Epic Level Unhappiness (rant)

[tyckspoon]

Quick Question;

Since epic spellcasting requires 24 ranks in spellcraft (etc...), aren't you unable to pick up the feat until level 24? Or do skill ranks go up before choosing feats in the order of leveling up?

Skill rank limit is level+3; you can hit it as soon as you get level 21.

[Crow]

Skill rank limit is level+3; you can hit it as soon as you get level 21.

I understand that part. What I am talking about is at level 20, your max ranks are 23.

So when you level up, you don't meet the pre-reqs until you put in more ranks. I wanted to know if putting in the ranks on that level-up (20 to 21) counts as meeting the pre-req for getting the feat.

EDIT! Sorry about that, I missed the answer given on the last page.

[Rachel Lorelei]

You mean letting the Wyrm come withing 100 ft of the Wizard?

Class levels (including skill ranks) always come first.

A great wyrm that can't protect itself against negative energy effects shouldn't have made it to Great-Wyrm-hood.

[Voyager_I]

Let's assume it was just an example to show how much death he was dealing...

[RedShift zX]

Let's assume it was just an example to show how much death he was dealing...

Thank you...


Now if "Crater Maker" is a low end epic spell..whats high end?

Toril Extinction Meteor?

and in the FR setting...isnt 10th level spells the highest thats allowed? Some limit from mystra from what Karsus did right?

[Fuzzy_Juan]

not sure about FR....when it comes to Epic spells, the only limiting factor is the DM...if the DM allows it, then there ya go...no matter if the player follows the rules to the letter, the DM is free to say...ummm...no, that is just cheese.

By the same token, the DM should be looking at the encounters planned and see if the players have the skills necessary to overcome the encounters. I recall a few adventure modules where the 'ideal' and what happened were not exactly on the same level...

Not taking advantage of some of the goodies that epic spells offer is like complaining that you can't beat the DR of a creature because you didn't want to invest in a +6 or greater magic weapon cause it was 'cheesy' and expensive...

When in Rome...Epic is playing with the big boys now...keep up, or get lost as they say...go big, or go home. Those who will not reach for 'epic' numbers will not meet epic challenges...as such, they will never advance and become truely epic. The choice is yours. There is no shame in not going for the more optimal builds/spells/buffs...but there is no shame in using what is available either.

[Telok]

Remember, you have friends. Especially two friendly casters, one of whom ought to also be capable of casting epic spells. Therefore...

Epic Spell: Minion(s)

Seed: Animate
Target: One Gargantuan Statue

Seed DC +25, cast time increase (+10 minutes) -20, one participant contributing an epic spell slot -19, one participant contributing a 6th level spell slot -11, 35d6 backlash for the caster -35, add 34 extra HD +68, permanent duration x5 final DC.

Total DC = 40

I modeled this off Create Living Vault. It'll give you a 50 HD gargantuan animated object, and you can cast it twice a day. It won't solve all your problems, you'll want to heal between castings too, but it's an indication of the sort of stuff you can do with this. The backlash is tailored to your hit points and assumes above average die rolls.

If you want nasty spells you can work up a Transport/Delude seed one that creates a one-way portal to another plane similar to the Gate spell, but for some reason happens to be totally undetectable until you pass through, except that it closes once something passes through it. If it can't do planar travel, it's not a threat anymore.

[Indon]

Yeah, epic magic is kind of screwy. Below are a couple epic spells I hacked up that I think you'll feel are more appropriate epic spells. One is a spell that gives you a Luck bonus to your intelligence for 40 hours, the other is a spell that protects you from melee attacks that takes only one standard action to cast. You can cast both by taking 10 on Spellcraft. The kicker for both, of course, is the massive GP and XP costs for developing both spells.

And one thing you are forgetting is the xp cost and the gp cost of such spells, which have to be created in advance. We aren't millionaires here, we're still spending like adventurers. And I haven't got all the xp to spare. And even if I somehow did, I would be so far behind everyone level-wise it might not even matter.

Lucky guess
Effect: +8 Luck bonus to Intelligence for 40 hours.
Seed: Fortify
Base DC: 23
+7 extra effect: +42
10 minute casting time: -20
extra duration: +2
personal range: -2
Total DC: 45
Research: 405,000 GP, 9 days research time, 16,200 XP.


Attack Ward
Effect: Reflects five melee attacks upon the attacker using the attacker's attack roll.
Seed: Reflect (Melee)
Base DC:27
1 action casting time: +20
Total DC: 47
Research: 423,000 GP, 9 days research time, 16,920 XP.

I recommend asking your DM to reduce GP/XP costs for epic spell development.

