How Do I convince my DM Duskblades aren't broken?

[Starbuck_II]

Hey, um, we started a new campaign.
We are starting level 6 ECL (so I was deciding what to play), I think 34 point Buy.

I wanted to do Duskblade. But he thinks they are broken. He joked, " Only if I played a -12 Point Buy: all stats at 6.
I was totally willing to take him up on challenge, but he said no they too broken.

By this, he means overpowered (not underpowered as broken has two contexts).

It is possible, he think they deal too much damage or maybe the casting in armor with good bab,... really I'm not sure.

Any ideas?

I'm settling for a 1/2 Dragon Warlock (because I never played either), but I'd like to get Duskblade a possibility.

[Captain Bananas]

Well, you could play a Wizard, Cleric or Druid and show him the hard way.

But seriously, he should understand that in the grand scheme of things Duskblades are far more interesting than they are overpowered. They're not incredibly powerful like the aforementioned classes for spellcasting (or melee for the Cleric and Druid), and they're not half as cheesy as anything with Lion Totem Barbarian in it for pure melee.

I think his balance meter needs an adjustment.

[Captain Bananas]

edit, because two posts are in fact not better than one.

[Kioran]

Depending on the rest of the characters, your DM is either:

- right: most players play uncheesed Melee or spellcasting
- wrong: Lion Totem barbarian, Batman and CoDzilla hold a party woth massive twinkage and you ain´t invited

The Duskblade is a rather powerful class that, without much optimization can face most non-fullcaster builds that do not contain heavy cheese. It´s not as powerful as the Beguiler (who suffers from the same problem as the druid: not the most powerful thing ever, but already obscenely powerful out of the box), but nothing to sneeze at either.

I´d think long and hard about the amount of optimization you guys use. Chances are it´s rather low, and if it is, the man might just have a point

[TheThan]

What exactly is his beef with the duskblade? Really we need to know what his argument is before we dismantle it.

Or you could just play a codzilla or Batman and show him what overpowered is.

[Kurald Galain]

While duskblades aren't really broken, they are at a somewhat higher power level than your average group of non-optimizers. Particularly at low level, a duskblade can do obscene amounts of damage by nova striking, essentially taking out big monsters in a single round.

So your DM has a point. Perhaps not the greatest of points, but a point nevertheless.

One of my DMs thinks warlocks are overpowered because they can cast their spells as often as they want. Never mind the fact that, in the average session, nobody casts more than a dozen spells ever, as that game is not big on combat.

[ChaosDefender24]

Just play a build that's actually powerful and show him that in the grand scheme of things the duskblade really isn't that powerful. It's flashy however

[Hal]

While duskblades aren't really broken, they are at a somewhat higher power level than your average group of non-optimizers. Particularly at low level, a duskblade can do obscene amounts of damage by nova striking, essentially taking out big monsters in a single round.

As I'm building a Duskblade for my own game, I'm curious what this "nova strike" is. Perhaps you could explain?

As for being broken, I would point out that Duskblades are rather fragile for a melee class. You're going to be fairly limited in AC for a while, as Medium armor is the heaviest you can wear without the spell failure chance. Plus, you can either use a two-handed weapon or spend a feat on Somatic Weaponry and carry a shield.

FWIW.

[AslanCross]

As has been mentioned earlier, it would be better to ask your DM exactly what about the Duskblade he thinks is broken. Duskblades only get their powerful nova spells at very high levels (disintegrate, polar ray). The full BAB and casting in light armor (medium at higher levels) is nothing---clerics have heavy armor and only need to cast divine power to rival that. And they get to cast all nine levels.

Given that the Duskblade has a very limited and almost purely offensive spell list, I really don't think they're broken. Better than a fighter, definitely, but nowhere as powerful as a cleric.

As I'm building a Duskblade for my own game, I'm curious what this "nova strike" is. Perhaps you could explain?

A nova strike is expending your resources (in this case, spells) faster than the "ideal" (1/4 of spells consumed per encounter) in order to swiftly and violently dispatch your enemy. Duskblades can do this very well by using their buffs (the crown spells, for example, are nova buffs since you dismiss them to gain a big bonus for one round) and combining those with channeling a powerful touch spell.

