The Challenge

[gaymer_seattle]

A friend of mine and I have been long debating the merits and problems of the tendency of players to optimize their characters. Stats is all the best places. The best choice of Feat combinations. The latest greatest Prestige Class.

It has ended up, in our party, and our general view of D&D vX.Y being a numbers game, not a role playing game. I see a broad trend of character power (and thus success and chances of success) being based almost entirely on equations and luck of the die roll. And if a character encounters an obstacle that is not killable or destroyable or simply has an attack or defense that doesn't match the mold of the build there is complete and utter failure and/or major player disappointment

My challenge, to all the readers, build a character based on character. Here are the specs.

THE USUALS
Name
Race
Age
Physical Description (remember if your character is "hot" you had better be willing to invest points in CHA)

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - and why
Favorite Food - feel free to use real world choices (chinese, mexican, indian)
Favorite Sport - (Chess, Fencing, etc also count)
Favorite Sport - That your character plays (be prepared to justify with skills)
Favorite Music - again, feel free to use real world equivalents (Bards, be able to say why)
Favorite Childhood Toy - Why
Childhood Career Aspiration - Smith, Apothecary, Fireman - and why
Best Friend - Who were they? Where are they now? What do they do for a living? What made them a best friend?
First Crush - was it first boy/girlfriend of unrequited? Is it still going? How do they cope with your adventuring lifestyle?
First Career - Farmhand? Smith apprentice? Librarian? (Must justify with skills)
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Was it sports? Games? Hunting? Swimming, Camping? Climbing? Reading? (Be able to support with Skills)
Parents/Family - Alive? Dead? (if so how?) Their careers. Personalities (Kind, tough, Just, Fun). What are they doing today? How did they influence your personality?
Your Personality - Outgoing? Withdrawn? Studious? Clown? Describe daily habits that justify your personality. Describe how it influences your interactions with others.

THE BUILD
If you didn't spend at least an hour on the previous sections, go back and work on it some more. Don't make me assign a minimum number of words!

STATS
Put your dice away. Here are Stat Rules
Assume that all stats start at 8.
you have 40 points to spend
Here are the costs. It's Score followed by point costs

9 - 1
10 - 2
11 - 3
12 - 4
13 - 5
14 - 6
15 - 8
16 - 10
17 - 13
18 - 16

So you have 2 18s and everything else will have to be 9s and 10s
Consider "Hot" to be a CHA of 14 or higher

RACE
Base PBH races all apply. Race Ability scores are applied after the point cost is complete.

CLASS
Build a 10th level character.
You can use core classes, but not the Complete X books.
You can have one Prestige Class from the DMG for which you have the pre-reqs


Skills and Feats can come from PBH, DMG, and the Complete Series, but no splat or magazine articles.
Spells can come from PBH, Complete Arcane and Complete Divine

Use the Weapon Feat option from the Unearth Arcana

Don't bother buying equipment and weapons.

Build away and at the end, have a quick summary of who your character is

[MorkaisChosen]

If we're allowed PHB2 classes, I have a character I can throw in for this (Vethedar players may recognise her...).

[Crow]

I'd really like to throw one in too, but I will need some time.

[MorkaisChosen]

Actually, just to clarify the previous: the concept could work as a Fighter but, for fluff reasons, Knight works much better- Challenge and Shield Block in particular are exactly what she'd have.

[Rutee]

Now, forgive my squirrely ignorance, but what're you trying to prove? I might be up to a dip through DnD material regardless, just to keep it in mind in case I do play, but I am curious on what you're trying to demonstrate.

Also, is Tome of Battle fine?

[Tengu]

I can only assume that he wants to compare how much effort will people put into creating the fluff, and how much into the crunch.

[Rutee]

If that were true, that wouldn't seem strictly fair; These are characters who aren't going to get played, and crunch takes significantly less mental effort then their story.

Edit: I think I see what the OP's trying to do. You're.. not seriously thinking about whether DnD as a system is designed to facilitate roleplaying first, are you? 'cause, it's not. It's a thoroughly gamist-tilted system. Look at where the bulk of the rules in the PHB go. It really is glorified Nethack, going by the base rules. There's no mechanical means with which to add a spurt of extra effectiveness when dramatic appropriateness. On a character sheet, almost 90% of the space goes towards combat-wombat stuff. There's no mechanical room for more then one party face; Further on that note, there's not much to take to be a better face; Mechanically speaking, the tricky, smooth talking character is generally only slightly better then the reticent barbarian. It's.. pretty ridiculous.. if you're looking for a more narratively tilted system, I'd recommend White Wolf's WoD or Exalted setups, offhand...

[SoD]

True, but some people like creating stuff just for the fun of creating them. Me for example, I'll be running up one later today.

[MorkaisChosen]

Actually, my intention's to bung up a character I'm already playing, with a few more details- I'm generally driven by the "Hey, cool" concept factor and pick feats and stuff to fit that, so I do tend to do this kind of thing anyway.

[Mad Maudlin]

Okay, I think this is in the spirit of the challenge - A character who might be easier to play if her stats didn't adhere to her story/personality. So, I give you: a fallen paladin, plumbing the depths of personal redemption.

I'll put the summary first, because that's less confusing: She fast-tracked her way into paladinhood as a squire to an older paladin, and she was more Good than Lawful. Once she left her master, she began her crusade against evil, and eventually a young sorcerer joined her fight. He was Elan-sweet without being Elan-stupid, and she felt all sorts of motherly urges towards him. She promised to protect him. Then their party came up against some kind of aberration, and it became apparent that the only way to stop this evil was to sacrifice the sorcerer's life. The sorcerer went willingly to his death, but the paladin's guilt dragged her out of her alignment and she fell. She left the party soon after, and has not atoned.

Now she's taken several levels in beguiler and begun her fight against evil with some new tactics. The trick she uses most often is to join an evil adventuring party - masquerading as a Chaotic Evil lunatic with spellcasting abilities - then pick them off one by one.

Name : Ivy Leyons
Race : Human
Age : 26-27
Physical Description : She's more lithe-muscled than chunky, but she's really no fairy princess, even a couple of years after falling and becoming an arcane caster. Wheat-blonde hair, which goes nicely into a metaphor with cornflower-blue eyes. She doesn't tend to tan well, so she has quite pale skin.

