Atheism in D&D

[Kaelaroth]

In Dungeons and Dragons, is it possible to be an atheist? As divine magic is from one, or more deities, is it possible to deny that that is proof, and live a life godless? What's more, if you were atheist, where would you go in the after-life? And has anyone ever played an atheist in D&D?

[Eksar Lindisfar]

Regarding the divine powers, I've read somewhere that clerics can dedicate their lifes to ideals and philosophies and they still recieve power to cast divine magic, probably in the core manuals

[Matthew]

This seems to come up every few months here and it always runs into danger because defining our terms may lead to contravening the rules about discussing real life religion (or lack thereof).

Simple answer: It is possible be an atheist in D&D in the sense of 'there is/are no God(s)', but any such character is self evidently and demonstrably wrong (given that deities actually exist in a given D&D setting, I am assuming Greyhawk, as it is the default).

However, it is possible to deny that the beings that claim to be deities are in fact 'deities' and not just powerful beings. That, however, requires a nuanced definition of 'deity', but it is a point of view/philosophy that one of the factions in Planescape subscribes to. (Athar)

[Morty]

Depends on the setting, really. If you're an atheist in Forgotten Realms, for example, you're royally screwed after death, but in other settings it might look different. It might be possible to acknowledge the existence of dieties, but refuse to worship them.

[ladditude]

My DM once mentioned a class called the Nihilist which "disbelieves in things so hard the cease to exist to him."

As in, he can sit there and not be touched by an Ancient Gold Dragon while his party fights them since he disbelieves it. I have no idea where it is, or how well it works, but it seems pretty cool and kinda fits that whole concept.

[Name_Here]

Why is there so much fasination with the idea of Atheism in the D+D universe? I mean is the question really so interesting that we need a thread about it every 2 months? Not aiming this at you OP but to the board cause the threads die away pretty quickly.

As for your question about divine spellcasters proving that there are gods all the person needs to do is look around him. We have people who can cast spells because they read squiggly lines in a book, We have people who can cast spells because magic just naturally flows through their viens, and people who can cast spells because of their closeness to nature. Obviously the cleric is one of those who learned how to channel his powers in a slightly different way by using his holy symbol as a focus and his belief in his god as a channelling force. Doesn't mean that there is a god just that there are many ways to channel arcane powers.

As for where they go I think they would go to whatever after life their Alignment dictated. There's no mention that only the followers of the gods get into whatever mix of hevean and hell they get depending on what alignment they are.

[wolfishc]

Sure, it's possible. If someone just thought that the "gods" were nothing but amped up versions of all the ghosts or elementals that they fight on a semi-regular basis, they could probably decide that none of them are actually worthy of worship.

[Jayabalard]

certainly. Lots of different flavors. For one:

Maybe divine magic isn't actually any different than arcane magic... clerics are just deluded into believing that it's from a god.

[ColdBrew]

Also, if you can manage to avoid the cliches, your character will never likely meet a god. Just people who believe in one so hard they call down pillars of fire in its name.

[TempusCCK]

Atheism is D&D, is, if nothing else, a simple desire to worship no particular power. You cannot in good conscious think that "there's no such things as god" when Miracles and curing happens on a regular basis. Some higher order of power is running that deal, even if it is merely a collection of all the good wills in the world? That's still in a sense a higher order of power, or a God. You can merely choose to or choose not to "worship" this higher power, but there is no denying the fact that a higher, sentient (Miracle!) power exists in D&D.

So quit your complaining that people are dedicating themselves to a false non-existant power you mooks! This is a fantasy realm where Gods regularly intervene in the days to day lives of silly adventurers like you, ya' dang jerks.

[The Extinguisher]

I played an atheist who denied that the gods were gods because the existed.

Then he kind of got indentured by St. Cuthburt. And now he's a paladin, of the same god.
All while mantaining that he's not really a god.

[valadil]

I've played both a non-worshiper and someone else who worshiped every god in his own alignment, but no atheists. I have however seen an atheist cleric who believed in the ideal that divine magic doesn't actually come from any gods but from the manipulation of humours at the sub particle level. Outside of game he acknowledged that a god had tricked his character into this belief which is what actually fueled the divine magic. It was entertaining to watch.

[FatherMalkav]

Honestly, it matters greatly on your game word in my opinion. I once played a character, while not atheist, had grown up in an isolated tribe of mountain elves. He was a barbarian that believed in ancestor worship, but it was in the sense of pure belief, of divine magic kind of belief. The spirits were there because he knew they were, and when anything good/bad happened to him or his party he would attest they were responsible. It was my first campaign ad it drove my DM (a hardcore 2.0 gamer) up the wall.

[Serenity]

Depends on the setting.

