Most balanced base classes in all of 3.5 (not just core)?

[Frosty]

We always get lots of complaints about classes either being underpowered or overpowered, and I think everyone is by now familiar with the CW Samurai, Truenamer, Monk, Omnificer, CoDzilla, Batman, etc. But what about the classes that are balanced? Those that all other classes should learn from in terms of design standpoint because they're useful, yet still have their blind spots and weaknesses, and there is a reason to take all 20 levels in that class. In your opinion, what are the 3 most balanced base classes in DnD 3.5?

Mine are:

1) Warblade
2) Duskblade
3) Beguiler

I would've mentioned Rogue, except there is absolutely no reason to take Rogue level 20. They have the worse Capstone ability evah.

[Solo]

Rogue, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Barbarian, and Bard.

[_Puppetmaster_]

mine are:

1: Binder
2: Spellthief
3: Scout

[Overlard]

1) Rogue
2) Duskblade
3) Beguiler

[Kurald Galain]

Rogue, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Barbarian, and Bard.

Sounds reasonable. How about Ranger, too?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Add psychic warrior to the mix. And the soulborn.

[Fax Celestis]

Totemist, Spellthief, Ardent.

[Frosty]

I said 3, not 5

And go ahead and put your reasoning for 1 or even all 3 of your picks. I liked Warblade because they're warriors who never run out of interesting things to do. They don't have wizard-level power, but they can do more than just "I hit it" "I charge it" "I trip it" or "I fire an arrow at it"

[Fax Celestis]

Totemist has versatility within limits, sort of what wild shape was supposed to be like. Spellthief can be powerful but relies on taking that power from others first, which puts them in a very precarious position before they actually do any thievery. Ardent puts limits on the powers one has available but still allows for one to have both variety and versatility.

[Draz74]

Here's another vote for Binder, Psychic Warrior, and Knight.

(Edited)

[Chronos]

I honestly can't agree at all with Spellthief or Beguiler being balanced, since they both basically make the Rogue redundant. The rogue is already balanced; taking a rogue and giving it magical abilities in addition breaks it.

Another candidate for balance might be the Warlock. Sure, it's not as powerful as the true casters, but that's not a bad thing. And the unlimited-use magic gives it its own niche to fill. The UMD scroll thing might be a bit much, though.

And Barbarian might not be quite the most optimized melee class, but it has the enormous advantage that it's pretty decent, right off the shelf. The game needs a class like the barbarian, that you can just hand to a complete newbie, and he won't really be able to screw it up. You can give a fighter the wrong feats, and you can give a Warblade the wrong maneuvers, but with a barbarian, as long as you pick up Power Attack, you're good.

[KIDS]

Favored Soul, Factotum, Spirit Shaman, Psion, Artificer, Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, Dusbkblade, Beguiler, Sorcerer

This is from a power point of view; it does not take into account poor game design, blandness, lack of choices or etc.

Hm, ok, most 3:

1. Psion
2. Crusader
3. Beguiler

[Jack_Simth]

We always get lots of complaints about classes either being underpowered or overpowered, and I think everyone is by now familiar with the CW Samurai, Truenamer, Monk, Omnificer, CoDzilla, Batman, etc. But what about the classes that are balanced? Those that all other classes should learn from in terms of design standpoint because they're useful, yet still have their blind spots and weaknesses, and there is a reason to take all 20 levels in that class. In your opinion, what are the 3 most balanced base classes in DnD 3.5?

Balance is in relation to the other classes. There is no "most balanced" class for the simple reason that if all classes target the exact same power level (and hit the target) they will all be balanced, regardless of where that target is placed.

The most balanced three classes, therefore, are any set of X, Y, and Z, where the relative power of X = the relative power of Y = the relative power of Z.

[Bauglir]

Right. So which of the classes in 3.5 is most balanced compared to other classes and the sorts of encounters one would be facing at that level? No reason to shoot down the question unnecessarily. Especially when your logical flaw is nonexistent, what with all classes being NOT balanced with one another.