Favorite Color - She's always thought white and gold were a pretty combination, but always shied away from wearing them because white makes her look like a ghost. Since she fell, though, she just doesn't care, and wears white robes with gold trim cuz she can.
Favorite Food - She's not a big fan of sweet things, except that her mother always used to make this hazelnut cake/pastry thing that she still remembers despite her years away from home. Apart from that, she prefers no-frills food, the meat-and-potatoes stuff.
Favorite Sport - She's never really seen the point of spectator sports. See next answer...
Favorite Sport (That your character plays) - Running. Or climbing. Or swimming. She's always been the active type, and she prefers her activity in solitude. As a child she would sometimes leave home in the morning, and just see how far she could travel in a straight line before turning back at midday.
Favorite Music - Her guilty pleasure (Totally not guilty after her fall - she just doesn’t care anymore) is female vocal music. She can't hold a tune herself, but she loves listening to the kind of singer who sings deep meaningful songs. Real world example, probably Vienna Teng. But she pretends to like proud ballads and the like.
Favorite Childhood Toy - The building blocks. She'd spend hours creating these elaborate structures, and come up with a function for each room and names for the people who lived there and everything. Although she didn't really need many toys... she was the kind of child whose peas would raise an organized assault against her potatoes at mealtimes (the carrots were officers steadying the skittish pea ranks).
Childhood Career Aspiration - She always knew exactly what she was going to be – an explorer. And she was going to help build a new world wherever there wasn't one already. She always liked the idea of building cities on the moon - her teacher told her it was really big and empty, so it would be perfect for sowing the seeds of utopia, right?
Best Friend - She was the archetypical 'precocious child', so she always made friends easily. And she decided that every friend of hers was her best friend, whether they'd know each other since before they could speak or they'd only met yesterday. She had a group of friends whose parents were close, so they'd known each other since birth, but they grew apart when these kids turned out to be the local rebels. Ivy was Lawful Good right from the beginning. They were still friendly, but Ivy opted out of rebelling with them.
First Crush - She was never interested in the village boys, which further alienated her from her rebellious friends who were playing doctor fairly young. Then, when she was in her early teens, a female Paladin of Ilmater came riding through town on all sorts of diplomatic missions, and found reason to stay for a while. For Ivy, it was love at first sight. After a lot of convincing, the paladin agreed to bring Ivy along as her squire. Over time the crush developed from a burning desire to please her master to an encompassing ambition to be like her.
First Career - Her mother was a baker, and encouraged Ivy to help in the bakehouse, right up until it transpired that Ivy had an uncanny talent for burning things. So she was relegated to other chores, and never had the beginnings of any real career, until she swept out of town as a paladin's squire.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - When she wasn’t making herself useful somewhere (at home or helping the neighbors), she would usually be running or swimming in the lake outside town. There were all sorts of interesting climbing rocks by the lake as well, and she could easily exercise herself into a pleasantly mindless exhaustion.
Parents/Family - Her mother's still baking, but her father had to retire from his job as a farm hand after an accident left him with a weak knee. Their second daughter, Jenny, much younger than Ivy (by about eight years), has joined her mother in the bakehouse. She is much better than Ivy was. Ivy had a good relationship with both her parents, and was really devoted to Jenny - since Jenny was old enough to speak, people were comparing her unfavorably with her older sister, and this upset Ivy no end. Years after, even after her fall, Ivy still hates to see a child being told she should be better than she is.
Your Personality - As a paladin, she was more Galahad than Lancelot. True to her god, Ilmater, she hated to see anyone in pain and would gladly place herself in pain's way to spare someone she barely knew. If she saw a moral ambiguity, her first instinct was to heal, not to destroy. However, since her fall, she's been haunted by her conscience, and believes she doesn't deserve redemption. She'll still place herself in harm's way, but she won't interact fully with the people she wants to protect. If she sees a cause worth fighting for, she'll still fight, but she's lost the will, if not the urge, to save people in spiritual turmoil. She feels it would be too hypocritical.

Stats-

Str - 16
Dex - 13
Con - 14
Int - 12
Wis - 13
Cha - 18

Race - Human

Class - Four useless levels of Paladin, six levels of Beguiler


Skills - Bluff +13, Climb +1, Diplomacy +7, Disable Device +5, Disguise +12, Forgery +5, Handle Animal +3, Heal +5, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +4, Move Silently +6, Open Lock +2, Search +3, Sense Motive +7, Swim +1 (As a paladin, she sank all her skill points into Diplomacy and Sense Motive, with some ranks in things like Heal and Handle Animal. After falling, she started training herself to infiltrate evil adventuring parties. She didn't put any more effort into her paladin skills.)

Feats - Athletic, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Blind-fight, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Deceitful.

Spells as Beguiler Spell list.

Hm... I actually really like this character now... If I ever have to start a campaign at 10th level, I may come back to her. (Maybe a DM would let me atone during the game )

[helium3]

Edit: I think I see what the OP's trying to do. You're.. not seriously thinking about whether DnD as a system is designed to facilitate roleplaying first, are you? 'cause, it's not. It's a thoroughly gamist-tilted system. Look at where the bulk of the rules in the PHB go. It really is glorified Nethack, going by the base rules. There's no mechanical means with which to add a spurt of extra effectiveness when dramatic appropriateness. On a character sheet, almost 90% of the space goes towards combat-wombat stuff.

So the way I play an RPG should be entirely dictated by what's contained within the rule-set and displayed on the character sheet? Funny, that's nearly the exact same argument proffered by the player Gaymer_Seattle's talking about when he and I were discussing why he's unable and unwilling to role-play.

"My character's stat-block doesn't have mechanics describing his interests and goals, so he doesn't have any other than to be good at what's described in his stat-block."

That's a near verbatim quote from my conversation with him.

Now, I get what you're saying and I actually agree. Any RPG is designed to create a specific play experience when used in accordance with its rules. Most RPG's attempt to emulate both a genre and a playstyle.

D&D's big problem is that while its genre is fairly broad (too broad some might say) it claims to have a downright expansive playstyle. Even way back in 2nd edition there was much hand wringing in the various DM oriented books about the importance of role-playing and how to prevent your game from devolving into "hack-and-slash."

In a sense, this is probably what I respect most about the new edition that's coming out. Its shed much of this false patina of "you can have any playstyle you want" garbage and is much more nakedly a mini's based skirmish game, which is what D&D started out as in the first place. Personally, I wish WotC would drop the "it can be anything to anyone" act entirely, but I suppose that would result in some loss of market share so they aren't likely to do that.