In Forgotten Realms, it's hard to be an atheist in the classic sense of not believing that gods exist, since effectively omnipotent being can and do interfere with the world on a fairly regular basis. However, the argument could certainly be made that the so-called gods are nothing more than extraordinarily powerful beings, or that their fallible, human-like nature means they don't deserve worship. If evil psychotics like Cyric are possible, what in divinity is inherently worthy of respect?

In Eberron, on the other hand, it's an open question whether the Gods exist, and clerics derive their spellcasting as much from belief as anything (or if the Gods are indeed the real deal, than when a cleric 'falls' another deity takes him up). Thus in such a setting, being an atheist in the classic sense is only a little more difficult than in the real world.

[Mr. Friendly]

I cannot speak to Eberron, being only passingly familiar with it. I can expound on the other settings though.

Forgotten Realms: While it is *technically* possible, it is highly absurd since, well, Mystra and or Bane and or any of the 5000 other FR deities is likely having a kegger in the house next door. It also means getting spackled into the wall of the False.

Greyhawk; generic D&D: More possible than FR, since the deities are less likely to show up at the drop of a hat, if at all. The PHB specifically says that you just be clerica generica, simply picking two domains.

Dark Sun: I am unsure of how much the setting has changed since it's original release in 2e. I think most people would be considered atheists, of course given that there are actually no deities, that is a simple matter.

Spelljammer: Problematic depending on your original setting. It is all too likely in your travels to meet things and see things that would make it untenable to be an atheist.

[hewhosaysfish]

It also means getting spackled into the wall of the False.

That's often bugged me: have none of the Good gods ever stopped and said "Hey, er, Kelemvor... Do you not think that's a bit harsh?"
By what justification is building a wall out off people's souls appropriate for a non-Evil character?

PS And it's the Faithless that get put in the Wall. I can't remember what happens to the False.

[DeathQuaker]

In Dungeons and Dragons, is it possible to be an atheist? As divine magic is from one, or more deities, is it possible to deny that that is proof, and live a life godless? What's more, if you were atheist, where would you go in the after-life? And has anyone ever played an atheist in D&D?

You might do a "Search" for older threads that discuss this in depth.

As others point out, it's largely dependent on the campaign setting you're working with.

In a D&D game where Deities actually do show up in physical form from time to time (or even quite often, as in the Forgotten Realms), an atheist would actually be denying the obvious proof in front of him.

In such worlds, I think having an atheist--as in, truly, someone who does not believe gods exist--would be unusual. HOWEVER, it's certainly possible to have someone acknowledge the existence the gods but not worship them. Perhaps they were in need and the gods did not answer their prayers, even though they've seen godly works elsewhere, and felt they were forsaken, so they forsake the gods. Perhaps they feel the gods manipulate mortals and want nothing to do with them. That would actually be a far more plausible and interesting character scenario for your typical D&D world where you have Avatars of gods walking around.

Someone else pointed out the athar from Planescape, who essentially acknolwedge the existence of the Powers, but think of them as really powerful mortals, not as "gods" worthy of worship.

As for the afterlife, I think in a standard world using the Wheel cosmology, if you worship no god, your soul simply travels to the plane with which your soul is most aligned; i.e., Chaotic Evil people would become Petitioners in the Abyss, Lawful Good people would petition on Celestia, etc.

Again, this is setting dependent. In the Forgotten Realms, those who refuse to worship the gods are actively punished in the afterlife--their souls get absorbed into a wall around the city of the god of the dead.

[FoE]

In Eberron, on the other hand, it's an open question whether the Gods exist, and clerics derive their spellcasting as much from belief as anything (or if the Gods are indeed the real deal, than when a cleric 'falls' another deity takes him up). Thus in such a setting, being an atheist in the classic sense is only a little more difficult than in the real world.

Serenity is on the money. In fact, the goblinoids of Eberron are largely atheist, and two of the major religions — the Blood of Vol and the Church of the Silver Flame — don't worship a deity so much as they worship a principle, ie. immortality in the case of the Blood of Vol, and the destruction of evil in the case of the Silver Flame.

[Mr. Friendly]

That's often bugged me: have none of the Good gods ever stopped and said "Hey, er, Kelemvor... Do you not think that's a bit harsh?"
By what justification is building a wall out off people's souls appropriate for a non-Evil character?

PS And it's the Faithless that get put in the Wall. I can't remember what happens to the False.

You're right; the False are tortured for all eternity. The Faithless get spackled.

I would say though with an atheist cleric, it would be at Kelemvor's whim as to whether you were False or Faithless. My personal inclination would be False though.

[Roderick_BR]

Short answer: You can not believe in deities with all those outsiders (demons, devils, angels, demigods, avatars) and clerics/paladins/druids, as much as you can not believe in magic with all these clerics, wizards, and magical beasts and mythologic monsters around.

