Halfling's sling

[The John]

So a halfling doesn't have racial weapon familiarity or proficiency for the mighty sling... but he does get a bonus for using one cause halflings like throwing stones and using slings straight from the time their arms grow out from those shoulders of theirs.

Most classes do get proficiency with the sling, but then the psion doesn't. I don't know about you but I think that needs some mending.

[Starbuck_II]

So a halfling doesn't have racial weapon familiarity or proficiency for the mighty sling... but he does get a bonus for using one cause halflings like throwing stones and using slings straight from the time their arms grow out from those shoulders of theirs.

Most classes do get proficiency with the sling, but then the psion doesn't. I don't know about you but I think that needs some mending.

Neither does the Wizard. The Psion is similar in theme to the Wizard which is why get same proficiencies.

I do think Halfings should have simple weapon: sling proficiency no matter the class; as I doubt that is a power boost. But they aren't written as such.

[Spiryt]

So a halfling doesn't have racial weapon familiarity or proficiency for the mighty sling... but he does get a bonus for using one cause halflings like throwing stones and using slings straight from the time their arms grow out from those shoulders of theirs.

Fot me it's perfectly logical - halflings have natural knack on hurling stuff into the air, but that doesn't change the fact that halfling's tailor won't have any idea how to use sling.

Still would be better in it than human tailor, but that doesn't mean "good at it".

[TempusCCK]

So, in your games give all halfling the proficiency.

[Newtkeeper]

Fot me it's perfectly logical - halflings have natural knack on hurling stuff into the air, but that doesn't change the fact that halfling's tailor won't have any idea how to use sling.

Still would be better in it than human tailor, but that doesn't mean "good at it".

Quoted for truth. All the talent in the world won't help you without training. For you computer geeks out there, think of it as hardware vs. software. Sure, my computer has tons of RAM, but it won't do much until I install an OS.

[mostlyharmful]

Quoted for truth. All the talent in the world won't help you without training. For you computer geeks out there, think of it as hardware vs. software. Sure, my computer has tons of RAM, but it won't do much until I install an OS.

yet their entry says halflings play around with slings all the time while they're young. They seem to loose all previous experiance when they get a level of wizard. Remember that proficiant with something isn't the same as being good with it, just that you don't suck monumentally due to complete incompetance with it.

Personally I think weapons proficiancies should be something gained in game, much like wizards spells. If you spend a few days practicing with a sword you should become proficiant with it, not that that would change your BAB or anything. Maybe keeping exotic weapons to only the full BAB classes for trained proficiancy and still needing a feat for the others.

[The John]

Still would be better in it than human tailor, but that doesn't mean "good at it".

If that certain tailor is an expert he is proficient, even if he is just a mere commoner he might even be proficient with the sling.

Even the halfling tailor who tends customers the whole day, and when he gets a break from work he plays with his sling, is better with the sling than the most of the time adventuring and making a living killing things (most likely though without the use of the sling) wizard or psion.

All the groups I play with have houseruled it. But the point is why is it that the halfling is genetically predisposed to be good with the sling but one isn't just so good to be proficient with one.

[Spiryt]

yet their entry says halflings play around with slings all the time while they're young. They seem to loose all previous experiance when they get a level of wizard. Remember that proficiant with something isn't the same as being good with it, just that you don't suck monumentally due to complete incompetance with it.

Well, wizards certainly do not shot from slings too often. So it's clear that halfling who is/will be mage do not spend so much time (if any) on slinging as other young halflings, cause he's learning spells.

Taking level of wizard doesn't make you loose profinences you already have (from the level of cleric for example), so where's the problem?

And in PHB there's a line that "it's a common sport". It's clear that mages probably do not sports, thus no profinency.

Of course there are exceptions, but we can't expect from game like D&D to be so complex about all possibilities.

[Zincorium]

yet their entry says halflings play around with slings all the time while they're young. They seem to loose all previous experiance when they get a level of wizard. Remember that proficiant with something isn't the same as being good with it, just that you don't suck monumentally due to complete incompetance with it.

Playing around is not nearly the same thing as being able to use a weapon in combat, that should be fairly evident. Halfling children are not trained in the use of slings as weaponry, unlike elves, who do get free proficiencies.

pro·fi·cient
adj. Having or marked by an advanced degree of competence, as in an art, vocation, profession, or branch of learning.

(emphasis mine)

So, to directly contradict you, proficient does mean you are good at something, in fact it means that you are very good.