Getting back to the OP, I think the best way to accomplish what gaymer_seattle's asking for is to take a D&D character and translate it into a WoD character. That's what I would do if I had a copy of Mage : The Ascension, the only WW game I've played. Maybe I should buy a copy . . .

[KoDT69]

Name - Colossus Hootie (name pun, like calling a huge guy "Tiny", and the last name, well Hootie and the Blowfish had just come out and the DM assigned me the name on a whim )
Race - Halfling
Age - 25

Physical Description - A dashing young halfling about 3'6" and of a lean athletic build is very good looking, having deep hunter green hair and crystal blue eyes that always seem to sparkle even in the darkest light. He has a few very colorful and ornate tatoos on his forearms and biceps highlighted by his sleeveless assortment of shirts His muscles are toned and well defined.

Favorite Color - Lime Green - While being a somewhat natural color, it still has a tendancy to be easily noticed amongst other colors.

Favorite Food - Meat and potatoes. While appearing to have more exotic tastes, you just can't beat the basics. Although he will try anything twice

Favorite Sport - Gladiator Tournaments - He may be small, but he loves to show off his prowess in combat.

Favorite Music - Anything lively that he can dance to.

Favorite Childhood Toy - The throwing dagger - He was taught at a very young age that a dagger can be deadly and fun at the same time. He learned to respect the blade and make it an extension of himself.

Childhood Career Aspiration - Adventurer - His excessive wonderlust combined with his constant dagger practice led him to believe he would be able to see the worlds and hold his own in a good fight.

Best Friend - Logan the Minotaur Cleric of St. Cuthbert. They became good friends after meeting in a tavern while taking cover from a huge tropical storm. They soon found they could trust each other completely and that their talents and beliefs were quite complimentary.

First Crush - His first crush was on a you girl travelling with a nomadic barbarian tribe that passed through his village when he was only 10 years old. They played together by the pond, climbed in the trees, and traded stories of their family heritages. It was too good to last though. The tribe had only spent a couple days in the village and suprisingly enough made pleasant company to the halfling townsfolk. This tribe was a bit more civilized, but still would have benefitted from the use of proper dining utensils! He made a vow to find her tribe again someday. This was a part of his wonderlust, the urge to head north from home, in search of that barbarian girl. He still seeks her to this day...

First Career - Dance Instructor - He was a born natural and had the insight to profit from his enjoyable hobby.

Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Dancing and courting ladies - He who is good at those has little care for other hobbies

Parents/Family - His parents died not from disease, village raiding, or any other cliche stuff, but from old age. They had 5 children, Colossus being the last, and they were already at the top end of middle-age, passing into the elder years at the time of his birth. His father was a Bard who entertained the village for many years, not often leaving home. He was a good father and spent quality time with all of the children. He was strict with punishment and taught that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. This would shape young Colossus into what he is today. His mother was a Preistess of Arvoreen and a stalwart defender of the Halfling village. Mother was actually much stronger than father in most aspects. It was also mother who taught him to dance.

Your Personality - He is very outgoing and polite, but somewhat of a showoff. He normally interacts with people in a positive way, but can be rather irritating when anything competitive arises. He also has a dark side, only evoked from intentional wrong-doing. He craves the taste of vengeance. Not his best quality, but the most defining.

Crunch - Fighter 4 / Bard 3 / Rogue 3
STR - 16 (base 18 -2 racial) =16
DEX - 16 (base 14 +2 racial) =6
CON - 10 =2
INT - 10 =2
WIS - 10 =2
CHA - 16 =10
=40 point buy

Skill ranks in
Perform (Dance)
Diplomacy
Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)
Sense Motive
Spot
Listen
Tumble

Fighting Style - 2 weapon fighter, preferring daggers as a primary weapon. He carries 6 throwing daggers plus his 2 larger melee daggers. He is quick to engage in melee and using light armor, try to take advantage of any mobility granted from skill or terrain advantages. If there is an audience, he will embellish and upstage the enemy whenever possible, often using insults or mockery to entertain the spectators and unnerve the opponent.

I did play this kind of character in a real game, and regardless of his lack of optimization, still contributed meaningfully to the campaign in almost every scenario.

[gaymer_seattle]

Before I justify my purpose in all of this I'm going to give you my own back story of D & D experience to show the progression I have seen in myself and a lot of what I see in the game today.

MY BACK STORY
I started playing D&D at the end of 1st Edition Circa 1988 when I was just entering High School. I had been a hard core fan of Dragon Lance and even picked up the RPG book, not really realizing that there was a game to be had of it. I met some people who were D&D players and I got into the game struggling mightily with THAC0 (ain't that a dead term) and the disappointment that no matter what I was willing to sacrifice, my wizard only had one (yes count 'em one) first level spell to begin with.

As my group changed and we moved into 2nd Edition I watched as my "Fighter" friends started the only math they would ever enjoy. "I do a minimum damage of X and a maximum damage of Y". This campaign eventually ran its course and a few years later just out of high school we had a new DM and we started a campaign that had an unusually high emotional content. While I'm not sure I would ever want to play a game that intense again, it was a great experience, and we had almost none of the of character calculating. Granted there was less to be done in 2nd Edition, but still there were no concerns about how much damage a character could do in a single hit or a single attack round.

It would be almost 10 years before I got involved in D&D again. In the mean time I played some World of Darkness, ShadowRun, and Alternity. Video games got more into the RP part of RPG (Final Fantasy 7 is still one of my favs).

I met some people who were running a 2nd edition campaign in Fall of 2001 right as 3rd edition was coming out. I got in and proceeded to play a series of characters through 2 home brews and one Eberron campaign that each had "useless" skills and feats, from a combat stand point, but were very much in line with the character's personality. This was in part due to the fact that I was in school and didn't have hours and hours to spend reading all the options and how they might interact with one another. The other reason was, I picked skills and feats that were explained by the character's background.

NOW TO POINT OF THE EXERCISE

I completely disagree that D&D is a game-ist game. No more so than any other game. It's entirely the players and the DMs that make it so. Or not so. If a DM makes a campaign which is a series of monstrous encounters, and the players never push for anything but the next XP fix then you have a game-ist campaign. If you have a DM that has an extra X number of XP points that goto the player with the best Role Playing, or best problem solving (that doesn't involve maximum damage), if you have players who want to pursue story arcs that are relevant to their character's development then you have a role playing campaign. It's all based on how you define the rewards of the play.

