Hiding a Lich's Sanctuary...

[Funkyodor]

...on the Positive Energy Plane? While researching some after reading the Energy Substitution: Positive Energy thread below, I discovered that per the SRD undead benefit from fast healing as normal and that the Positive Energy Plane doesn't do Positive Energy damage, but gives fast healing instead. And Undead are immune to the Fort save versus explosion after getting temporary HP greater than their normal HP. Side affect good, Undead never stop gaining temp HP's on the Positive Energy Plane (Thats like +5,256,000 temp HP for a skeleton thats been there one year!) and Positive energy spells are maximized. Side affect bad, the Cleric Turn/Destruction is better and Negative Energy spells/spell like abilities are impeded. This leads to the Lich using spells like Mass Heal and Heal to cause players to make fatal Fort saves every round and the like.

My question is, are there any Necromancy spells (or spells that help Undead) that don't deal with Negative Energy? And if so, which would be the best to use in this situation?

(I know that this goes against everything that RAI D&D should stand for. But the expression on the leap attacking frenzied barbarian that expects to kill all 5-6 skeletons with his full attack and just barely manages to chip ones tooth sounds priceless.)

[Kyace]

The best spell I can think of in that situation would be Cloudkill. This lowers the Con of those that fail the saving throw which lowers the max HP, which in turn speeds up exploding, as well as hurts their future fort saves and it doesn't affect your undead.

[lord_khaine]

i also belive that there are some fun rules regarding the positive energy plane that makes undead take some sort of nasty save each round or explode in a impressive way.

[Zincorium]

i also belive that there are some fun rules regarding the positive energy plane that makes undead take some sort of nasty save each round or explode in a impressive way.

Actually, Funkyodor is right on the money as far as the current, 3.5 description. Undead are immune to the nasty save each round or explode in an impressive way that you're talking about.

Of course, in planescape 2nd edition, undead were just outright obliterated moments after reaching the plane. Negative energy plane was similarly nasty to living creatures, and even the undead had to worry about just vanishing into the nothingness.

[Paragon Badger]

i also belive that there are some fun rules regarding the positive energy plane that makes undead take some sort of nasty save each round or explode in a impressive way.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm

Wherever it is, I can't find it...

[Roderick_BR]

Is the fast healing from the positive energy plane considered a healing effect? Because that deals damage to undead, so they have "fast damaging", losing HP in the same proportion a living creature gains HP. If not, WotC messed up (again) with their rewrites.

[Zincorium]

Is the fast healing from the positive energy plane considered a healing effect? Because that deals damage to undead, so they have "fast damaging", losing HP in the same proportion a living creature gains HP. If not, WotC messed up (again) with their rewrites.

That second one. Fast healing cures HP damage normally for undead, in fact vampires and probably a few others have it on all the time.

[The Professor]

...............

Well, I suppose this means my group's jokes about Plane Shifting undead to the Positive Energy Plane have come to an end.

As a player, I'd exploit this absurd little loop-hole.

[Roderick_BR]

That second one. Fast healing cures HP damage normally for undead, in fact vampires and probably a few others have it on all the time.

Yeah, I was thinking on the vampire, that's why I asked if the fast healing in the positive energy plane was considered healing or not. Checking the d20 hypertext page, it really grants normak fast healing for everyone, no exception.
Then the negative plane says that only living creatures takes damage.
Definitively, a horrible oversight. An variation I read on magazine did use an actual healing scale, instead of just saying that creatures gains fast healing. Made mode sense.

[Funkyodor]

The Cloudkill idea sounds good, along with other CON lowering attacks, to reduce the Fort save bonus and speed up the "head 'asplode" situation. Good note for PC's though is that it looks like Undead can't use alot of their (sp) abilities after this Positive Reinforcement.

Good Ideas and points so far. The only drawback is that it adds a blanket difficulty to all the monsters there, so normally crappy encounters (Zombies and Golems and Ghasts, oh my!) become challenging till you figure out you need to Turn them, and then you got to hope you don't run out of Turn attempts before you get to the bad guy.

