Can a level 20 wizard kill

[Setra]

Bahamut? Out of curiosity I did a search for Platinum Dragon on a D&D Wiki and found the stats for Bahamut.

Now this is probably silly but.. basically.

Can you come up with ways to feasibly, without resorting to things that are beyond normal cheese (ie. Infinite Gating)

Bahamut

[Penguinizer]

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold researches an epic spell to make it stop from existing. No idea if this even would work.

Humm, no idea beyond that actually.

[RTGoodman]

Well, it's immune to ability drain, but not specifically to ability damage, so there's gotta be some way to take advantage of that (especially with his mighty draconic Dex of 10).

Unless immune to ability drain covers all types of ability damage and penalties, in which case I don't know.

[Keld Denar]

lol....Bahamut, the platnum father of all metalic dragons slain by a 3rd level spell....lol....

[Zincorium]

Honestly, I don't regard whether a level 20 wizard can kill it as a meaningful question.

It's CR 107. You'd have to be level 100 before you can even calculate how much experience you'd gain from killing this particular dragon-god.

Really, at level 20 you'd have to resort to killing it with anti-osmium.

[Reinboom]

First steps:
Find a way to surpass the spell resistance (134)

The saves:
Fort +92, Ref +72, Will +100

Hitting it:
Touch 31 (this isn't so bad...)

The Immunities:
Death from massive damage, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, cold;
...
The speed (480 ft, 1440 ft fly speed)
...
Then the Epic Spellcasting and a cleric level of 46...

Get those scaly kind Wizards with a few domination effects and sarrukh out!

[sikyon]

Diplomacy.

[Ganurath]

1. Go to a different plane of existence than Bahamut.
2. Cast Sculpted Wall of Iron in an open, flat area.
3. Cast Reverse Gravity in said area.
4. Set up a Contingency of a Gate opening in your proximity to greater dispel magic the nearest Reverse Gravity spell.
5. Open a Gate over Bahamut on the ground beneath the Iron Pillar, use scrying as needed.
6. Weight Damage + Falling Damage = Deicide.

[RTGoodman]

One other problem is this:

Epic — contingent resurrection

Also, he has contingent resurrection 1/day as a spell-like ability. So, once he's dead, you'd better find a way to prevent that from happening.

[Talic]

Step 1: Hire the War Hulk Hulking hurler from the wizards boards that throws rocks for about 1 trillion damage.

Step 2: Hire his friend.

Step 3: Gate them both to bahamut.

Step 4: Bahamut ices one with a vengeful gaze.

Step 5: Throw the rock with the Hurler ability that allows a save for half. Bahamut doesn't have Evasion.

Step 6: Bahamut becomes a splatter on the wall. to the tune of 500,000,000,000 damage.

[Ganurath]

One other problem is this:



Also, he has contingent resurrection 1/day as a spell-like ability. So, once he's dead, you'd better find a way to prevent that from happening.

Oh! In that case, cast Magic Aura on a Trap the Soul gem especially made for Bahamut. Any decent Knowledge (religion) check would provide sufficient data to set it to irresistable mode. All that you need is getting a gem big and expensive enough to be worth offering to a deity in person.

[Chronos]

lol....Bahamut, the platnum father of all metalic dragons slain by a 3rd level spell....lol....

I don't think that the standard dragonkiller spell will work here, since I'm reasonably certain that Bahamut has the cold subtype. Plus, Shivering Cheese still allows spell resistance, and 134 is an awful lot to try to Assay away.

The Dex does still look tempting, but the other obvious way to do dex damage is with poison, and he's outright immune to that... Hm, maybe some sort of maneuver or class feature or whatnot (similar to a rogue's Crippling Strike) that deals dex damage on a hit?

Even at that, though, reducing him to 0 dex wouldn't be enough. As a 46th-level cleric (and probably a good many sorcerer levels, too), he probably has more still, silent spells than you have spells, total. So rendering him unable to move (even if you manage it somehow) will still leave him kicking your butt.