Now, I have already seen in this endeavor that people have taken it somewhat seriously. Indeed it is easier to do the math than write the story, but when it comes down to it, the details I have are what it takes to create a character. If you are just rolling stats, adding a class and feats, and doing some of the other calculations you haven't created a character, you have created a stat block. You have created an something with all the color, texture and life of an equation.

Additionally, I don't see the challenge as being pointless. These characters could very well be played. They can be an NPC in a game you are running. They can be your back up character if you character buys some agricultural territory. If you want to fuss with the level (up and down) they can be a character for a new game that isn't starting at first.

The long and short of it is, you have created a playable character for any reason. I put limitations on class pure to avoid any munchinism. Outside this challenge change the class to what you need it to be. Play the character. You put in the effort, you deserve it

[Rutee]

So the way I play an RPG should be entirely dictated by what's contained within the rule-set and displayed on the character sheet? Funny, that's nearly the exact same argument proffered by the player Gaymer_Seattle's talking about when he and I were discussing why he's unable and unwilling to role-play.

Well, you pretty much clarified what I meant on your own, so... XD

I completely disagree that D&D is a game-ist game. No more so than any other game. It's entirely the players and the DMs that make it so. Or not so. If a DM makes a campaign which is a series of monstrous encounters, and the players never push for anything but the next XP fix then you have a game-ist campaign. If you have a DM that has an extra X number of XP points that goto the player with the best Role Playing, or best problem solving (that doesn't involve maximum damage), if you have players who want to pursue story arcs that are relevant to their character's development then you have a role playing campaign. It's all based on how you define the rewards of the play.

I apologize profusely for any inconvenience this statement makes, but you're wrong; DnD as a system is entirely gamist. You /can/ job it into something else, of course, and there's nothing stopping you from doing so. You can play however you want, after all; Nobody's going to hunt you down for playing DnD as roleplay, or Exalted as Hack n' Slash, or what have you. The system, however, is very clearly meant to accommodate hack n' slash and combat first, not roleplay. The rules for advancement primarily improve you as a combatant. Basically, my point is that, in the words of an above poster, the challenges DnD is trying to create for its players are primarily combat or dungeon-crawl oriented. If you're going to argue that DnD is a thoroughly gamist system, argue against where the bulk of its rules are tilted, not that "I can do whatever I want with it", as that's a system-neutral truism.

Anyway, regardless of your challenge, I'm using ToB, come to think of it. I couldn't really care less about munchkinism, just accurately reflecting both skills and combat style (Which, given that I'm translating a character from a different RP to this, is hard; After all, that system doesn't tie one's combat style choice into one's skill selection..) I create full characters as a matter of course; I don't need your challenge to show me /that/.. Another post incoming shortly, I suppose.

[gaymer_seattle]

I was actually fortunate enough to have taken a class on game design. The basics of the game is that form and function must work together.

Combat is integral part of almost every RPG. It is necessary component of story telling: Conflict. Man vs Man, Man vs Beast, etc. But if that was all there was to D&D why bother with most of the skills? Why bother having Feats that augment skills? Why bother with spells that do not either directly prevent damage, heal damage, or deal damage? Why bother with colorful names and historical context? Why not just have the game be an elaborate version of Pong?

Why not just box up your books and go play World of Warcraft?

D&D has created a mechanism by which you suspend a certain amount of disbelief and portray an alter ego. Just because the most complex system (combat) has the most rules doesn't mean that combat is the sole purpose. Xp is not awarded based on how many opponents you kill. XP is awarded based on CRs. CRs are best known for being assigned to monsters, but they also apply to traps. They can be applied to puzzles. They can be applied to town librarian who can't just be killed to give you what you want.

The limitations of the game are in the creativity of the players (including DM) not on a base set of numbers that are suppose to represent simplified versions of real world measurements

[Rutee]

This is a vaguely irritating impulse to battle.. You aren't arguing my point; You're arguing that the mythical reason I play DnD (I basically /don't/, but you're thinking that if I did, it would be for pure gamism) is wrong, and that I should play something else, rather then providing a proper argument against the rules being gamist tilted.

CR, as described and enumerated in the book, /can/ be applied to anything, but the only /good/ guidelines are monsters and traps. And traps don't have that many good guidelines, to boot. Not to mention that Traps are part of dungeon crawling...

As to skills? Disable Device, Open Lock, About half the Knowledge skills as printed (All of them, if you look at the Gaming Article about how to make the other Knowledge Skills good), Tumble, Jump, Bluff, Sense Motive, etc.. almost all get used in dungeon crawling or combat. In fact, I'd say the only skill that can't be is Diplomacy, and Diplomacy isn't really a supported skill. Very simplistic rules, etc.

If DnD as a system is not based on combat and dungeon crawling, why are those the only real aspects that improve significantly with level, or with wealth, within the books? You've /played/ other systems. You /recognize/ that there are advancement and skill systems that de-emphasize combat, and more readily support a conflict that isn't a straight up fight. Why the opposition?

[Chronos]

I don't feel like creating a whole new character, here, so I'll just insert a character I've played in the past, including everything that I did actually have fleshed out, and omitting what I didn't.

[spoiler]THE USUALS
Name: Bolfo Highburrow
Race: Hobbit (my characters never refer to themselves as "halfling", since from their perspective, they're full-sized, and humans are "Bigs").
Age: 40
Physical Description (remember if your character is "hot" you had better be willing to invest points in CHA): Although Bolfo was not blessed with particularly good looks, he's spent considerable time and effort refining himself, and presents a very distinguished, professional face to the world. Where some might be described as a "diamond in the rough", Bolfo is more of a very well-cut garnet. He's given to ostentation, but always stops short of outright gaudiness. In fact, it's this appreciation of an ostentatious lifestyle which motivates his adventures: The good things in life cost money, and adventuring is a ready source of it.

