Ability Scores in 4 ed.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

In an ampersand article, they gave a stat block for a pit fiend. Having looked at the ability scores, i think i've figured out how ability modifiers work.

you take the ability score (let's say, 20), divide it by two rounding down (so 10 with our example) and add 8 (working out to +18 modifier)

Thoughts?

[Douglas]

There's been some discussion about this before, both for the pit fiend and for some other monster stat block, and the conclusion was that ability score modifiers are exactly the same as in 3.x, plus half the monster's level.

However, the hit point totals for those monsters are far too low for the given constitution bonuses and hit dice unless either constitution does not give bonus hp on a per HD basis or the level-based part of the bonus does not contribute to hp. I personally suspect that the modifiers presented in monster stat blocks are there purely for things like untrained skill checks that default to the base ability modifier, and therefore include the level/2 bonus to almost everything that 4E introduces because that bonus would apply to everything the DM needs that number for, but the actual ability modifier is still as for 3.x.

[Artanis]

There's been some discussion about this before, both for the pit fiend and for some other monster stat block, and the conclusion was that ability score modifiers are exactly the same as in 3.x, plus half the monster's level.

However, the hit point totals for those monsters are far too low for the given constitution bonuses and hit dice unless either constitution does not give bonus hp on a per HD basis or the level-based part of the bonus does not contribute to hp. I personally suspect that the modifiers presented in monster stat blocks are there purely for things like untrained skill checks that default to the base ability modifier, and therefore include the level/2 bonus to almost everything that 4E introduces because that bonus would apply to everything the DM needs that number for, but the actual ability modifier is still as for 3.x.

That's what I figured as well.

Really, that's about the only reason I can think of for including that sort of information. STR is already factored into the BAB and damage entries, CON is already factored into the Fort and HP entries, etc.

[holywhippet]

I've heard that ability modifiers will always be positive in 4th edition. Something like 1-2 = +1, 3-4= +2 etc.

Not sure why the pit fiend has 18, but I'd guess it might be size related - a big creature can better use it's strength as it has mass behind it as well.

I think the reason for this change is because of a flaw in how AC values are calculated. Lets say you have two twin brother - Tim and Tom. Tim worked in a blacksmiths shop growing up so he's pretty strong, but not very dexterous because of all that muscle mass. Tom joined the local ballet company as a youngster so he's got plenty of dexterity. Say Tim and Tom have dex scores of 8 and 14 respectively - that means modifiers of -1 and +2 respectively. Tim and Tom both decide to become adventurers and get a discount on an identical pair of chain mail armours. Now early on in their career, Tim and Tom run into a wizard who hits them with a blindness spell - both of them fail their saving throws. Tom loses all his +2 bonus to AC because of this. Tim however, still has his -1 penalty to AC from his low dexterity - apparently his clumsy body will automatically throw itself towards incoming attacks. Even though both brothers should have the same AC given the same armour and circumstances, they differ in AC by one for no good reason.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

where could i find the stat blocks for these other monsters? both the level thing and my thing work out for ability mods, and i'd like to confirm one of them

[Mojo_Rat]

The reason for the apparenty high stat mods is because of where the stats are listed. Which is to say Under the SKILLS of the monster. Fromw What I understand They seem to be using the Same Model as Sega Which is I believe Stat + half level for un trained and stat + half level +5 for trained?. (somone more familiar feel free to correct me) but anyhow You should find the bonuses for the pit fiend fit within this model.

This is becase listing the stats twice ont he sheet would be redundant and knowing the Bonus for a 26 strength is +8 is less nescecary than knowing That the pit fiend uses for untrained strength skill checks.

[Nebo_]

You get half your HD to Ability checks in 4e. I'm not sure if that counts toward the total modifier for other things like weapon damage, but I'd assume it doesn't.

[shadowdemon_lord]

Thank god, they're finally balancing ability checks. No longer shall the raging Half-orc barbarian cringe when a strength check is called for!

[Person_Man]

There's been some discussion about this before, both for the pit fiend and for some other monster stat block, and the conclusion was that ability score modifiers are exactly the same as in 3.x, plus half the monster's level.

However, the hit point totals for those monsters are far too low for the given constitution bonuses and hit dice unless either constitution does not give bonus hp on a per HD basis or the level-based part of the bonus does not contribute to hp. I personally suspect that the modifiers presented in monster stat blocks are there purely for things like untrained skill checks that default to the base ability modifier, and therefore include the level/2 bonus to almost everything that 4E introduces because that bonus would apply to everything the DM needs that number for, but the actual ability modifier is still as for 3.x.

That's my take on it as well.

Also, there's been some discussion about whether or not monsters will run on the same "physics" as PCs. For example, a monster might just have higher or lower hit points or more special abilities just because the writer decided it would be a good idea, regardless of what its Con or hit dice might otherwise indicate. This allows writers to create more balanced monsters (ie, if you want a monster to have a lot of hit points, it doesn't automatically make it mostly immune to entire categories of spells and effects). But it takes away from the "reality" of the game. We'll just have to wait and see if this is the case or not.