[Douglas]

A Dweomercheater, excuse me, Dweomerkeeper could use Supernatural Spell to ignore the SR four times per day. That, plus the low touch AC and lack of immunity to ability damage, would allow Shivering Touch to work. Drop his dexterity to 0 in one hit, then Coup de Grace at leisure.

Of course, this still leaves the problem of how to survive getting close enough to use Shivering Touch in the first place.

Edit: According to the stats in the link given, he does not have the cold subtype. As for Still Silent spells, he doesn't even have those feats at all.

[Ganurath]

Of course, this still leaves the problem of how to survive getting close enough to use Shivering Touch in the first place.

Bluff, bluff, bluff, bluff the god of dragons with cold immunity!

[Douglas]

Good luck beating his +154 Sense Motive check.

[RTGoodman]

I don't think that the standard dragonkiller spell will work here, since I'm reasonably certain that Bahamut has the cold subtype. Plus, Shivering Cheese still allows spell resistance, and 134 is an awful lot to try to Assay away.

Well, it's easy to change the energy descriptor of a spell. I don't know if shivering touch actually does cold damage, but either way the Energy Substitution feat only requires that the spell have the descriptor. So just give it one of the other energy descriptors.

The spell resistance is a problem, but there are probably ways around it, I think. The description of SR says that "The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks." Does that mean a natural 20 on the CL check means an automatic success. If so, you could either hope for that or find a way to get a natural 20 automatically (Surge of Fortune, maybe? I can't remember if it can be used for CL checks).

[Ganurath]

Well, it's easy to change the energy descriptor of a spell. I don't know if shivering touch actually does cold damage, but either way the Energy Substitution feat only requires that the spell have the descriptor. So just give it one of the other energy descriptors.

The spell resistance is a problem, but there are probably ways around it, I think. The description of SR says that "The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks." Does that mean a natural 20 on the CL check means an automatic success. If so, you could either hope for that or find a way to get a natural 20 automatically (Surge of Fortune, maybe? I can't remember if it can be used for CL checks).

An easier way is to cast this, disguise it with Magic Aura, and explain to Bahamut that you wish for him to hold it so that it can be an icon of worship, a gemstone blessed by the presence of Bahamut. No need for a Bluff check if it isn't technically a lie, right?

[Zona]

An easier way is to cast this, disguise it with Magic Aura, and explain to Bahamut that you wish for him to hold it so that it can be an icon of worship, a gemstone blessed by the presence of Bahamut. No need for a Bluff check if it isn't technically a lie, right?

You Aes Sedai You.

[RTGoodman]

An easier way is to cast this, disguise it with Magic Aura, and explain to Bahamut that you wish for him to hold it so that it can be an icon of worship, a gemstone blessed by the presence of Bahamut. No need for a Bluff check if it isn't technically a lie, right?

An even better solution - cast the spell, have the gem, and all of that, cast magic aura to disguise it, and then trick an innocent worshiper into giving it to Bahamut. The way trap the soul sound to me, the gem is set for a specific person/deity, so you can pass it around as much as you like and it won't do anything until it gets to the target.

If the worshiper doesn't know about the gem's insidious purpose, I doubt the god would be able to use Sense Motive to figure out the gem's purpose. Of course, he might just cast a targetted dispel on it anyway before picking it up, so it might not work.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Using an incantatrix, sudden quicken, twin spell and a two rods of greater maximise it is possible, with Timestop and a twinned celerity twinned contingency (twin contingency whose each portion contains a twinned celerity), to get a grand total of 35 rounds of Timestop in a single round.

Now you have 35 rounds to employ any trick/massive spell combo that can defeat him.

[kemmotar]

Actually, just a note on all the 2 gate "tricks" above..bahamut is a god, all gods have the ability to reject teleportation, gates and divination spells it they want...so you have a problem right there...also if you mention his name he can see you and all the other nifty abilities gods have...

So my guess is go with the timestop thingy from far far away...use some kind of insane flight speed to get near him and then hope you have enough rounds to do the amazing spell combo you have planned...then hope you can get another 35 round timestop before his contingent res(both of them) makes him able to act again and procceed to kick your ass...