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - and why
never came up

Favorite Food - feel free to use real world choices (chinese, mexican, indian):
Liver and onions, served with plenty of sauteed mushrooms, and a mug of good stout beer

Favorite Sport - (Chess, Fencing, etc also count):
Polo, or something similarly highbrow and distinguished

Favorite Sport - That your character plays (be prepared to justify with skills)
never came up

Favorite Music - again, feel free to use real world equivalents (Bards, be able to say why)
Classical

Favorite Childhood Toy - Why
never came up, though he does buy toys for his niece and nephew (see Family, below)

Childhood Career Aspiration - Smith, Apothecary, Fireman - and why
Adventurer, because he wants the fame, fortune, and treasure

Best Friend - Who were they? Where are they now? What do they do for a living? What made them a best friend?
never came up

First Crush - was it first boy/girlfriend of unrequited? Is it still going? How do they cope with your adventuring lifestyle?
never came up, though he might settle down if he ever got a large enough stash of wealth

First Career - Farmhand? Smith apprentice? Librarian? (Must justify with skills)
Managing the family plantation

Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Was it sports? Games? Hunting? Swimming, Camping? Climbing? Reading? (Be able to support with Skills)
Homebrewing beer

Parents/Family - Alive? Dead? (if so how?) Their careers. Personalities (Kind, tough, Just, Fun). What are they doing today? How did they influence your personality?
Parents (Tollo and Ruby (nee Fairbairn) Highburrow) are both dead, and left Highburrow Farms (a small pipeweed plantation) to Bolfo and his sister Lily. Although the Highburrows generally frown on adventure, family legend on his mother's side says that they are descended from the famous Elanor Fairbairn, and hence from some rather notable adventurers, and it's likely that this connection served as an inspiration for Bolfo. The Highburrow family is rather well-to-do, and each generation is traditionally expected to expand the family's fortunes. Bolfo used the liquid portion of his inheritance to outfit himself for his first adventures, while leaving his share of the farm and homestead (the bulk of the estate) in trust with his sister. Although he nominally retains half ownership, he neither has any control of nor receives any profit from the land (beyond refilling his weed-pouch whenever he comes to visit), and Lily has a signed document to that effect (if she bothered to keep it; she's much less meticulous about such things than her brother). Lily is married to Rastin Plumpfellow, an eminently sensible hobbit who frowns on his connection to "that disgraceful adventurer", but Lily is kindly inclined to and tolerant of her brother. Lily and Rastin have two children, Thaddin, age 13, and Daffodil, age 9. His family are the most important people in the world to Bolfo, and he tries to visit regularly, generally bringing presents for his niece and nephew and a bit of gold for his sister, to which Rastin generally objects. Knowing that an adventurer's life is a dangerous one, Bolfo always carries a copy of his will on his person, which specifies (in extensive legalese) that if he should die without chance of raising, his adventuring equipment (including magical items) should be left to Thaddin, all gems, jewelry, and works of art he owns should be left to Daffodil, 10% of his liquid assets should go to whomever should execute his will, and the remainder (including his share of the farm) should revert to Lily.

Your Personality - Outgoing? Withdrawn? Studious? Clown? Describe daily habits that justify your personality. Describe how it influences your interactions with others.
Appearances are very important to Bolfo, and he takes care to always maintain an appearance of proper gentility. He lives by his sworn (and usually signed) word, and will insist upon the finest details of a contract, but once the contract is set in stone, is likely to buy a round of drinks for his business partner, and leave a generous tip. Even more than he enjoys earning money, he enjoys spending it, and even more than spending money, he enjoys making his spending publicly known and visible.

More information (didn't fit any of the above categories):
Bolfo describes himself by profession as a "Professional treasure hunter". He would never stand for the label of "thief" or "rogue", since he only ever works on behalf of the legitimate owner of a treasure, or in cases where there is no legitimate owner. He considers altruism admirable, and is free with his money, but will adventure only for fair payment. He's always willing to cooperate with authorities, but takes care to never make any organized enemies (on either side of the law), and will therefore not take any job which involves working for or against any thieves' guild. Once he takes a contract, he'll see it through, but before accepting a contract, he'll make sure that it's to his advantage.

Build: Halfling rogue 10
Stats (as I actually played him, works out to 36 point buy):
10 Str
18 Dex
12 Con
15 Int
10 Wis
16 Cha

Skill ranks:
Languages: Common, Halfling, Elvish, Goblin
13 Search
13 Disable Device
13 Open Lock
13 Hide
13 Move Silently
13 Tumble
13 Diplomacy
13 Listen
7 Use Rope
4 Profession: Brewing
4 Profession: Cooking
7 Craft: Trapmaking
4 Profession: Farming

[ZekeArgo]

So wait... you want people to show how well they can write fluff? I mean this is essentially what your asking for, since you've said that the whole "favorite food, favorite sport, favorite whatever" portion, that can be applied to any system regardless to the amount of crunch it has, is the most important part.

I'm just kinda... I dunno what to say. Is this like some kind of junk-waving contest? "Look at all of the history I can put into characters, despite needing the crunch stuff to interact with the system."?

Everything about your post *screams* Stormwind Fallacy, at least in attitude, to tell the truth. The insistence on core with 1 DMG PrC (because you totally can't break the game if you only use core stuff... oh wait...).

So yeah, I have to echo Rutee here: what, exactly, is the point in this exercise?

[Rutee]

Well, I found a /small/ point. I learned a little bit about my character!

A note, the character I am currently translating comes from what is effectively 190 CE China, after adding some Wuxia. This is fairly important to understand where she's coming from with some of these choices. She's a trickster at heart, and serves her Lady, Xun Ning, with elan and treachery. Treachery aimed at other people, usually, though she has innocent tricks to play on her friends too.


THE USUALS
Name - Lin Zam, a pun in Chinese on Lin Zan, or "Forest's Favor", and Zam, a meaningless phrase I happen to like.
Race - Human
Age - 17
Alignment: CG
Physical Description - She's about 4'11", with a very dark black hair, as well as a tanned asian skin tone (Regrettably, I don't know what that translates into, so I'm afraid you'll just have to imagine a tanned asian yourself). The tan has recently been fading away, a merciful blessing to Zam. She doesn't like being marked as so obviously a farmer's child. She /could/ be beautiful, if she tried ot be, as she often did with her parents, but now that she's her own woman, she doesn't usually dress herself up as a 'proper' woman (Unless her purposes are best served as such.) She most commonly dresses in a dull red peasant's tunic with a skirt, with a commoner's sandals, with more ornate leggings when she must enter battle regalia for some insane reason. Either way, she moves with a sort of fluid grace that belies the padding underneath the tunic, when not overwhelmed with some sort of emotion.

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - Red. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Favorite Food - The palace chef's variant on fried rice. Though that could change sometime.. it's not like she has a very enlightened palette. She's loved everything he's made, so her favorite food is probably "Anything he makes".

Favorite Sport - Go. Not like she has many options in what's effectively 190 CE China :P
Favorite Sport - Go, but she really only plays to indulge Zhong Li. She's too terrible at the actual strategy behind it; She mostly just watches.