Personally I think weapons proficiancies should be something gained in game, much like wizards spells. If you spend a few days practicing with a sword you should become proficiant with it, not that that would change your BAB or anything. Maybe keeping exotic weapons to only the full BAB classes for trained proficiancy and still needing a feat for the others.

'Practicing for a few days' does not make you a trained wielder, it takes some actual dedication. You apparently don't have any experience with fencing or any similar sport. Ask them if you can compete and win after just a week of training, they'll probably laugh and tell you it's more like months.

Spending a feat or multiclassing to a class which does have proficiency represents the work put into learning how to use something well.

[mostlyharmful]

'Practicing for a few days' does not make you a trained wielder, it takes some actual dedication. You apparently don't have any experience with fencing or any similar sport. Ask them if you can compete and win after just a week of training, they'll probably laugh and tell you it's more like months.

Spending a feat or multiclassing to a class which does have proficiency represents the work put into learning how to use something well.

I've been a renacter for six years, I've practiced fencing and several martial arts. I know people don't go from novice to competative in a few days. What they do, if it's an intensive few days and you keep up the practice, is get a grip on the basics. Which is what the proficiency means, irrespective of how it's described in the PHB the mechanics of it means that proficiency means familiarity in using the weapon, not exceptional ability with it. And to bring up the dictionary definition of the word isn't a big help in identifying what it means in DnD, see Dausals sig.

[The John]

Playing around is not nearly the same thing as being able to use a weapon in combat, that should be fairly evident.

Yet they play so much that they do get a bonus... everyone of them... even the wizard gets a bonus. As before, he's good enough to get the bonus but not good enough to be proficient. An elf practices with and therefore is proficient with a good array of weapons... but not enough to get any extra bonuses say like plus 1 with any of those weapons...

[Spiryt]

Yet they play so much that they do get a bonus... everyone of them... even the wizard gets a bonus. As before, he's good enough to get the bonus but not good enough to be proficient. An elf practices with and therefore is proficient with a good array of weapons... but not enough to get any extra bonuses say like plus 1 with any of those weapons...

Nitpicking.
Non-profinency means - 4 penalty. So there is difference of 3 between + 1 halflings and proficient elves. Elves are just better with their "racial" weapons.

[Zincorium]

I've been a renacter for six years, I've practiced fencing and several martial arts. I know people don't go from novice to competative in a few days. What they do, if it's an intensive few days and you keep up the practice, is get a grip on the basics. Which is what the proficiency means, irrespective of how it's described in the PHB the mechanics of it means that proficiency means familiarity in using the weapon, not exceptional ability with it. And to bring up the dictionary definition of the word isn't a big help in identifying what it means in DnD, see Dausals sig.

You seem to be ignoring just how big the gap between proficient and non proficient in D&D is, a gap which jibes precisely with the dictionary definition.

-4. This is the same penalty as being flat on the ground and trying to attack someone. It should be pretty dang clear that proficiency in D&D, which gives an effective +4 over someone who isn't, is a MAJOR increase in skill. Non proficient means you're swinging a sword like a length of pipe (improvised weapon).

If you can throw a dagger and hit a target 45 feet away as often as someone who isn't trained can hit one 5 feet away, then you're proficient in D&D terms.

If you're shaken and fatigued, a proficient person is still as good as a nonproficient person who isn't either.

[mostlyharmful]

You seem to be ignoring just how big the gap between proficient and non proficient in D&D is, a gap which jibes precisely with the dictionary definition.

And I think you're underestimating the learning curve of people under pressure given a naturally physical childhood.

It's an understandable mechanic in a level based system but the idea that a wizard or whatever can have an hours arms practice a day in the evenings around the camp fire and not pick up the basics of how to fight with a sword from the fighter in the party is absurd. They wouldn't be great with it, they'd lack the BAB and feats and wouldn't have the grit of the fighters hp but they shouldn't be treated as though they've never been trained in using a weapon more complicated than a quaterstaff (which is incidentally rather trickier to use well).

[Zincorium]

And I think you're underestimating the learning curve of people under pressure given a naturally physical childhood.

It's an understandable mechanic in a level based system but the idea that a wizard or whatever can have an hours arms practice a day in the evenings around the camp fire and not pick up the basics of how to fight with a sword from the fighter in the party is absurd. They wouldn't be great with it, they'd lack the BAB and feats and wouldn't have the grit of the fighters hp but they shouldn't be treated as though they've never been trained in using a weapon more complicated than a quaterstaff (which is incidentally rather trickier to use well).

