Elder Evils-Plots

[Callos_DeTerran]

Was recently reading through the Elder Evils book (Which I think is great by the way) and some thoughts came to my mind. Well a bunch actually but only a few are relevant to this thread.

Has anybody gotten any use out of it in their campaigns yet? Used any of the material inside of it?

How did it go? (In the 'did your players enjoy the game/encounter with the Elder Evil and accompanying minions)

How did you handle the signs? They seem pretty wide-spread and random at times, did any of your players ignore them because they didn't seem as important? Or did they take quick action?

Did you come up with your own Elder Evil or use one of the pre-made ones?

Which one of the pre-made Elder Evils is your favorite? (Mine is currently a tie between Atropeus, Panodyrm, and the Leviathan)

This is the big one here...how would you...expand upon the example story-lines?

[Illiterate Scribe]

My favourite's between Pandorym, Leviathan and Atropus, but to be honest, I was slightly disappointed with the rest of them.

They've got some nice concepts, but I just found them too ridiculously weak for what they were.

Case in point - the Hulks of Zoretha. When I was reading the intro, I thought 'wow, colossus level hulks of tremendous power'.

When I saw the sblock?

WHO IN THE PRIME sends a CR 16 encounter to DESTROY THE WHOLE WORLD? Even at E6, it wouldn't be too hard.

[Callos_DeTerran]

My favourite's between Pandorym, Leviathan and Atropus, but to be honest, I was slightly disappointed with the rest of them.

They've got some nice concepts, but I just found them too ridiculously weak for what they were.

Case in point - the Hulks of Zoretha. When I was reading the intro, I thought 'wow, colossus level hulks of tremendous power'.

When I saw the sblock?

WHO IN THE PRIME sends a CR 16 encounter to DESTROY THE WHOLE WORLD? Even at E6, it wouldn't be too hard.

The rest of them weren't too bad...it was mostly special effects and their signs that make them the dangers that they are. Take...Ragnorra (sp?) for example. I'd actually say she is a big threat but lost most of her mass in impact and resulting in the CR 19 monster you see.

And the Hulks are old...maybe from a time when level 10 was a major accomplishment and they'd be big threats then. 'sides...couldn't make them too powerful if your fighting them all (And then some) at once.

[Doresain]

my favorites would have to be Atropus, the Worm that Walks, and i guess Sertrous...Llymic was alright, mainly because i thought the broodspawn were cool, and Ragnorra just screamed FF7...

the Worm was, in my opinion, the coolest because he had the most story behind him...i mean come on, he and his minions have been mentioned in at least 3 other books that i know of, so that has to count for something

[Illiterate Scribe]

The rest of them weren't too bad...it was mostly special effects and their signs that make them the dangers that they are. Take...Ragnorra (sp?) for example. I'd actually say she is a big threat but lost most of her mass in impact and resulting in the CR 19 monster you see.

Yeah, the signs were worst. They spewed out fort saves like nobodies' business, and Atropus ... :shudder:

And the Hulks are old...maybe from a time when level 10 was a major accomplishment and they'd be big threats then. 'sides...couldn't make them too powerful if your fighting them all (And then some) at once.

Yeah, but even with 6th level characters, say, they'd still be defeatable, not world-ending. Also, when you fight them, you're ECL 20. Four levels ago, you should have been able to defeat that encounter 4/day.

If I was to run that campaign, I think I'd have them as Colossi. 4 stone, 1 iron.

At E6.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Yeah, the signs were worst. They spewed out fort saves like nobodies' business, and Atropus ... :shudder:

Atropus probably has the best sign ever, expect for maybe Father Lymic. He makes a friggin zombie apocalypse for heaven's sake!

Yeah, but even with 6th level characters, say, they'd still be defeatable, not world-ending. Also, when you fight them, you're ECL 20. Four levels ago, you should have been able to defeat that encounter 4/day.

If I was to run that campaign, I think I'd have them as Colossi. 4 stone, 1 iron.

At E6.

...I honestly don't think the Hulks are defeatable at EL 10. They aren't just stupid constructs afterall, they are more then smart enough for intelligent tactics and should be played that way. Aside from that they ARE tough SOBs. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion but they seem plenty deadly to me.

Ragnorra on the other hand...needs creative use to be deadly. Points for creativity but not for effectiveness.

[FoE]

What I like about Atropus is that it really embodies the "undefeatable evil from beyond the cosmos" concept. You can't really beat Atropus — all you can do is beat it off (not what you're thinking, sickos) by defeating the vessel for its consciousness that wanders around on the World Born Dead's surface. And that's going to be quite a fight getting to it, considering the legions of powerful undead haunting the World Born Dead.

[Illiterate Scribe]

...I honestly don't think the Hulks are defeatable at EL 10. They aren't just stupid constructs afterall, they are more then smart enough for intelligent tactics and should be played that way. Aside from that they ARE tough SOBs. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion but they seem plenty deadly to me.