Bahamut casting a spell=death
Bahamut hitting you=death
Bahamut looking at you=probably death too...
Bahamut has an action=death

So the only way to actually beat him is to find a way to do something to him before he can hit you, and even if you do kill him to kill him again right after his 2 resurrections...so short of pupun you'll need equal cheese to get him...albeit more creative than usual...since you need to kill him 3 times before he can take any action against you...

And, in the case of you dealing enough dex damage, after by passing his SR, his touch AC(not very difficult anyway) and him not making his save...you still have to worry about a maximized, quickened, still, silent, heightened disintigrate with a save high in the hundreds...and that is the good scenario...

Maybe a party of 5 level 20 wizards working cheese together?

[Ganurath]

...An Elan Mystic Theurge using Persistant DMM cheese on Time Stop. Rest up your spells during the Time Stop, spend a power point to make food nonissue, do that trick with double Surge of Fortune for an instant decapitation with a +1 Unholy Vorpal Longsword, then let the cycle repeat after the next Time Stop.

[Weiser_Cain]

Being a god, wouldn't he know about the attack before you made it or something?
How would your magic even touch him at lvl 20?

[Collin152]

Can a level 20 wizard kill

Yes, and how!

[bugsysservant]

...An Elan Mystic Theurge using Persistant DMM cheese on Time Stop. Rest up your spells during the Time Stop, spend a power point to make food nonissue, do that trick with double Surge of Fortune for an instant decapitation with a +1 Unholy Vorpal Longsword, then let the cycle repeat after the next Time Stop.

The Persistent DMM time stop doesn't work. WoTC did a stealth errata with the FAQ making Time Stop essentially treated like a spell with instantaneous duration.

Edit: If anyone can think of a way of getting him to fail a fortitude save, using the time stop trick mentioned above and casting Flesh to Stone then Transmute Rock to Mud bypasses his contingency resurrections, IIRC. But again, +92 Fort save makes this ineffective without some way of lowering it.

[Rutee]

An easier way is to cast this, disguise it with Magic Aura, and explain to Bahamut that you wish for him to hold it so that it can be an icon of worship, a gemstone blessed by the presence of Bahamut. No need for a Bluff check if it isn't technically a lie, right?

Wrong. It's nto a lie, but it's still a con, and still calls for a Bluff Check.

[Collin152]

Wrong. It's nto a lie, but it's still a con, and still calls for a Bluff Check.

So bluff a worshipor into doing it. They don't know it's a con.
Course, maybe Epic Sense motive lets him do more.

[Rutee]

You have to bluff a worshipper who can reasonably access Bahamut. Which means a Cleric, in all probability..

[Citizen Jenkins]

Well, the way I see it, there are really four big obstacles to overcome before you can kill the Platinum Dragon.

1. Getting close enough for any magical attack.

2. Getting past SR.

3. Getting past it's insane saves.

4. Dealing with the contingent resurrection.

My entry is a,
Necropolitan Wizard 4/Cleric 1/Dweomekeeper 4/Tainted Scholar 1/Incantatrix 10

1. I use Belial_the_Leveler's time stop trick to get close enough. Mix in Celerity/Greater Celerity and getting a spell off won't be a problem.

2. 4 levels of Dweomekeeper ala what douglas suggested allows me to use Supernatural spell once to ignore it's SR.

3. Since I'm undead, my Tainted Scholar can rack up a silly Corruption score without penalty, so my save DCs can be in the 200-300 range easily.

4. This is where we get creative. I'm partial to the Magic Jar jar followed by using a Silent Flare using the soul as a spell component trick from BOVD but I'm sure there are other ways. Most of you will probably want to snag bugsysservant's Flesh to Stone then Transmute Rock to Mud trick.

[bugsysservant]

Course, maybe Epic Sense motive lets him do more.

I don't think so. The most Epic Sense motive will get you according to the SRD is the ability to detect alignment and thoughts. Maybe he could detect thoughts, and tell from the way that the worshiper was thinking of you that you were up to something, but considering its only surface thoughts, that would be a stretch.