In the system, a wizard under enough stress can figure out how to not only use every type of armor available but the vast majority of weapons. It just means he's not getting any better at casting spells. He'd also get a point of BAB, more hit points, and a bonus feat.

The problem I see with what you're saying is that it effectively gives out abilities for free.

If you really think that a few weeks of practice is enough to get 'proficiency' in a weapon, then you should just give wizards that proficiency for free to begin with. They've spent years learning how to cast spells, and if you can simultaneously learn:

1. How to cast more spells and higher level ones.
2. The training necessary for a feat.
3. Proficiency in a weapon.

It should have been happening all along.

[Roderick_BR]

I'm almost sure that rogues didn't get sling in 3.0 either, so your halfling rogue could use a hand crossbow, but not a sling.

[Talic]

Playing around is not nearly the same thing as being able to use a weapon in combat, that should be fairly evident. Halfling children are not trained in the use of slings as weaponry, unlike elves, who do get free proficiencies.

The correlation between hitting targets and the town cur with a sling, and hitting the wolf running at you... well, it's a small one.
[/quote]

So, to directly contradict you, proficient does mean you are good at something, in fact it means that you are very good.

Dictionary definition of proficiency does not apply in this. We are not demonstrating proficiency with it. In D&D, we HAVE proficiencies. They are things, measurable things. And, in 3.5 D&D, "proficiency" means a feat that removes a -4 penalty from an attack roll. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Placing top in a group of trained professionals doesn't mean your "proficient", anyway. It shows that you're an expert, which is a greater level of training, something correlated in D&D by base attack bonus, and weapon focus, not proficiencies. Proficiencies mean you are familiar enough with a weapon to not make the basic mistakes a complete novice makes. It does not mean, "able to score top in a Mensa class", or "able to blow the family jewels off a gnat at 400 paces".

'Practicing for a few days' does not make you a trained wielder, it takes some actual dedication. You apparently don't have any experience with fencing or any similar sport. Ask them if you can compete and win after just a week of training, they'll probably laugh and tell you it's more like months.

Proficient, and "top in field" are completely different. See above comment.

Spending a feat or multiclassing to a class which does have proficiency represents the work put into learning how to use something well.

"Ah yes, I come from the land of Kalim, where all weapons are bone, and we have not ever even seen a bow, much less touched one. But I'm a level 1 fighter, so I am expertly trained, and able to win archery contests."
Another flaw in D&D. 1 class level (gained in 14 encounters, or 4 days, if fighting 4 appropriate CR's a day) means I've trained extensively enough with EVERY SINGLE MARTIAL WEAPON in existence enough to win tournaments with it. In 4 days. Look at your own arguement above, and compare it to this scenario. Result: You fail.

[Eldritch_Ent]

I'd go ahead and give them both automatic proficiency AND the +1 to slings. Slings are lame weapons anyway, but flavorful, so it's not even really a boost.

As for the argument of "+1 is not proficient", ehh... I'd say in this case, hours of practice and having it be a cultural tradition, means it's as good a candidate for free proficiences as hammers are to dwarves, and bows to elves. Proficiency is just knowing how to pick it up and use it. Being GREAT with a weapon is "Weapon Specialization" and "Weapon Focus". BAB is more along the lines of general fighting- being able to read feints and not telegraphing your moves so much.

Remember- Being able to hit the target- Proficiency. Being able to compete- Focus/Specialization.

[endoperez]

Regarding slings:

You can take up a sling, practise for a day or two and be good enough to pretty constantly fire rocks at the direction you want. The first few tries, the rock might drop to the ground, or fly straight up or behind you. Once you get the timing of the release down, you'll be able to shoot at the approximate direction you want to. If you're naturally good at throwing things (dex) or have practiced shooting with other projectile weapons (BAB), you might actually hit e.g. a tree you aimed for. To be considered proficient, the children would have to not only play with slings, but to be forced to use them. As an example, it's said the the balearic islanders used to practice their slinging by not allowing kids food until they had hit it with their slings; a test of skill would consist of being able to hit the five horizontal poles of a fence-gate in order.

That'd be "proficient with a sling". You know, readying action to fire at the charging half-giant, confident that you will hit him.

P.S.
I think David was Cleric 1, and cast Magic Stone before the battle and Divine Favor when Goliath was talking. No one had enough Spallcraft to realize he was casting. 1d6+1 (magic stone) +1 (divine favor) +strength...

[Leon]

If its a big enough sling - Halfling with a slingshot bikini