Favorite Music - Those weird Sitars her boss had brought in from India. They're unusual, new, and cool. One of the few people she won't use as the butt of her joke are the palace performers. And the chefs... you don't play pranks on the people who fix your food! Everyone else is golden though, including Xun Ning.

Favorite Childhood Toy - Her doll from when she was small, because it was all she had.

Childhood Career Aspiration - None. Women, raised to believe they could have a function outside of housewifery and perhaps farming? What is this madness? Well, if she were raised in Wu Wei, that mighta happened, but.. not anywhere else!

Best Friend - Probably her boss, Xun Ning. She hasn't gotten to interact too much with the other really noteworthy people where she's at, and the only near-lasting tie from her old life was the kindly martial arts instructor, Ironheart Nan.

First Crush - The boy next door, Liu Zhen. He was cute and nice, a shopkeep's son, and really sweet on Zam. She didn't ever think she loved him, but he wouldn't be so bad to spend her life with, relatively. He even wasn't too intrusive on her hobbies, like some potential suitors.. but he wasn't really rich enough. Her parents assured him that he wasn't nearly rich enough to marry her, and that he was to never see her again. While /that/ was broken, their time spent together would never be the same again. Too worrisome and paranoid, those times were.

First Career - None, really, before enterring Xun Ning's service; She left before she was forced into really becoming a trophy wife for some noble, but she knows how to do so, at least. So I suppose, technically, her first career would be "Bodyguard and general troubleshooter for the Most August Kingdom of Wu Wei"..

Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Playing pranks on people, definitely. Especially all the setup that goes /into/ that. And the sneaking around, and the mad giggling after the fact and.. A very, very distant second might be her martial arts training from her master, because he actually taught her that she /could/ be something more then the pale reflection of her husband. While that was always something she

Parents/Family - Slaving away in Han Zhong, muttering about how one of their chances at upward mobility is gone. Very unfun and uninteresting people, who's chief concerns are serving the nobility through crop growth, and trying to get into a better position in life.

Your Personality - Very mischievous. The only real escape she had from boredom was to mess with people for a very long time, and it remained the only entertaining one even after she was taught how to read. It isn't even just tricking people; It's tricking them into lessons that they didn't see coming that's fun; Especially in these dangerous times, where there really /can/ be assassins anywhere; At least some level of caution is needed, even within one's own sanctum! At least, that's what she tells herself when someone gets stuck in her paste trap, or when there's thousands of crickets in the boss' bedroom, raising a racket..

THE BUILD
If you didn't spend at least an hour on the previous sections, go back and work on it some more. Don't make me assign a minimum number of words!

STATS
Put your dice away. Here are Stat Rules
Assume that all stats start at 8.
you have 40 points to spend
Here are the costs. It's Score followed by point costs

Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
40 points after stat advances from levels 4/8. Without those, it's Str. 14.

RACE
Human

CLASS
Swordsage 10. I laugh at your restrictions!

Skills: 117 Skillpoints
Balance: 8 ranks
Climb: 8 ranks
Bluff: 5 ranks
Disguise: 5 ranks
Gather Information: 3 ranks
Hide: 13 ranks
Jump: 8 ranks
Move Silent: 13 ranks
Tumble: 13 ranks
Sense Motive: 13 ranks
Climb: 8 ranks
Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty: 2 Ranks
Knowledge: (Local): 5 ranks

Maneuvers Known:
5th Level: 4
4th Level: 4
3rd Level: 4
2nd Level: 3

STances:
1, 1, 3, 5

2nd Level
Desert Wind:
Fiery Riposte, Flashing Sun
Shadow Hand
Cloak of Deception, Drain Vitality

3rd Level:
Death Mark
Feigned Opening
Strength Draining Strike

4th Level:
Searing Charge
Attack of the Broken Shield
Obscuring Shadow Veil
Hand of Death

5th Level
Dragon's Flame
Mirrored Pursuit
Bloodletting Strike
Shadow Stride

Stances Known: 4
Flame's Blessing
Giant Killing Style
Assassin's Stance
Step of the Dancing Moth

Feats:
Shadow Blade
Deceitful
Adaptive Style
Improved Init.
Stealthy

Weapon of Choice: Long daggers attached to the end of a chain. I guess statistically that comes down to a Spiked Chain?

Edit: WTF? The C/P didn't work. Also, forget Feats, Weapon of Choice, and that there was a Gather Information skill.

[gaymer_seattle]

So wait... you want people to show how well they can write fluff? I mean this is essentially what your asking for, since you've said that the whole "favorite food, favorite sport, favorite whatever" portion, that can be applied to any system regardless to the amount of crunch it has, is the most important part.

I'm just kinda... I dunno what to say. Is this like some kind of junk-waving contest? "Look at all of the history I can put into characters, despite needing the crunch stuff to interact with the system."?

Everything about your post *screams* Stormwind Fallacy, at least in attitude, to tell the truth. The insistence on core with 1 DMG PrC (because you totally can't break the game if you only use core stuff... oh wait...).

So yeah, I have to echo Rutee here: what, exactly, is the point in this exercise?

I honestly have no idea what Stormwind Fallacy is. I keep hearing "you essentially want to write fluff". My only response to that is: Was Lord of the Rings fluff? I use that particular example only because so many people are familiar with it. But you can choose any really good book of any genre. Pick a character you love or you despise and chances are you will be able to answer a lot of the questions I posted either by the writer flat out telling you, or by some level of inference. I'm not asking you to write "fluff", I'm asking you to write about a character outside the game mechanics, and then using the game mechanics to support the character instead of the other way around.

[Zincorium]

I honestly have no idea what Stormwind Fallacy is. I keep hearing "you essentially want to write fluff". My only response to that is: Was Lord of the Rings fluff? I use that particular example only because so many people are familiar with it. But you can choose any really good book of any genre. Pick a character you love or you despise and chances are you will be able to answer a lot of the questions I posted either by the writer flat out telling you, or by some level of inference. I'm not asking you to write "fluff", I'm asking you to write about a character outside the game mechanics, and then using the game mechanics to support the character instead of the other way around.

Er, that's what fluff refers to. 'Crunch' is the hard mechanical stuff, BAB, hp and so forth. Fluff is exactly what you've challenged people to write. It doesn't mean that it's somehow extraneous, it means that it's all nebulous and forms much of the character without weighting it down with hard numbers.

So yes, lord of the rings is fluff. No one is checking to see if frodo rolled high enough to succeed at a grapple check versus gollum. If you dislike the term, don't use it, but it's best to at least realize what other people mean by it.