At worst, a character can think that all magic is cast the same way, and that the gods doesn't grant powers (either because they don't exist, or don't want). But in most settings it is a laaaaarge stretch.

[kamikasei]

To the OP: yeah, there are a bunch of ways to be an atheist in D&D. You could, if you haven't much knowledge of / contact with the planes or more dramatic elements of religion generally, actually reject the existence of the beings churches claim to worship, as delusions or illusions or whatever (without the benefit of an outside view designating this or that piece of magic as "divine", I suspect the average inhabitant of a D&D world would have very little reason to say "well, he has to get his spellcasting from somewhere! - Unlike the wizard, or beguiler, or bard, or for that matter druid...").

You could say that the beings exist, but aren't gods, just powerful outsiders. Given how many powerful outsiders indeed aren't gods, and given that some of those have cults and may even grant spells, this is not a hard case to make.

You could be indifferent to the question of whether there are or are not "gods" in the world but have no inclination to worship them. This isn't quite atheism but is actually present in the books - various classes and/or races are described as having little religious inclination.

There are probably a few other ways to deviate from the "the gods are gods, and I should worship at least one of them" standard.

An atheist's afterlife, as Death Quaker and others have said, would presumably just consist of petitionerhood on the plane that matches their alignment. I wonder what that would be like? I mean, would you have a series of really awkward conversations with the local celestials? Or would you just kind of chill out and if some three-hundred-foot-tall dude in radiant armour attended by a flock of solars wanders past, roll your eyes and comment on the airs some people put on?

That's often bugged me: have none of the Good gods ever stopped and said "Hey, er, Kelemvor... Do you not think that's a bit harsh?"
By what justification is building a wall out off people's souls appropriate for a non-Evil character?

This is something I strongly dislike about FR, actually. It makes it hard to take gods of either a) good or b) justice very seriously.

I would say though with an atheist cleric, it would be at Kelemvor's whim as to whether you were False or Faithless. My personal inclination would be False though.

Whyso? (Note: not actually certain who "the False" are.)

[Runa]

Why is there so much fasination with the idea of Atheism in the D+D universe? I mean is the question really so interesting that we need a thread about it every 2 months? Not aiming this at you OP but to the board cause the threads die away pretty quickly.

You know, this website is popular enough that I believe it gets "newbies" all the time. I've been here several months actually, checking with sporadic frequency every week or two perhaps... and this is the first time I've caught a thread about "atheism in D&D". Perhaps that will provide some perspective on why it shows up so "often"? It probably just seems more often because you've seen it before.

Additionally, I can answer your question of "why the fascination with atheism in D&D?", I think:

Because we live in a world where atheism (as well as it's third cousin twice removed, agnosticism) is fairly common, yet where godly intervention, if it exists, is consistently indirect, subtle, etc. - the supernatural is so iffy a concept in our world, that it's not so weird that there are people that discount it entirely, even though such beliefs are far from universal.

D&D however, portrays worlds where the supernatural IS the natural, and more to the point, is common, ubiquitous, and very, very obvious. In other words, in order to study and understand the world around you, you need to study the very real supernatural, including creatures, spells, etc... and the so-called "deities". Just as people questioned the literal nature of "dragons" of the past legends, so too could people conceivably question the "divine" nature of what D&D calls deities... which are powerful beings, yes, but ones typically listed with actual limits. Can a being that is powerful but not all-powerful really be a "god"? Depends on your definition of the word. And if your definition says "no", then you're probably agnostic at best in that world, because theism of any type requires actual religious faith. If you don't treat divine magic or creatures as aspects of a religion, in terms of faith, but rather as subjects of scientific inquiry, then they aren't religious but simply mysterious, something to be explored and analyzed and nothing more.

But, there is always that pesky problem of the fact that the books always call them "deities".

As for your question about divine spellcasters proving that there are gods all the person needs to do is look around him. We have people who can cast spells because they read squiggly lines in a book, We have people who can cast spells because magic just naturally flows through their viens, and people who can cast spells because of their closeness to nature. Obviously the cleric is one of those who learned how to channel his powers in a slightly different way by using his holy symbol as a focus and his belief in his god as a channelling force. Doesn't mean that there is a god just that there are many ways to channel arcane powers.

True, true.

As for where they go I think they would go to whatever after life their Alignment dictated. There's no mention that only the followers of the gods get into whatever mix of hevean and hell they get depending on what alignment they are.

That might depend on how you run your game, though.