[Kyace]

If you throw few larger undead rather than hordes of low HD undead, unhallow will protect the undead some. The max HD of undead you can turn will be lower (on average) in an unhallowed section of a positive plane, but you can turn more of the undead that fall under your max HD from your turning check. And the spell doesn't speak of negative energy, only a profane bonus/penalty.

[sikyon]

(Thats like +5,256,000 temp HP for a skeleton thats been there one year!)

Shouldn't this be 5 HP/6seconds * 60 seconds/minute * 60 minutes/hour * 24 hours/day * 365 days/year = 26 280 000 temp HP?

While not necromancy, I suggest forcecage to trap them there and dimensional anchor/lock to prevent teleportation. Just let them sit there and eventually fail their fort saves.

[ladditude]

Make the Lich a Radiomancer as well. Just to abuse the lack of a fort save/con even more.

[Doresain]

*sniff* this thread makes me a very happy necromancer

[olelia]

What makes the lich immune to the explosion effect? It doesn't really seem a death effect as more of a positive energy effect.

[NEO|Phyte]

What makes the lich immune to the explosion effect? It doesn't really seem a death effect as more of a positive energy effect.

It requires a fort save, and it doesn't work on objects (nor is it harmless)

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

[KillianHawkeye]

Just as a confirmation...

Undead are almost impossible to find on this plane

This would imply that it is occasionally possible (i.e. not COMPLETELY impossible) to find Undead there.

[Collin152]

Wow, paradoxal protection.
Liches get all the good stuff. They even get their own plane of ultimate power.

[sikyon]

Wow, paradoxal protection.
Liches get all the good stuff. They even get their own plane of ultimate power.

I'm not sure if this works DM fiat probably prevents it.

Impeded magic. Spells and spell-like abilities that use negative energy (including inflict spells) are impeded.

I would wager that a lich channels negative energy, the process of creating it uses negative energy. All undead are powered by negative energy. Therefore, their very existence is impeded on the negative energy plane. What that means, exactly, is DM fiat.

Though those "exceedingly rare" undead on the plane would have massive HP.


HOWEVER, constructs are not negative energy. A construct on this plane would be... ridiculous.

[Chronos]

This would imply that it is occasionally possible (i.e. not COMPLETELY impossible) to find Undead there.

Under the way the should have written the rules, this would mean that occasionally, some highly-powerful undead might plane shift to Positive for three rounds to accomplish some very quick errand. If the literal interpretation of the rules were correct, then undead ought to not only be found occasionally on Positive; they should be all over the place, since they'd basically be indestructible there.

Or, in other words, the Rules As Written do imply that the Positive Energy Plane would be highly beneficial to undead, but this is one case where it would be a really, really good idea for the DM to apply Rule Zero.

[Collin152]

Yeah, no DM should let this slip by.
Unless they're going for irony and the negative energy plane somehow destroys undead.

[NEO|Phyte]

I would wager that a lich channels negative energy, the process of creating it uses negative energy. All undead are powered by negative energy. Therefore, their very existence is impeded on the negative energy plane. What that means, exactly, is DM fiat.

Only their CREATION uses spells (or spell-likes), their continued existence does not require any spells or spell-likes, and thus they are not hampered one bit.

[sikyon]

Only their CREATION uses spells (or spell-likes), their continued existence does not require any spells or spell-likes, and thus they are not hampered one bit.

I would argue that the definition of "spells" here is ambiguous, thereby going to the DM to decide the meaning. Even though the spell is instantaneous when cast, it's consequences are long lasting and those consequences could fall under the broad definition of "spells" here.

[NEO|Phyte]

I would argue that the definition of "spells" here is ambiguous, thereby going to the DM to decide the meaning. Even though the spell is instantaneous when cast, it's consequences are long lasting and those consequences could fall under the broad definition of "spells" here.

A spell is a one-time magical effect. Spells come in two types: arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers).

Doesn't sound that ambiguous to me.