[Fax Celestis]

As I'm building a Duskblade for my own game, I'm curious what this "nova strike" is. Perhaps you could explain?

"Nova-ing" is burning as many resources as you can in as short a span of time as possible without care for what happens later. Duskblades usually do it by quick-casting a spell modified by Smiting Spell, channeling another spell, burning one or two more into Arcane Strike, and charging.

[Squash Monster]

Grab the Duskblade spell list and go through it with him level by level. At each level, compare it to the following list of Core Wizard spells:
1 - Grease, Color Spray, Sleep
2 - Web, Glitterdust, Alter Self (Troglodyte)
3 - Stinking Cloud, Displacement, Haste
4 - Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Polymorph
5 - Cloudkill, Teleport, Wall of Force

Then point out that wizards get all spell levels except level 1 earlier than Duskblades get their spells.

Explain to him that, although Duskblades get a whole bunch of stuff other than casting, they get nothing that even comes close to a Wizard's ability to effectively end a fight in his favor in the course of a single spell.


If that doesn't convince him, see if he'll let you play the following build (or however far along it you are):
Fighter 2 / Wizard 5 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 7
You get roughly the same thing as Duskblade, minus the nifty channeling ability, plus a few dozen times more power.


And finally, if that seems cheesy to him, play a Cleric. You're looking for the spells Divine Power and Righteous Might, and make sure to get the Travel domain. Buy a wand of cure light wounds so your party doesn't harass you to waste spells on curing. If that doesn't float your boat, Druid is even scarier.

[Lolth]

In my experience, Duskblades are not overpowered but they can seem so, especially depending on circumstances.

They are excellent thwackers, of course, but they can't keep it up indefinitely. If your DM is the 1-2 fights a day sort, they generally make it through at the levels you're discussing.

Closer to "standard" encounter frequency, and you'll trade off on your fun by gasping for breath (spells) eventually.

Another issue is that Levels 5-7 are pretty much the Duskblade's "sweet spot." It doesn't get any better for them, comparatively. If he's only seen that, and not one at higher levels where the new goodies they get are progressively less impressive, compared to many other classes', I can see why your DM might fear them, or have an inaccurate (IMO) idea of their power.

[valadil]

How Do I convince my DM Duskblades aren't broken?

You lie to him.

Actually I'm not entirely convinced that they're all that broken. I'd have to see one in action before deciding for sure. For some odd reason all my DMs have banned them though, so I haven't gotten to see one in action.

Anyway they get two good saves and full BAB. They get some spells on top of that. Usually split classes get more stuff to do, but can only do one thing per turn. A gish can usually be a caster or be a tank, but not both in the same turn. Duskblades get to cast touch spells and channel them during their full attack. That particular ability is where my DMs take issue with duskblade and end up banning the class.

[krossbow]

I once made a radiant servant of Pelor in a undead focused campaign when my DM barred my Dual wand wielding bard.


Good times, good times... I make enemies go boom!

[mabriss lethe]

You could play a hexblade instead. They don't seem quite so impressive as a Duskblade, but they can wreak havoc with the proper selection of spells and feats.

They don't have quite as many goodies as the duskblade does, but the toys they do have are truly nasty. Take a look at spells like Hound of Doom, whirling blade and cursed blade.

Just don't try to tank with one...

[Miles Invictus]

Sorcerers and Wizards get access to every spell the Duskblade gets access to, can cast higher level spells that are harder to defend against, and have no dependency on Strength. Fighters and Barbarians have better hit die and no dependency on Intelligence -- they will always have more hit points, a higher attack bonus, and consistently higher damage.

You might also try showing him some of the cheese he actually allows. I don't mean "ruin his campaign by rolling up a crazy Wizard/Cleric/Druid", but point out some of the things he does allow, and explain how absurdly powerful those things are when used by a savvy player.

That said, the duskblade is very powerful at low levels. They've got access to some of the wizard's cheesier spells (sleep, color spray), and they've got a melee presence only slightly behind the fighter. I'm playing a duskblade in one of the Pathfinder modules and won two major battles by color spraying bosses after they KO'd a party member. In an unoptimized party, the duskblade will be very strong.

