PAO into something without a heart?

[kemmotar]

If i remember correctly, polymorph any object does not limit you in the respect of something without limbs as long as it exists...humans missing a limb or a heart aren't that difficult to find...just cut them off and there you have it...

Now can you PAO a human(for example) into a human with no hands and feet?or without a heart? With PAO rules the change should be permanent...

Or does polymorph not work that way?

[seedjar]

I'd say, if you're playing with a DM with any sense, PAO works the way the DM says it works. If you were trying to kill someone with this use of the spell, I would consider it (because there are several less creative ways of killing someone with a polymorph effect within the RAW,) but I'd give the target whatever the bonus is for being polymorphed into a form that would be lethal, the same as using Baleful Polymorph to change someone into a fish when there's no water around for them to breath. I've seen a lot of debate on PAO, but not a lot of actual rules governing it's more creative uses. I think it only makes sense to defer to the DM.
~Joe

[Zincorium]

As a DM? If your body requires something to work (a heart) and you don't have one, the usual thing happens.

You die.

You would have to polymorph into something that can live without whatever organ you're attempting to get rid of.

[kemmotar]

I'd say, if you're playing with a DM with any sense, PAO works the way the DM says it works. If you were trying to kill someone with this use of the spell, I would consider it (because there are several less creative ways of killing someone with a polymorph effect within the RAW,) but I'd give the target whatever the bonus is for being polymorphed into a form that would be lethal, the same as using Baleful Polymorph to change someone into a fish when there's no water around for them to breath. I've seen a lot of debate on PAO, but not a lot of actual rules governing it's more creative uses. I think it only makes sense to defer to the DM.
~Joe

A good enough bluff check with circumstance bonus since you will be using PAO...only not for good purposes might convince them to accept the spell and not resist it...which would negate the problem...

Also, about zincorium's argument of being able to live in the new form, it doesn't say anything about that in the spell
So that would probably depend on the DM...

[PirateMonk]

A good enough bluff check with circumstance bonus since you will be using PAO...only not for good purposes might convince them to accept the spell and not resist it...which would negate the problem...

Also, about zincorium's argument of being able to live in the new form, it doesn't say anything about that in the spell
So that would probably depend on the DM...

Yes, in the same sense that it doesn't say you can't move around when dead.

[Dan_Hemmens]

You could cut out the middle man and just polymorph them into a corpse. I'm fairly sure it's the same duration calculation.

You could make the argument, however, that you can only PaO somebody into a *standard* version of whatever you're PaOing them into.

That said, this isn't *really* that much of an abuse anyway, since you basically *can* polymorph somebody into a rat permanently if I recall the description correctly.

In fact, you're way better off turning somebody into a fly and then swatting them then you are polymorphing them into a man without a heart. If you polymorph them into a man without a heart, then you're basically polymorphing them into somebody dead, and that means that the death is part of the spell and can be dispelled. If you polymorph them into a rat and kill them by ordinary means they're just dead.

[Mephisto]

If you polymorph them into a man without a heart, then you're basically polymorphing them into somebody dead, and that means that the death is part of the spell and can be dispelled.

1. PaO yourself into a corpse.
2. Everybody thinks you're dead.
3. A few years later, loyal minion dispells the PaO.
4. ????
5. Profit!

[Devils_Advocate]

As has been said, that particular transformation isn't really abusive. It's just a Fort-save-or-die, nothing really special about that. That falls entirely within the intended uses of the spell. PaO should be banned, and hard, but that's because it allows a plethora of abuses involving turning things into other things that you then actually use for something. And because just it requires way to much interpretation and clarification from the DM. But just using a spell to kill someone is perfectly normal play.

Maybe you could get someone not to resist the spell by convincing them that you were actually going to do something beneficial. (Or maybe not. How much do you get to know about what it is you're saving against before you decide whether to deliberately fail a save? I don't think that's spelled out anywhere.) You could just polymorph them into a marionette or a statue at that point, though.

As usual, it's a lot easier to kill someone you can get to trust you. The problem is that the people you most want to kill often have the most reason to distrust you.

[Worira]

Yes, in the same sense that it doesn't say you can't move around when dead.