Also, on topic, I'd say Psychic Warrior, Warlock, and Rogue. Psychic Warrior gives you ever-important options in battle through manifesting and feats, but you still pay with your lower Base Attack Bonus and Hit Die for a melee class, forcing you to use some of those options to cover up your weaknesses, but at the same time leaving you a very effective combatant. Warlocks get all the magic fluff of Sorcerers, only moreso, and also have a nice mechanic to go along with them; useful effects usable at will without breaking the game. Rogues get to fill the role of skill-monkey, but they have a role in combat, which means they don't feel useless half or more of the time. And it's a tactical role, too, which also allows for something more interesting to do than just charge and full attack.

[Saph]

My picks for 'most balanced':

• Ranger
• Duskblade
• Psychic Warrior

All can contribute at every level, to some degree, but never become either useless or godly. (It's not a coincidence that they're all half- or three-quarter casters.) Rogue is iffy because so many creatures are immune to sneak attacks.

There is no WAY Crusaders or Beguilers make the list. Crusaders are outrageously powerful tanks, virtually unkillable in a toe-to-toe, and Beguilers are primary spellcasters who count among their spells known some of the most powerful spells in the game (colour spray, haste, greater mirror image, dominate monster, time stop).

- Saph

[Everyman]

Hmmm...granted, I don't have every supplement ever printed, but I'd list the top three as follows (in no paticular order):

1) Ranger
2) Spirit Shaman
3) Duskblade

Rangers seem to have a balance between skills and fighting ability. A ranger's lower HD makes him a bit more fragile than, say, a fighter or barbarian. However, their favored enemy bonuses, good saves, skill points, a modest supply of minor magics help make them very versatile warriors.

Spirit shamans are precisely how I wish all casters were built. Two (2) necessary ability scores (Charisma and Wisdom), a spont. caster who can switch out spells known each day, and with class abilities that are unique and useful.

Finally, the duskblade...the only gish class that seems to work. Excellent battle skills, but balanced out by a moderate HD (see ranger). Enough magic for it to make a difference, but not enough to overshadow a full caster. They are able to fill a variety of roles, but their spont. casting means that one doesn't have to worry about them quickening spells and striking with a sword all in the same round.

[Frosty]

Since when do Beguilers know Otto's Irresistable Dance? And yes, they've got a decent spell list. They also only target Will saves. Unlike Batman, there is a *lot* of things a Beguiler can't do. I also wouldn't call Haste one of the best spells. It's good, but hardly game breaking.

[Nebo_]

Favored Soul, Factotum, Spirit Shaman, Psion, Artificer, Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, Dusbkblade, Beguiler, Sorcerer

Almost everyone of those is considered to be one of the most powerful classes in the game. How do you justify an artificer being balanced?

My list has the Psychic Warrior, Barbarian and Rogue.

[Frosty]

Later on I will try to compile a running tally of how many votes for each class. Thoe of you who picked more than 3 classes, edit your posts down to 3 or I'll just randomly take 3 from the list or discount the votes for now.

[Cuddly]

I don't think ranger is that great, since it's key class features are largely bad. TWF is weak, favored enemy is too conditional, and the animal companion is a patsy.

[tyckspoon]

Finally, the duskblade...the only gish class that seems to work. Excellent battle skills, but balanced out by a moderate HD (see ranger). Enough magic for it to make a difference, but not enough to overshadow a full caster. They are able to fill a variety of roles, but their spont. casting means that one doesn't have to worry about them quickening spells and striking with a sword all in the same round.

That's exactly what Duskblades do! It's the point of the class in combat! It's not broken thanks to the tight focus of the Duskblade spell list, but really.

[Saph]

Since when do Beguilers know Otto's Irresistable Dance? And yes, they've got a decent spell list. They also only target Will saves. Unlike Batman, there is a *lot* of things a Beguiler can't do. I also wouldn't call Haste one of the best spells. It's good, but hardly game breaking.

Whoops, didn't mean to put irresistable dance in there. Corrected.

Anyway . . . I'll happily take a beguiler over almost any other class in D&D. They have more than a 'decent' spell list, they have an awesome spell list. A Beguiler will easily outperform a Sorcerer at low levels, and can match them at mid levels. If you're going to say Beguilers are balanced, then 75% of the classes in the game are going to be underpowered by comparison.