Wasn't there a somewhat atheistic cult in the Eberron setting, though? They believed the only divine was inside one's self. Sort of like a variation of some branches of modern-day, say, LeVeyan Satanism, if I'm not mistaken - a very independence-minded, somewhat subversive belief system with no actual central deity as a focus of worship. Which reminds me, I ought to remember to pick up that Faiths of Eberron book while I can still get it cheap. It had some fun stuff I wanted to make use of for a campaign...

-Runa

[Person_Man]

Atheist: "There are no gods!"

Cleric: "Really? Then I guess you don't need Torm's protection and healing. Good luck making it out of the dungeon alive."

And so forth.

An atheist in a world where gods literally grant special powers to there followers is literally delusional. (Though I suppose you could make the same argument about devout people in a world without empirical divine intervention - though let's avoid that so that the thread doesn't get locked down).

While its certainly possible for a DM to constuct a fantasy world without gods (objectivism), or a world where gods made everything and then walked away (deism), or even a world where there are no gods but mortals can rise to such power that they seem god like (Amber, Star Gate SG-1), that's simply not the case for most D&D settings.

[FoE]

Wasn't there a somewhat atheistic cult in the Eberron setting, though? They believed the only divine was inside one's self. Sort of like a variation of some branches of modern-day, say, LaVeyan Satanism, if I'm not mistaken - a very independence-minded, somewhat subversive belief system with no actual central deity as a focus of worship. Which reminds me, I ought to remember to pick up that Faiths of Eberron book while I can still get it cheap. It had some fun stuff I wanted to make use of for a campaign...

The Blood of Vol. The main goal of the cult is to transcend death. That's why undead are revered, because they have achieved a form of immortality. The religion is secretly directed by a lich queen.

[Wardog]

Atheist: "There are no gods!"

Cleric: "Really? Then I guess you don't need Torm's protection and healing. Good luck making it out of the dungeon alive."

Atheist: "Torm's protection? Don't you mean your protection? After all, while different, is doesn't seem fundamentally any powerfuller than that granted by our party's wizard - who, incidentally, I have seen blasting our enemies with fire and lightning far more often than any so-called god has."

[Morty]

That's often bugged me: have none of the Good gods ever stopped and said "Hey, er, Kelemvor... Do you not think that's a bit harsh?"
By what justification is building a wall out off people's souls appropriate for a non-Evil character?

PS And it's the Faithless that get put in the Wall. I can't remember what happens to the False.

Why should they? If faithless and false in faith suffer a horrible fate after death, it encourages mortals to serve gods faithfully.

[Mr. Friendly]

Whyso? (Note: not actually certain who "the False" are.)

The Faithless, those who denied faith or paid lip service to their god, all receive the same punishement: They form a living wall around the City of Judgement, tormented forever or at least until stolen by the tanar'ri; a fate many consider to be even worse.

The False, who betrayed a faith they believed in, remain in the City proper, there to be punished in accordance with their crime. It is whispered that mutilation, dismemberment and madness are but the sweetest tortures inflicted by Kelemvor's minions upon the False . . .

http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/Gods.htm

The reason I say he could be judged false is that the moment he goes before Kelemvor, he is facing a deity, he could in that moment essentially "betray" his beliefs.

More likely though, he just gets spackled for being faithless.

[Xuincherguixe]

How Shadowrun handles this issue, is that it's not entirely clear what things are. That Viking you just called from the halls of Valhalla might have been a brave warrior killed in battle 500 years ago, but it might just be something created out of the guys own mind.

Maybe Cthulhu speaks to you in your dreams, and as you grow more power you become more insane. Or maybe you're just going insane and "Cthulhu" is something your subconscious just made up.

And then you might bump into another person who also "hears the call" but what he "hears" is completely different. His Cthulhu might be a wise cracking ex cop with a chip on his shoulder.


So basically what I'm saying, you may well see something that looks like Zeus standing in front of you. It has tremendous power, and it fits everything people say about Zeus. But is it really Zeus, or the idea of Zeus? Maybe what you're experiencing is just a hallucination. Maybe Hallucinations can have power too.

[Talanic]

The spackling was Cyric, and probably Myrkul before him. Kelemvor discontinued that practice. For a while he tried to segment his realm, making a heaven for people he judged as good and a hell for those whom he judged as evil, but it started to tip the balance of the cosmos and he was forced to stop.

Apparently, now, he just lumps souls together with others of the same alignment.

[DeathQuaker]

Atheist: "Torm's protection? Don't you mean your protection? After all, while different, is doesn't seem fundamentally any powerfuller than that granted by our party's wizard - who, incidentally, I have seen blasting our enemies with fire and lightning far more often than any so-called god has."

*Torm appears, snaps his fingers, and atheist crumbles into ash. His soul becomes, as Mr. Friendly puts it, "spackle," and all essence of the atheist slowly and painfully ceases to exist entirely, forever.*

Sucks to live in a fantasy world, sometimes.