Yes, because saying that you'll die if transformed into something that would die in nature is exactly equivalent to being able to move around when dead. (Which, by the way, you can't do. If your hit points are in the negative, they're lower than your current nonlethal damage, rendering you unconcious.)

[Roderick_BR]

You could cut out the middle man and just polymorph them into a corpse. I'm fairly sure it's the same duration calculation.

"I spent a year dead by tax purposes. Then the wizard dispelled it."
I don't know if PAO allows this level of "artistic freedom". The text only says that it reproduces the other polymorphs and transmute X to Y spells, and makes creatures assume the mental stats of the new form.
If you want to kill someone with it, turn him into a twigh, and brake it apart.

Hmm... can someone be turned into a golem, or something with it?

[Uthug]

1. PaO yourself into a corpse.
2. Everybody thinks you're dead.
3. A few years later, loyal minion dispells the PaO.
4. ????
5. Profit!

Won't you decompose or something?

[Zeful]

Yes but because the death, and subsequent decomposition are part of the spell, so when the spell ends (in this case is dispelled) all effects caused by the spell are removed.

[Jothki]

But what happens if someone turns your corpse into a zombie or something?

[Thanatos 51-50]

PaO by the SRD

My interpretation - by RAW:

Factors included:
Animate -> Inanimate (therefore, not the same kingdom Animal and Mineral differance)
Animate -> Inanimate (Not the same Class. A mammal is not just a hunk of flesh)
Same Size (assuming you turn it into itself, doing this for say Rat -> Human corpse wouldn't last)+2 Duration! Wee!
Related (Assuming you, again, turn it into itself, as a Human is to a Human's corpse) +2 Duration
Same or Lower intellignece Negetive (A corpse is an Item, and therefore, does not have an intelligence score. This is a non-factor.)

Duration factor of 4 on our table gives us:
3 hours.
Congratualtions, you have turned a human being into a corpse for three hours! Great for sneaking "dead bodies" into a hospital ( a la Firefly)or ending a Ritual Combat by "killing a friend", and other such utilitarian uses.

If you're quick with the knife-work, you can use it to harvest organs for spell components (and the like) without killing another human, just rats! But you only have 20 minuetes.

[Zeful]

But what happens if someone turns your corpse into a zombie or something?

When the PaO is dispelled you no longer qualify as a corpse for Animate undead, and the spell stops affecting you. So you go from undead to living (at near full potential) in one action.

[Irreverent Fool]

Yes but because the death, and subsequent decomposition are part of the spell, so when the spell ends (in this case is dispelled) all effects caused by the spell are removed.

PAO says that if you turn someone into stone with it that it duplicates flesh to stone which stipulates that if you are damaged severely and then restored you have similar damage. I would figure that if you were dead and had time to decompose, you'd suffer all the ill affects of having decomposed. So let's hope those worms stay out of your brain.

I don't think that the decomposition is part of the spell. Consider a wizard who polymorphs himself into a mosquito and lands on the warrior's arm. If the warrior crushes him because he thinks the wizard is an actual bug, he's still crushed.

But as was mentioned, a dead body is kind of pushing the limits of what you need to have a permanent transformation anyway (up to the DM of course).

When the PaO is dispelled you no longer qualify as a corpse for Animate undead, and the spell stops affecting you. So you go from undead to living (at near full potential) in one action.

I think you're incorrect here. You see, animate dead has a duration of 'instantaneous' which means it only cares at the time you cast the spell. This means that when PAO wears off, you're still a zombie/whatever. This trick is mentioned in the 'Tome of Necromancy' (missing the link at the moment) Revised Necromancer Handbook. The idea is that you polymorph, say, an old boot into the dead body of whatever you happen to want a skeleton/zombie of, cast animate dead, and have whatever you happen to most desire.

Edit: I guess the fact that it's not explicitly mentioned in the rules is brought up there, but I still think it'd work for creating the corpse you need for a spell, though if you change one body to another it may revert to an undead form of it's original self. I dunno.

[Mephisto]

Won't you decompose or something?

Ring of continuous Gentle Repose? There's ways around decomposition.

[Irreverent Fool]

Ring of continuous Gentle Repose? There's ways around decomposition.

Get an item that casts a spell automatically every day at dawn and put it (and your corpse) in the vicinity of an Energy Transformation Field tied to that Gentle Repose spell. Of course, the tax man might suspect something is up in such a case...