The stormwind fallacy is best summarized as follows:

Mechanical optimization and character depth and flavor, while possibly correlated, do not have a cause and effect relationship.

I am not a bad roleplayer simply because I can build a powerful character. I am not a bad optimizer because I go in depth with my character's motivation and concept. You can be good at both, you can be bad at both, and you can favor one over the other. But as long as the group is having fun there is no wrong way to play.

[Ganurath]

THE USUALS
Name: Bren
Race: Halfling
Age: 23
Physical Description: A well-built halfling of modest appearances, Bren keeps his hair cut short so that he doesn't need to be distracted by it when he needs to do things. Brown hair, green eyes, clean shaven, I'll get back to this if I remember to after dealing with his equipment.

THE NOT USUALS
Favorite Color - He never actually gave it any thought, but if asked he'd favor black. Not very stimulating visually, which allows one to think easier.
Favorite Food - Trail Bars, since Bren values nutrition over taste.
Favorite Sport - Footracing.
Favorite Sport - Footracing.
Favorite Music - Any soothing, relaxing tune will do.
Favorite Childhood Toy - Skiprocks! He wasn't as good at it as his peers, but he did enjoy it.
Childhood Career Aspiration - Master Thief, of course. Family tradition, and all that. Although it could be said it was less his aspiration than his father's, and he didn't get any ideas to the contrary until later in life.
Best Friend - Ganurath, the half-orc. He's running a town somewhere. He was more of a childhood friend, really; he did an escort job for his family's caravan when some cultists of Zarus threatened it, and showed Bren how to be faster than anyone else.
First Crush - A girl from another caravan, didn't even get her name. He saw her dancing, the wind whipping on her dress... A dervish? She was from another caravan, so he didn't know anything about her. Oh, but they had a night to remember! Best not to go into details, so we'll call it a plot hook and leave it at that.
First Career - His first job was keeping an eye out for trouble for the caravan. Pretty sure that that's every halfling's first job, if you think about it.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Skiprocks was fun, but he liked winning better than losing, so he leaned toward running after meeting Ganurath.
Parents/Family - Parents are presumably alive, and with the caravan still. His father was always encouraging him toward the skillset of a thief, but his mother was more nurturing of what goals Bren wanted to pursue.
Your Personality - Extroverted in conversation but subtle in action. He has a tendency toward pragmaticism when he's adventuring, but when the party gets back to the tavern he's very mellow and eager to be involved in the group. He does what he can to help others when he can afford to, and will almost always go out of his way to help a fellow halfling. He does have stipulations against breaking the law, though: He clearly isn't a master thief of the family tradition, so he shouldn't be breaking the law.

STATS
Str 13 11 Dex 16 18 Con 13 Int 13 Wis 16+2 Cha 13

RACE
Halfling

CLASS
Monk 10

SKILLS
13 ranks in Diplomacy, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot. (Conversationalist, dad wanted him to be a thief, kept an eye out for dangers.)

FEATS:
Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike) "It doesn't matter how hard you hit at your size. It matters where you hit."
Improved Unarmed Strike^B "It saves me the trouble of trying to sneak weapons around."
Stunning Fist ^B "Why does it matter where? If you drop a foe with a tap, you've won with minimal effort."
Combat Reflexes ^B "You're going to be contributing by keeping an eye out for danger. That means you always have to be aware of your surroundings."
Dodge "In the end, the important part is that you aren't being hit."
Improved Trip^B "The best way to defend the caravan is to throw the enemy off balance. In a single act, you thwart the enemy's attack and leave them prone to a counterattack."
Defensive Throw "You may not be good at skiprocks, Bren, but eventually you'll be able to throw something."
Mobility "Running is always enjoyable, and it has the added bonus that it makes you harder to hit." (Preceeds Dodge quote.)

[Rutee]

I honestly have no idea what Stormwind Fallacy is. I keep hearing "you essentially want to write fluff". My only response to that is: Was Lord of the Rings fluff? I use that particular example only because so many people are familiar with it. But you can choose any really good book of any genre. Pick a character you love or you despise and chances are you will be able to answer a lot of the questions I posted either by the writer flat out telling you, or by some level of inference. I'm not asking you to write "fluff", I'm asking you to write about a character outside the game mechanics, and then using the game mechanics to support the character instead of the other way around.

Except that doesn't prove DnD is a system written for purposes besides gamism. It's just gamism that pretends it can support a non-combat playstyle. In fact, let me stat the same character in nWoD. I'll post both the above character in both DnD and nWoD, with spoiler tags. Combat-related things will be in bold, /as complete character sheets/, skipping equipment. Mind, while I /do/ expect DnD Lin Zam to be more combat based, that's /also/ Wuxia Lin Zam, so there /is/ an in-genre expectation for it as well. But let's watch the difference, shall we?

Small Note: I'm not listing all the relevant dice pools under her specialities (Stealth, Subterfuge, etc), even though I probably should because they'd come up in play far more often then attacks..

nWoD Lin Zam

Spoiler

Show

Strength: 00
Dexterity: 0000
Stamina: 00

Int: 00
Wits: 000
Resolve: 00

Charisma: 00
Manip: 0000
Composure: 0

Abilities:
Mental:

Academics: 0
Investigation: 00
Politics: 0

Physical: 2 BP
Archery (Replacement for Firearms skill, as it's 190 CE): 0
Athletics: 000 (+1 Acrobatics)
Brawl: 0
Larceny: 00
Stealth: 000 (+1 Crowds)
Weaponry: 000

Social: 2 BP
Persuasion: 00 (+1 With cuteness)
Socialize: 00
Streetwise: 00
Subterfuge: 000

Advantages:
Defense: 3

Health: 7

Init:5

Morality: 7

Willpower: 3

Virtue: Fortitude
Vice: Pride

Merits:

Ambidextrous: 000
Two Weapon Fighting: 0
Resources: 00
Status (Wu-Wei officer): 0

Attacks:
Knife Chucks: +1L, Acc: 7.
(When actually on a mission)
Crossbow: 3L, 40/80/160, CBP: 1, Acc: 4

DnD Lin Zam

Spoiler

Show

Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

HP: 59

Class: Swordsage 10. I laugh at your restrictions!