Yes, but not as deadly as they're played up to be. They should, in my opinion, be near invincible in a straight fight; otherwise, it's just a matter of 'lolz a construct lets fierbal it!!!1!'.

They just didn't inspire the 'oh ----' reaction that an elder evil should:

Atropal's 'anything that dies turns into a zombie'? Check.

Pandorym's 'My very thoughts are epic psions and my body is a large, unavoidable sphere of annihilation'? Check.

Big elemental statues with breath weapons? Meh.

[The_Snark]

I was kind of unimpressed with the idea that the Hulks were simply vaguely humanoid statues, actually. Why are the things from another world building something that even remotely resembles us?

If I were to use them, I'd redo them as huge (as in Colossal) stone (maybe?) oblong things, which begin to raise from the ground as they awaken. CR could stay like it is if the world was low-powered, or be significantly increased if not, but remember, with their sign, there won't be any sort of unified resistance.

Pity, because I liked the idea and they had some of the most interesting cultists. Their sign and cultists can stay as is.

Same goes for Father Llymic; an extradimensional horror of ice and snow, and they represent him as a bug demon? Meh. I'd replace that with a strange non-Euclidean creature/structure that strains the mind to even look at, if you can somehow manage to see what it looks like in the darkness. Don't know what I'd do about the spawn. He has one of the most devastating signs, too, so it was a pity they decided on the bug demon route.

Atropus works well as-is, but I've never been too much a fan of zombie apocalypses. Leviathan is neat; more of a mythical creature than most of the other destroy-the-world creatures, but that's fine. Pandorym and Ragnorra were okay, too, and I liked Ragnorra's ability to harass the players continuously through the worldweb.

[FoE]

I don't hear too much love for Zargon or Sertrous.

You know, the representation of Father Lymic as a bug-monster does kind of clash with what they were trying to do there.

[shadowdemon_lord]

So what, they took the idea of elder horrors and then neglected to read any H.P. Lovecraft/Cthulu mythos? WTF?

[Illiterate Scribe]

I don't hear too much love for Zargon or Sertrous.

[Bosaxon]

I purchased the book over the weekend, and there is something I don't quite understand. How are the PC's supposed to reach the moonlet? In all honesty, you'd need some sort of spelljammer crossover or a really creative necromancer mixed with a gnomish inventor think tank to solve the distance/enviroment barrier.

[The_Snark]

I don't think there's anything stopping you from teleporting onto the moonlet—and off it, when it retreats. And I'm pretty certain that there are other spells and items you could use to cross safely; Telekinetic Sphere, an Apparatus of Kwalish... that sort of thing.

Sertrous... I'll give it credit for looking kind of neat. Not that interesting otherwise.

[Bosaxon]

I don't think there's anything stopping you from teleporting onto the moonlet—and off it, when it retreats. And I'm pretty certain that there are other spells and items you could use to cross safely; Telekinetic Sphere, an Apparatus of Kwalish... that sort of thing.

True, I suppose. I was more concerned about actually covering the 250,000 miles given as an example with as little resource expenditure as possible.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Could always use the bodak's glider...if you don't kill it that is.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

What I like about Atropus is that it really embodies the "undefeatable evil from beyond the cosmos" concept. You can't really beat Atropus — all you can do is beat it off (not what you're thinking, sickos) by defeating the vessel for its consciousness that wanders around on the World Born Dead's surface. And that's going to be quite a fight getting to it, considering the legions of powerful undead haunting the World Born Dead.

Or, you can use nuclear weapons (or serious Epic Spells). The moonlet is only a few hundred miles wide after all.


Generally speaking, WotC gimped the Elder Evils. If a Balor is more challenging than many of them, what's the point? Their signs might be scary but they are not.

[FoE]

Nuclear weapons in a high-fantasy setting?

Well, when you put it that way, I suppose the Death Star does own Atropus. But I don't recall seeing Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader in any fantasy campaigns that I've played.

Anyways, I think it's worth noting that Elder Evils weren't meant to be "additional challenges for your Epic-level campaign as you chug along to Level 50!" They're meant to be campaign-enders for mid to high-level characters. 'Cause even if you beat these guys, the world as you know it is irrevocably changed. Mostly because nearly everyone's dead.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Nuclear Weapons are not part of any epic campaign. Normally. But if you are lvl 21+ and you have Epic Spellcasting and enough followers, you can make Epic Spells to replicate nuclear weapons-or even the Death Star.

[FoE]

Nuclear Weapons are not part of any epic campaign. Normally. But if you are lvl 21+ and you have Epic Spellcasting and enough followers, you can make Epic Spells to replicate nuclear weapons-or even the Death Star.

... Not in my campaign you don't.

[Talic]

Or, you can use nuclear weapons (or serious Epic Spells). The moonlet is only a few hundred miles wide after all.