And looking into the planar rules, the impediment isn't that bad anyway.

Impeded Magic

Particular spells and spell-like abilities are more difficult to cast on planes with this trait, often because the nature of the plane interferes with the spell.

To cast an impeded spell, the caster must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the level of the spell). If the check fails, the spell does not function but is still lost as a prepared spell or spell slot. If the check succeeds, the spell functions normally.

[sikyon]

Yeah that's a longshot RAW.

However, you could argue for positive energy fast healing to do damage to undead.

Cure light wounds:

"Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. An undead creature can apply spell resistance, and can attempt a Will save to take half damage."

Positive Energy Plane:
"An unprotected character on this plane swells with power as positive energy is force-fed into her. Then, her mortal frame unable to contain that power, she immolates as if she were a small planet caught at the edge of a supernova."

"Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it."

While this is not a "trait" or very technical aspect, it is still part of the description of the plane and lends weight to the idea that the fast healing.


However, this is important: "Immolate" is a very different term than "Explode" which is the descriptor for the fortitude save. Therefore, we can see that these are 2 different effects by RAW, and how "Immolation" is handled is directly up to the DM.

[Collin152]

THe only other tiem I recall hearing the word immolation was in A Cask of Amontillado, and I think once was quite enough of it.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

RAW there is a loophole apparently. In the old 2nd ed and perhaps 1st ed books (can't remmeber if Pos ele plane was in 1st ed) it counted as a constant healing effect (no 'fast healing' rule) and would harm undead since the healing was from positive energy just like curative magic. I think the fluff said that most undead would just turn to dust within moments. Humans would be rapidly healed, but would explode with energy if they stayed too long.

If I was DMing the game, the healing from the Positive elemental plane would harm undead....though, in a convention game or other game that is strictly RAW rather that intended...feel free to scam this exploit...in those games, it is a free for all and DM pitty be damned.

[NEO|Phyte]

Yeah that's a longshot RAW.

A longshot? That IS the RAW. Spells are defined by the game. That definition does not include "Creatures that are sustained by a given energy type after magical creation by an instantaneous effect." Even if it DID, the impeded magic planar trait only applies to things being cast while on the plane, and then is only a spellcraft check to not waste the spell slot when casting an impeded spell (interestingly, the rules are silent on how an SLA is impeded). Similarly, while the plane's flavor text talks of immolation, the actual game rules for the plane include nothing of the sort, just the exploding in a riot of energy. There's also no such thing as 'positive energy fast healing', just Fast Healing, which undead can benefit from.

[sikyon]

Similarly, while the plane's flavor text talks of immolation, the actual game rules for the plane include nothing of the sort, just the exploding in a riot of energy.

Flavor Text? D&D is a role playing game, flavor text IS rules text. All the description is relevant. This isn't Warhammer, where the flavor text is italicized for you neatly. The smell of a monster, the brightness of a spell, the colours of a stone, these are all very much rules text. Just because it doesn't involve dice does not mean it is not rules text. Is the physical description of the Positive Energy Plane (some pockets of minor positive energy, mostly major positive energy) just flavor text, with no bearing on the rules? Of course not.

In short, immolation is a clearly defined consequence of the positive energy plane, separate from the explosion otherwise defined. It does not have numbers to crunch with it, so therefore this additional consequence must be houseruled in by the DM.

[NEO|Phyte]

In short, immolation is a clearly defined consequence of the positive energy plane, separate from the explosion otherwise defined. It does not have numbers to crunch with it, so therefore this additional consequence must be houseruled in by the DM.

If the consequences of immolation (and the cause of the immolation effect, for that matter) need to be houseruled in by the DM, I don't think its quite as clearly defined as you say, and all the houseruling in the world means nothing in a RAW debate. By RAW, undead thrive on the Positive Energy Plane. Show us some RAW that says otherwise.

Is the physical description of the Positive Energy Plane (some pockets of minor positive energy, mostly major positive energy) just flavor text, with no bearing on the rules? Of course not.

Of course it's not flavor text, its included in the list of planar traits.