- Saph

[Solo]

I said 3, not 5

"And five is right out."

[Sornas]

My personal picks ^_^ Just my opinion, really.
1. Spellthieves
2. Warlocks
3. Bards

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) Warlock
2) Spirit Shaman
3) Hexblade


Warlock is a decent damage-dealer if you consider him a warrior, not a caster and has some pretty cool but not overpowered abilities. He's pretty weak offencively but makes up with some control and defence.
Spirit Shaman has limited spells known out of the more balanced full caster spell list in the game (druid) without the overpowering shapeshifting powers of druids.
Hexblade is a warrior that doesn't get owned by save-or-die, save-or-suck and has some tricks up his sleeves. He's also weak offencively though.

[KoDT69]

1 - Bard
2 - Warlock
3 - Rogue

[Crow]

Since everybody's view of what is balanced or not will vary, I'm just going to put in three classes that have never broken my game, but at the same time were never useless. (We only use core, plus the players can use a few selected books...but the DM only uses core)

1. Rogue
2. Barbarian
3. Warlock

I'm going to have to throw in a negative vote for Warblade (or any of the ToB classes). They were designed to close the gap between martial characters and the most powerful classes in the game (full casters). They don't tend to play well with other martial classes from outside that book. The barbarian, a relatively balanced martial character, pales in comparison to ToB classes.

I AM NOT SAYING WARBLADES ARE OVERPOWERED...before you guys jump on that. Just that I wouldn't put them up as "most balanced".

[Squash Monster]

The idea of "most balanced" in this context doesn't mean a thing. Balance is in relation to other classes. Jack Simth explained it better than I will.

So instead, here's a list of 8 largely internally balanced classes I made for something else (you can skip the last two if you don't like modified classes):
1) Fighter (with good feat selection)
2) Crusader
3) Swordsage
4) Rogue
5) Warlock
6) Bard
7) Favored Soul (plus two domains, spell level progression slowed down to bard speed)
8) Druid (shapeshift variant, spell level progression slowed down to bard speed)

[TheOOB]

"balanced" is a difficult question. We all know batman and CoDzilla is unbalanced for being way too powerful, and we know rogues and fighters are way to weak when compared to anyone else. And of course, simply by saying that I have half the board disagreeing with me.

Anyways, I've never been one to keep my 2c to myself so here is my list of best "designed" base classes. My criteria are a) they must have a clear party role, b) they must be viable from level 1 to 20 c) they must multiclass well, both as a major class (half to a majority of your levels) and a dip d) they must gain benefit from a PrC but still stand to lose something of importance, and e) they be able to be a good member in a 4 person party without overshadowing their other members.

The classes I find that best fit this criteria are(in no particular order) warblade, swordsage, crusader, duskblade, and beguiler. Note that they are all some of the more recentally created DnD classes, that gives me some hope for 4e :).

[Emperor Tippy]

Whoops, didn't mean to put irresistable dance in there. Corrected.

Anyway . . . I'll happily take a beguiler over almost any other class in D&D. They have more than a 'decent' spell list, they have an awesome spell list. A Beguiler will easily outperform a Sorcerer at low levels, and can match them at mid levels. If you're going to say Beguilers are balanced, then 75% of the classes in the game are going to be underpowered by comparison.

- Saph

I would say closer to 80% are underpowered. About 10% are overpowered. The other 10% are pretty balanced.

The only really "balanced" (as in at the right power level for the monsters and not dependent on party configuration to keep it worthwhile) classe in core is the Bard and possibly the Ranger. The Cleric and Wizard are broken. The rest are either far from being versatile enough or just flat out to weak for the monsters/challenges the face unless you go far out of your way to make them useful. Balance is based on average builds, not what you can do with every splatbook and a good powergamer. Yes you can make a playable fighter but the average fighter is far too weak.

Outside of core the Psychic Warrior is pretty balanced. The Psion is right on the cusp of being overpowered.

The Warlock is balanced. ToB is balanced, at the high end of balanced but balanced none the less.