Generally speaking, WotC gimped the Elder Evils. If a Balor is more challenging than many of them, what's the point? Their signs might be scary but they are not.

Only a few hundred miles? It's time for "Rock falls, enemies die"... Break out my complete warrior, I need a hulking hurler, a necklace of adaptation, a couple levels of PsiWar to anchor myself in space, and a freakin' huge rock.

[BadJuJu]

Only a few hundred miles? It's time for "Rock falls, enemies die"... Break out my complete warrior, I need a hulking hurler, a necklace of adaptation, a couple levels of PsiWar to anchor myself in space, and a freakin' huge rock.

Sounds familiar.

[hamlet]

After reading through the book briefly, I honestly think that WOTC's versions of "Elder Evils" are rather tame.

What about a community project to create a truly frightening Elder Evil?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Hey, that's a good idea. Elder Evils should be scary, not wimps. I'll make Pandorym. Who wants to make the others?

[Callos_DeTerran]

After reading through the book briefly, I honestly think that WOTC's versions of "Elder Evils" are rather tame.

What about a community project to create a truly frightening Elder Evil?

I think you were expecting something too much like Cthulhu when you went through it then. Something that isn't beaten or driven off, ever. If a campaign ended in an encounter like that, I'd be pissed as hell at the DM. It's probably why the WotC Elder Evils were 'tamed', as you put it, down so they make better campaign capstones rather then 'Oh look, an undefeatable monster. Well, this world is boned, lets get out of here.'

Even as far as the Elder Evil's in that book go, Panodrym's on the upper ranks of power for it, why does it need changed? Atropus, Panodrym, and the Leviathan are fine as they are, people only seem to be complaining about the likes of Ragnorra, Father, and Seterous.

[Hecatonchires]

I'm about to run a feudal era, knight campaign with the Restless Dead sign and possibly the bodak blackguard from the book.

Will let you know the reactions of my players as they happen.

I definitely look forward to using the -probably- last 3.5 book from WOTC. Especially as apocalyptically delicious as it is.

[FoE]

I think you were expecting something too much like Cthulhu when you went through it then. Something that isn't beaten or driven off, ever. If a campaign ended in an encounter like that, I'd be pissed as hell at the DM. It's probably why the WotC Elder Evils were 'tamed', as you put it, down so they make better campaign capstones rather then 'Oh look, an undefeatable monster. Well, this world is boned, lets get out of here.'

Agreed. The point here was to make a defeatable menace, not simply to stat out Cthulhu.

Player: "OK guys, let's get ready, the Elder Evil is about to appear!"
DM: "Nyarlothep steps out of the gate. Roll your Will saves. (Waits for roll) Sorry, you failed. You all go crazy from the sight of him. Nyarlothep eats you."
Player: "You son of a ..."

[Illiterate Scribe]

Hey, that's a good idea. Elder Evils should be scary, not wimps. I'll make Pandorym. Who wants to make the others?

Pandorym's the only one I thought was actually a scary threat in itself, mostly because of the fact that one could imagine him posing a threat to the Prime. Nonetheless, I think that I would remake the Hulks of Zoretha.

Hmm. Mountain-sized meteor creatures made of the elements. Hmmm ...

I think you were expecting something too much like Cthulhu when you went through it then. Something that isn't beaten or driven off, ever. If a campaign ended in an encounter like that, I'd be pissed as hell at the DM. It's probably why the WotC Elder Evils were 'tamed', as you put it, down so they make better campaign capstones rather then 'Oh look, an undefeatable monster. Well, this world is boned, lets get out of here.'

Yes, but fighting the Hulks, which were the same CR as a mature adult green dragon? Pshaw.

[hamlet]

I think you were expecting something too much like Cthulhu when you went through it then. Something that isn't beaten or driven off, ever. If a campaign ended in an encounter like that, I'd be pissed as hell at the DM. It's probably why the WotC Elder Evils were 'tamed', as you put it, down so they make better campaign capstones rather then 'Oh look, an undefeatable monster. Well, this world is boned, lets get out of here.'

Even as far as the Elder Evil's in that book go, Panodrym's on the upper ranks of power for it, why does it need changed? Atropus, Panodrym, and the Leviathan are fine as they are, people only seem to be complaining about the likes of Ragnorra, Father, and Seterous.

No, I wasn't thinking Cthulhu, but I was thinking in the same vein.

Elder Evils (those unspeakable horrors from beyond the known realms of sanity) should be something way beyond even the strongest of heroes. They shouldn't be able to win in a standup fight against it at any level.

The best that they can hope for is to seal it away for a time, or forever, or to "save as many as you can" and get out of its way.

Anything less isn't an elder evil, it's just an especially tough boss fight which means it might as well be a video game at that point.

[FoE]

OK, the Hulks are a wash, and Zargon is a bit lame, but I would like to definitely work something like Atropus, the Worm that Walks or the Leviathan (especially if it was a heavy seafaring one) into my campaign.