[Douglas]

Quick Question;

Since epic spellcasting requires 24 ranks in spellcraft (etc...), aren't you unable to pick up the feat until level 24? Or do skill ranks go up before choosing feats in the order of leveling up?

PHB page 58, how to level up step by step. Skill points are step 6. Feats are step 7.

Edit: Yes, I know this was already answered, I'm just providing the source of the rule.

[mostlyharmful]

Thank you...


Now if "Crater Maker" is a low end epic spell..whats high end?

Toril Extinction Meteor?

and in the FR setting...isnt 10th level spells the highest thats allowed? Some limit from mystra from what Karsus did right?

high end epic is something along the lines of creating your own multiverse in which you are an overgod. Seriously. Stupid, stupid limitless system.

And in FR higher than 9th level spells are banned, Mystra having decided that alowing mortals to freakin EAT her was a bad thing after only having it happen the once, making her somewhat ahead of the curve for a deity.

Epic Casting however wasn't banned, hence High Magic still being available to the elves (They're just not dumb enough to use it often as it seems to have a tendancy to backfire if it's amped up too high or used too much, see the realms history book for some good ideas of overstretch, the Sundering being the biggest). Technically epic casting is treated as being of 10th level for some interactions with the gaming engine but they aren't actually 10th level slots being used (for them you need Improved Spell Capacity). I'm sure the FR designers would blather about epic casting directly accessing "magic" and not using the weave at all or something like that, effectively it's cheating but past 20th you need to just to keep up as has been pointed out.

[LotharBot]

PHB page 58, how to level up step by step. Skill points are step 6. Feats are step 7.

PHB page 58 doesn't actually say you have to take the steps in order, only that those are the changes you need to make when leveling up. The only necessary order is that you choose your class before picking up abilities that depend on class (such as skills, spells, and class features.) I let my players use anything picked up at level X as a prerequisite for anything else picked up at level X, as long as they don't do anything circular. (Using skill points to qualify for a PrC would be circular, since you get skill ranks from your class.)

But yes, if you read PHB page 58 as giving a strict order, you can still get the "24 ranks" epic feats at level 21, the "27 ranks" feats at 24, and the "30 ranks" feats at 27. That seems intentional -- it's why there are so many 24/27/30 rank feats (and a bunch of 25 rank feats, which make you delay at least one level before you can get them.)

[GoC]

Telok: Mitigating factors are applied after everything else so in order to get a DC 40 spellcraft check you're going to have to forget all the extra HD...

One thing that should definitely be done however is a DC100 spell that increases Con but has maximum backlash damage, the Con bonus negate the damage with hitpoints to spare!

[KoDT69]

Last epic spell I made was something like a DC 68 in the end and was a 100 ft radius mass heal mass resurrect mass buff of like +5 to attack, damage, and saves for more than 24 hours. It was pretty useful for that 2 hours the character lived. He sacrificed himself with excessive backlashing sun spells onto an army of vampire something-or-others. Yeah, that's why I stick to DMing. The one other guy in my group who can kinda DM has really off-the-cuff encounters. Arbitrarily deciding the BBEG has like 37,000hp and a 500hd cohort with every feat in existence is lame. I had to kill myself to get out of that campaign!

I do like the idea of permanent duration Eidolon type spells though! Give up a level until it bites the dust, and meanwhile you're your own best friend and getting higher XP because you dropped a level.

[Telok]

Telok: Mitigating factors are applied after everything else so in order to get a DC 40 spellcraft check you're going to have to forget all the extra HD...

Ahh, I missed that sentence then. Actually makes it easier in some ways.

Drop the permanent and reduce the epic slot mitigation to 9th level. You can then increase the duration to 300 rounds (50 minutes) or add another 15 hit die to the critter. You'd just need to have a statue that big be portable and available.

Alternately create massive amounts of solid adamantine to entomb stuff or... Man that's bad....

I just looked at the Sphere of Annihilation. Make an epic spell that will boost your Int mod only for purposes of controlling the sphere. With some decent mitigation (and a Sphere of course) you ought to be able to hit +100 bonus or so. That ought to get you to about a 500' range on moving the Sphere, which is a free action. Just move it into your target's space.

Anyway, you have lots of options. Epic spellcasting is about breaking the rules, thinking outside the box, breaking the box into itty bitty bits, shoving the bits into your foe's assorted body cavities, then turning the bits into nail studded wood golems. Have fun with it.

[Heliomance]

Trouble is, the Sphere is an artifact. Meaning you can't create one. Meaning you can only get one if the DM gives one to you.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

"Begone Foul Necromancer"

*smite!*

[Frosty]

Holy thread True Ressurection Batman!

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't resurrect old threads*. Please do start and new thread and link to the old one (if necessary).

*By "old threads" I mean threads older than six weeks and farther back than page three.