[Kurald Galain]

If that doesn't convince him, see if he'll let you play the following build (or however far along it you are):
Fighter 2 / Wizard 5 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 7

The problem is that, unlike the duskblade, that build doesn't do all that much at low levels.

Whereas a duskblade can nova strike at low levels by comboing, say, Shocking Grasp + Blade of Blood + Power Attack for something like +6d6 damage, and that's only because Arcane Strike has higher prereqs.

[Frosty]

duskblade is a great damage dealer at low levels. but then, so is a barbarian.

[Starbuck_II]

In my experience, Duskblades are not overpowered but they can seem so, especially depending on circumstances.

They are excellent thwackers, of course, but they can't keep it up indefinitely. If your DM is the 1-2 fights a day sort, they generally make it through at the levels you're discussing.

Closer to "standard" encounter frequency, and you'll trade off on your fun by gasping for breath (spells) eventually.

Yeah, my DM usually only has 2 fights/day. I've seen multiple once (that was 5). 3 can happen, but the average is 2.

Another issue is that Levels 5-7 are pretty much the Duskblade's "sweet spot." It doesn't get any better for them, comparatively. If he's only seen that, and not one at higher levels where the new goodies they get are progressively less impressive, compared to many other classes', I can see why your DM might fear them, or have an inaccurate (IMO) idea of their power.

Yeah, he played one in a low campaign (with a person I knew): Low money so casters ruled. And he was level 5, so he was at sweet spot.

You might also try showing him some of the cheese he actually allows. I don't mean "ruin his campaign by rolling up a crazy Wizard/Cleric/Druid", but point out some of the things he does allow, and explain how absurdly powerful those things are when used by a savvy player.

Last campaign before stopped, party:
Wizard X/IoSV X
Wu Jen 7/Fatespinner 4/ Loremaster 1(was me)
Dragon Shaman 13
Beguiler 10/Mindbender (one that has telepathy) 2, I think that was build
CW Samurai X/Ronin X
Fighter X/Tempest
Scout X/Dervish X
Favored Soul 6 (she dropped out though due to school)
Fighter/Dwarven Defender
Druid (with PHB shifter exchange for wildshape), he dropped though due to school

New campaign:
My dude
a 1/2 Celestial Fighter 2
human Rogue 6
a 1/2 Elf Warmage 6: (note DM let him trade elven skill stuff for a feat)
Halfing Cleric
Human Cleric of Pelor

Soon to be joining:
Druid/MoMF (he won't be able to join right away due to school stuff)

We are having a few sessions at level 6, than we are playing 15 years later when level 15 (more or less). He hasn't explained what exactly he means.

[Yami]

My suggestion would be to play a cleric, and grab the magic domain. Then use Any-Spell to turn your divine spells into lower leveled arcane ones. Not the most optimal work around, and you'll be tempted with persist spell and DMM cheese, which can be devastating with such spells as swift fly and wraith strike.

But as long as you stay off the cheese, your cleric should function like a duskblade.

[Saph]

I've had the same problem. I played my by-the-book Duskblade in a 5th-level one-off, and the the DM was shocked (no pun intended) by the nova strikes.

Quick-cast True Strike + Full Power Attack + Arcane Channelled Shocking Grasp + normal weapon damage gave an average hit of 35-40 points of damage or so. It looks impressive . . . if you don't take into account that the Duskblade can only do it once per day, while the raging Barbarian can only do half that much, but can do it over and over again.

Unfortunately, once a DM decides that something's overpowered, it's quite hard to shake the belief. It usually takes a while.

Duskblades at level 15 aren't overpowered at all - multiclass gishes are a good bit stronger by then, due to the Duskblade's weak spell progression.

- Saph

[Starbuck_II]

I've had the same problem. I played my by-the-book Duskblade in a 5th-level one-off, and the the DM was shocked (no pun intended) by the nova strikes.

Quick-cast True Strike + Full Power Attack + Arcane Channelled Shocking Grasp + normal weapon damage gave an average hit of 35-40 points of damage or so. It looks impressive . . . if you don't take into account that the Duskblade can only do it once per day, while the raging Barbarian can only do half that much, but can do it over and over again.