BAB: +7/2
AC: Figuring for nakedness
Normal: 15
Flat-footed: 11
Touch: 15


Saves:
Fort: +4
Will: +8
Ref: +11

Init: +11

Skills: 117 Skillpoints
Balance: +12
Climb: +11
Bluff: +7
Disguise: +9
Forgery: +4
Gather Information: +5
Hide: +17
Jump: +11
Move Silent: +17
Tumble: +17
Sense Motive: +14
Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty: +4
Knowledge: (Local): +7

Specials:
Quick To Act: +3
AC Bonus
Evasion
Sense Magic
Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand; Weapon Focus)
Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand; Insightful Strikes)
Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand; Defensive Stance)

Attacks:
Assuming a +2 Spiked Chain to account for the Knife Chucks..
To Hit: +14, Damage: 1D10 +7 Piercing (Due to Knife Chucks)
Some sort of Crossbow:
To Hit: +11, Damage: 1d8 Piercing

Maneuvers Known:
5th Level: 4
4th Level: 4
3rd Level: 4
2nd Level: 3

STances:
1, 1, 3, 5

2nd Level
Desert Wind:
Fiery Riposte, Flashing Sun
Shadow Hand
Cloak of Deception, Drain Vitality

3rd Level:
Death Mark
Feigned Opening
Strength Draining Strike

4th Level:
Searing Charge
Attack of the Broken Shield
Obscuring Shadow Veil
Hand of Death

5th Level
Dragon's Flame
Mirrored Pursuit
Bloodletting Strike
Shadow Stride

Stances Known: 4
Flame's Blessing
Giant Killing Style
Assassin's Stance
Step of the Dancing Moth

Feats:
Shadow Blade
Deceitful
Adaptive Style
Improved Init.
Weapon Finesse (Spiked Chain)

Is DnD still not gamist, with a combat-focus?

Edit: Hm... actually, I should probably use Weapons of the Gods too, since that's /also/ got a combat-focus for conflict, and yet, still isn't as bulky.. hm..

[Dan_Hemmens]

Is DnD still not gamist, with a combat-focus?

I'd be a bit careful with the forge terminology, I'd stick to just using the term "combat focused" if I were you.

[Dan_Hemmens]

I honestly have no idea what Stormwind Fallacy is. I keep hearing "you essentially want to write fluff". My only response to that is: Was Lord of the Rings fluff? I use that particular example only because so many people are familiar with it. But you can choose any really good book of any genre. Pick a character you love or you despise and chances are you will be able to answer a lot of the questions I posted either by the writer flat out telling you, or by some level of inference. I'm not asking you to write "fluff", I'm asking you to write about a character outside the game mechanics, and then using the game mechanics to support the character instead of the other way around.

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not the biggest Lord of the Rings fan, but I'm willing to give it a go:

Aragorn, from Lord of the Rings

Favorite Color: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Food: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Sport: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Sport: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Music: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Childhood Toy: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Childhood Career Aspiration: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Best Friend - Who were they? Where are they now? What do they do for a living? What made them a best friend?: No idea, never comes up in the books.
First Crush - was it first boy/girlfriend of unrequited? Is it still going? How do they cope with your adventuring lifestyle?: No idea, never comes up in the books.
First Career - Farmhand? Smith apprentice? Librarian? (Must justify with skills): No idea, never comes up in the books.
Favorite Pre-Adventure Activity - Was it sports? Games? Hunting? Swimming, Camping? Climbing? Reading? (Be able to support with Skills): No idea, never comes up in the books.
Parents/Family - Alive? Dead? (if so how?) Their careers. Personalities (Kind, tough, Just, Fun). What are they doing today? How did they influence your personality?: No idea, never comes up in the books.
Your Personality - Outgoing? Withdrawn? Studious? Clown? Describe daily habits that justify your personality. Describe how it influences your interactions with others.: Aragorn is a mythic figure, he doesn't actually have a personality to speak of, being an archetype out of a myth cycle. He acts as a king should act, because he's a king. He's apparently in love with an elf named Arwyn, but you couldn't tell.

I get what you're trying to do here, really I do, but as I hope I've just demonstrated "pointless irrelevant detail" is not the same thing as "character". I couldn't name a single fictional character for whom I could answer more than one or two of your questions, and in most cases those answers would be to the "what about your parents" question and the answer would be "they were killed, providing me with my motivation."

Also, you're not supporting character with mechanics here, you're doing the exact opposite: by forcing people to pay for skills to represent their character's leisure activities you're making some characters *literally* impossible to represent ("I'm a half-orcish fighter, I'm not very bright, but I enjoy swimming, climbing, and playing the violin. I also learned a little Elvish from my mentor and had a bit of a troublesome childhood, so I've learned to bluff my way out of trouble. Unfortunately I only get four skill points at first level, so I am literally incapable of representing this")

[Rutee]

I'd be a bit careful with the forge terminology, I'd stick to just using the term "combat focused" if I were you.

Eh. That'd be wisest, since I don't even really refer to the GNS 'model' when I use them, merely the intentions behind the work. But then, I think people can intuit what I mean pretty well, if they're not also people who read the Forge.

[Jayabalard]

The system, however, is very clearly meant to accommodate hack n' slash and combat first, not roleplay. The rules for advancement primarily improve you as a combatant.

Rules aren't necessary or even advantageous (imo) for roleplay, so it's natural that there are more rules for combat than for roleplaying.

Coming into a thread like this and proclaiming that "you're doing it wrong" is akin to going onto the "Simple questions by RAW" thread and arguing interpretations based on rule 0.

back on topic: I'm a bit tied up today and tomorrow but I see if I can post a character some time this weekend.

[Rutee]

The only person arguing that a person's intentions were wrong has been the OP. However, the OP has also positted that DnD is not a combat-heavy numbers game. While I won't argue you /could/ do something else with it, it's still intended for use as a combat-heavy numbers game.

[Dan_Hemmens]

The only person arguing that a person's intentions were wrong has been the OP. However, the OP has also positted that DnD is not a combat-heavy numbers game. While I won't argue you /could/ do something else with it, it's still intended for use as a combat-heavy numbers game.

I don't think he's actually said that D&D isn't combat heavy (in my experience the only people who say this are people who only play D&D - get them to elaborate and they say something like "Yeah, D&D totally isn't combat heavy. My group only has, like, one or two combats a session"). He just seems to be saying that you should use mechanics to support character, rather than vice versa. I don't agree with his definition of "character" but he's hardly doomed to failure.

[Rutee]

He doesn't in the thread's first post, but does later on, like when he justifies its lack of combat-focus by stating one could give XP for non-combat encounters, etc. And no, you're not doomed to failure so much as "It's really hard."