[Aquillion]

I don't think any offensive use of PAO is really worth worrying about. As others have noted, if someone fails a fort save against a spell of about eighth level, you can make them die; worrying about PAO in that case isn't worth it.

A bigger problem is if people start trying to use PAO to, say, turn themselves into humans with 18 in all physical stats. And you know what? I think it's legal.

PAO inherets from Polymorph, and Polymorph inherets from Alter Self. Alter Self reads:

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind.

The normal ranges for a human's stats are 3-18. And if strength, constitution, and dexterity aren't 'significant physical qualities', then what are they? Strength, specifically, seems to me to fall directly into the same category as height, weight, and gender (it would be silly to argue that a bit of extra muscle is less significant than gender!)

Of course, Alter Self wouldn't let you use a form's enhanced strength attribute, so you'd just get the appearance of a more muscular form (which I don't think anyone would argue you could do)... but Polymorph and PAO do let you use that form's enhanced strength, and as it's written you can make that strength anything you want within your chosen form's natural limits.

Won't you decompose or something?

Hmm, an interesting question. As the rules are written... I think that yes, you would decompose, and you'd take damage for doing it. PAO actually changes you into the new form, it doesn't just give you the appearance of it, so someone turned into a corpse will decompose as normal... and while it's not totally clear whether decomposing would deal damage, it seems pretty likely.

[kme]

Consider a wizard who polymorphs himself into a mosquito and lands on the warrior's arm. If the warrior crushes him because he thinks the wizard is an actual bug, he's still crushed.

Wouldn't he just deal 1d3 nonlethal damage?

[kemmotar]

Why does everyone assume you poly the target into something dead? You poly him into a perfectly animated human...except he has no heart and will shortly die...but is in no way already dead...

Also, this extended to polying him into a limbless human(or member of his race anyway) for easier transportation and so he can't do anything to threaten you...

[Aquillion]

Why does everyone assume you poly the target into something dead? You poly him into a perfectly animated human...except he has no heart and will shortly die...but is in no way already dead...

Also, this extended to polying him into a limbless human(or member of his race anyway) for easier transportation and so he can't do anything to threaten you...

Oh, I meant to answer that part: I don't think you can do it.

PAO says: "This spell functions like polymorph..."

Polymorph says: "This spell functions like alter self..."

Alter Self says: "You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check."

Nothing in either PAO or Polymorph alters the lines I bolded, so I'd say that you can only PAO into creatures that would naturally exist somewhere. You can be a fat human or a tall human, but you can't be a 20-foot-tall human or a human with no heart.

[GoC]

Factors included:
Animate -> Inanimate (therefore, not the same kingdom Animal and Mineral differance)
Animate -> Inanimate (Not the same Class. A mammal is not just a hunk of flesh)
Same Size (assuming you turn it into itself, doing this for say Rat -> Human corpse wouldn't last)+2 Duration! Wee!
Related (Assuming you, again, turn it into itself, as a Human is to a Human's corpse) +2 Duration
Same or Lower intellignece Negetive (A corpse is an Item, and therefore, does not have an intelligence score. This is a non-factor.)

Pray tell why Marionette to human has +2 more duration then human to Marionette?

I'd give it 6 duration or 2 days.

[Aquillion]

Pray tell why Marionette to human has +2 more duration then human to Marionette?

I'd give it 6 duration or 2 days.

Let's see...

Assuming the Marionette is made out of wood, you get +2 related, possibly +2 intelligence. Are you giving it +2 size? Most marionettes aren't human-sized, you know. I think, looking at the examples, though, that you're not supposed to apply the intelligence factor when changing something from animate to inanimate... For instance, Sheep to Wool Coat is +6 (+2 kingdom, +2 class, +2 related... I guess they assume it's not the same size. Definitely no room for intelligence bonus, though.)

Of course, if the marionette is made of meat, leather, or some other animal material and is human-sized, you can make it human forever. But at that point it's hardly a marionette anymore.

[Chronos]

For instance, Sheep to Wool Coat is +6 (+2 kingdom, +2 class, +2 related... I guess they assume it's not the same size. Definitely no room for intelligence bonus, though.)

Have you ever seen sheep? I think the wool coat just might be more intelligent.