Unfortunately, once a DM decides that something's overpowered, it's quite hard to shake the belief. It usually takes a while.

I was afraid of that.

Worst, he would even ban it if I accepted all 8's across the board. Unless, I boosted my stats by level/magic items, I couldn't even cast spells.

He still thought it too strong.

Duskblades at level 15 aren't overpowered at all - multiclass gishes are a good bit stronger by then, due to the Duskblade's weak spell progression.

- Saph

I'd assume so, but what ya going to do...

Well, I'll try to find out if the Nova/damage is main issue.
For now I'll try Warlock. At level 15, Chilling Tentacles and all those battle field control spells will be cool.

[Wraith]

How Do I convince my DM Duskblades aren't broken?

Just play a build that's actually powerful and show him that in the grand scheme of things the duskblade really isn't that powerful. It's flashy however

Seconded.

For this purpose, I recommend playing as a 5 Druid/X Planar Shepherd (Faiths of Eberron) of either Dal Quor the Plane of Dreams, Syrania the Plane of Good or Xoriat the Plane of Madness for a couple of weeks, and then ask for your Duskblade back.

He'll be grateful.

Seriously, no sensible GM in the world would prefer you to legally be able to shapechange into a Titan and use Meteor Swarm/Firestorm/Chain Lightning at will, or into an Efreeti and use Wish at will, or into a Solar and cast as a level 20 Cleric AS WELL as full Druid progression, compared to a mere Full BAB and a few Arcane spells.

[Aquillion]

It´s not as powerful as the Beguiler (who suffers from the same problem as the druid: not the most powerful thing ever, but already obscenely powerful out of the box), but nothing to sneeze at either.

The beguiler isn't really as powerful as the druid. While good at what it does, it has clear weaknesses... one of the problems with druids is, well, what are they bad at?

[kamikasei]

Worst, he would even ban it if I accepted all 8's across the board. Unless, I boosted my stats by level/magic items, I couldn't even cast spells.

He still thought it too strong.

That seems completely unsupportable. What is it he's afraid you'll do, hit things with your swords?

[Person_Man]

It's almost impossible to break a game by building a powerful PC. The DM can always just throw more powerful enemies at you.

The only real way to break a game is to build a PC that's relatively much more powerful then the other PCs. Even then, if a weak PC has an interesting niche which other PCs ignore (party face, scout, meat shield, etc) you can still have a very fun game.

Duskblades excel at one thing. Hitting stuff in melee combat. In D&D, that generally ranks below battlefield control and Save or Lose builds. And it almost entirely ignores useful Skills. So even if they were very powerful (which they're not), it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Another option is that you could build a virtual Duskblade. An Enlightened Fist or an Arcane Fist can do similar things. Or you could just buy spell storing weapons (or take 2 levels of Kensai).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I never really understood how "going nova" was something to get all that concerned about. Are there really that many campaigns out there that are built on only one combat encounter that can easily be overcome with a nova per day?

Yeah, going nova is a powerful option that can make a number of BBEG fights difficult. But I don't think it's that hard to overcome, especially when the DM knows that a character is capable of going nova.

[Yakk]

The character's nova burst can be a problem, in that it means you have to coordinate "which fights to you go nova on".

As the power of the character varies wildly from one fight to the next, it is harder to push the "these fights are scary, but not deadly" edge-of-the-curve at the players.

Either the DM has to rapidly retailor every fight to take into account the current resources of the party, or the player has to rapidly figure out how "nova" they should go in each and every fight. If the DM misses or the Player misses, you end up with a yawn-fest or a TPK.

Ie: even barring player power, "nova" classes are a problem.

[Squash Monster]

I don't particularly understand the problem with the whole nova issue either. In my campaign, for a long time half the players were Swordsages. Every last one of them could unleash hell once per combat. Eventually I just decided that if I wanted to really challenge them, I'd have to send pairs of big scary monsters at them, so they could obliterate the first in one round and the second could cause lots of damage while they try to regroup. And that worked quite well.

[Ganurath]

He won't let you play a Duskblade for reasoning we don't have. I suggest conceding the point, and fill a relatively empty roll in your party by playing a Batman Wizard.