Draz74]

Hey, if you take Swift Ambusher and Greater Manyshot, you'll probably do fine in a group like that. Especially if you sneak up on the Druid and assassinate him in his sleep. (Kidding! ) Your build isn't really all that bad.

Good luck figuring out exactly what fanangling (ToB stuff) you want to do beyond that!

[Telok]

Non, non.

Tome of Battle classes get enough shiny toys that they don't get forced into the "action, reset, action, reset..." trap. Starting as Swordsage at 7th character level (initator level 4) he should be able to get all four maneuvers that I mentioned in ?three? levels. So at character level 10 he'd have those four options plus at least three more maneuvers and another stance or two. Granted he'd still be limited by the number of maneuvers he can ready at one time, but he should be capable of at least three to five rounds of effective combat before running short on maneuvers. Even then he doesn't have to refresh because he still has scout and rogue options available.

If he went that route then it would be best to stay in Swordsage long enough to trade out the crappy Tiger Claw strike prerequsite (needed to take Sudden Leap or DFA) for something useful. It'd also give him room to pick up Assassin's Stance (+2d6 sneak attack). And good stances are always useful because they never run out, just switch as a swift action.

I don't have ToB with me right now, so I can't look at everything, but I think at 8th or 9th level he should be able to pull an Assassin Stance DFA for about +12d6 total damage. If he started the round in Assassin Stance then he'd still have a swift action to Sudden Leap away, preferably behind cover of an ally. That's a melee option, but it keeps him mobile and he can still shoot the next round just fine.

Hmm, there's that feat that adds Dex to damage while you're in a Shadow Hand stance. So many nice toys, so few character levels, such hard choices.