Why are there skill caps?

[Weiser_Cain]

I don't like them and I can't think of a good reason to have them.

[Solo]

I don't like them and I can't think of a good reason to have them.

I like them and I can.

[Bitzeralisis]

Yay! Baseless debate!

[Bauglir]

PrC qualifications and also people would be able to pull off truly ridiculous feats at level 1. The odd Int 18 Rogue with Skill Focus (jump) for whatever reason and Acrobatic as his Human Bonus Feat could jump 67 feet by taking 10 if he had no Strength bonus.

[Zincorium]

I don't like them and I can't think of a good reason to have them.

It's so people don't blow every point on a single skill and then ruin the game with it, diplomancing is a severe theoretical problem and removing skill caps would remove the 'theoretical'. There are a few other skills that require some limitation to be relevant, such as constitution.

So, limitations and diversity.

What are good reasons to not have them?

[Kizara]

It's so people don't blow every point on a single skill and then ruin the game with it, diplomancing is a severe theoretical problem and removing skill caps would remove the 'theoretical'. There are a few other skills that require some limitation to be relevant, such as constitution.

So, limitations and diversity.

What are good reasons to not have them?

Let's give another example:

52 Skill points (lvl 1 HU rogue). Let's pick a few things now.

We will skip the inherently broken social skills, as uses them to make the point isn't really saying alot.

How about spot? Monster has +10 to hide? Who cares, you have +54 to Spot. You can see invisibile things in poor lighting while being distracted and missing one eye. Yea, that's reasonable at level one.

Jump was done.

How about Open Lock? Ancient Door of the Eldar, locked with an intricate time-opened seal that is beyond the realm of mortal understanding? Let's give it DC 50, that's mildly epic. It's fine though, you have +56, so you succeed on a one.

Knowledge. Want to know everything there is to know about an epic dragon with 50 HD that hasn't been seen or heard of in a millenia? Well you DO! Knowledge (the planes) +56 is your friend.

I hope you get the point.

[Weiser_Cain]

It's so people don't blow every point on a single skill and then ruin the game with it, diplomancing is a severe theoretical problem and removing skill caps would remove the 'theoretical'. There are a few other skills that require some limitation to be relevant, such as constitution.

So, limitations and diversity.

What are good reasons to not have them?

child prodigy

[brian c]

child prodigy

Still, at first level you can get up to +4 (or even +5 with a racial bonus) from your ability, +4 ranks and +3 from skill focus. A +11 to any skill means that your best check is a 31, good enough to do mostly anything within normal human range abilities, particularly in fields like music (perform skills for a virtuoso are the best example as a child)

[Titanium Dragon]

child prodigy

The reason skill caps exist has already been clearly explained.

Fundamentally, your issue is with the system. With non-scaling skill costs this is the way it has to be.

If you don't like skill caps, then you need a system which enforces them other ways. A good example is GURPS. Costs 1 point to get 1 rank, 2 points to get 2 ranks, 4 points to get 3 ranks, 8 points to get 4 ranks, 16 points to get 5 ranks, ect. Alternity has hard skill caps at character creation but they otherwise don't exist, but it, likewise, has scaling (though nowhere near as steep as GURPS).

And child prodigies, incidentally, don't involve breaking of skill caps; they're simply higher level than people of their age.

[Nebo_]

child prodigy

Clearly, said child is not level 1.

Double ninja'd

[Overlord]

Let's give another example:

52 Skill points (lvl 1 HU rogue). Let's pick a few things now.

We will skip the inherently broken social skills, as uses them to make the point isn't really saying alot.

How about spot? Monster has +10 to hide? Who cares, you have +54 to Spot. You can see invisibile things in poor lighting while being distracted and missing one eye. Yea, that's reasonable at level one.

Jump was done.

How about Open Lock? Ancient Door of the Eldar, locked with an intricate time-opened seal that is beyond the realm of mortal understanding? Let's give it DC 50, that's mildly epic. It's fine though, you have +56, so you succeed on a one.

Knowledge. Want to know everything there is to know about an epic dragon with 50 HD that hasn't been seen or heard of in a millenia? Well you DO! Knowledge (the planes) +56 is your friend.

I hope you get the point.

Exactly. In addition, all of those problems would be literally multiplied by a hundred with a single feat: Leadership.

"Hello, I'm a 10th level Paladin with a 20 Charisma, a house, and a reputation for being nice (I am a paladin, after all). That gives me 35 1st level followers (not to mention my handful of higher level followers and my cohort). Let me introduce you to some of them. Say hello to Jump-Man, Spot-Man, Listen-Man, Search-Man, Disable Device-Man, Diplomacy-Man, Heal-Man, Survivorman, Gather Information-Man, Appraise-Man, Handle Animal-Man, Tumble-Man (He doubles as Perform-Man), Ride-Man, and Swim-Man. Gee, I really need to get rid of those last two. Oh yeah, I also have ten Knowledge-Men, who collectively know every Knowledge skill there is. All of these guys have at least a +52 bonus to whatever skill they're trained in. You should also say hi to my 4th level follower, Ninja-Man. He's got a +45 to Hide and Move Silently. Pretty cool, huh? And how can I forget my 8th level Cohort, Sensible-Man. He has a +140 to Sense Motive. He reads your mind on a roll of 1. Sweet!"

Let me add one final example: a 20th level Human Rogue, with a mere +6 Int modifier, and who has taken Skill Focus eight times, can have 369 ranks in whatever skill he chooses. That's insane.

[Tengu]

child prodigy

If you can play a child prodigy at first level, then I want to play a rich heir whose parents were both mages and crafted lots and lots of magical items for him when he decided to go adventuring.

[Kizara]

If you can play a child prodigy at first level, then I want to play a rich heir whose parents were both mages and crafted lots and lots of magical items for him when he decided to go adventuring.

I call son of a god, complete with Divine Rank 0, fairly massive ability mods and whatever SLA's I can think of.

Oh, level adjustment? "I don't like them and I can't think of a good reason to have them." GEGE

[Bitzeralisis]

Exactly. In addition, all of those problems would be literally multiplied by a hundred with a single feat: Leadership.

"Hello, I'm a 10th level Paladin with a 20 Charisma, a house, and a reputation for being nice (I am a paladin, after all). That gives me 35 1st level followers (not to mention my handful of higher level followers and my cohort). Let me introduce you to some of them. Say hello to Jump-Man, Spot-Man, Listen-Man, Search-Man, Disable Device-Man, Diplomacy-Man, Heal-Man, Survivorman, Gather Information-Man, Appraise-Man, Handle Animal-Man, Tumble-Man (He doubles as Perform-Man), Ride-Man, and Swim-Man. Gee, I really need to get rid of those last two. Oh yeah, I also have ten Knowledge-Men, who collectively know every Knowledge skill there is. All of these guys have at least a +52 bonus to whatever skill they're trained in. You should also say hi to my 4th level follower, Ninja-Man. He's got a +45 to Hide and Move Silently. Pretty cool, huh? And how can I forget my 8th level Cohort, Sensible-Man. He has a +140 to Sense Motive. He reads your mind on a roll of 1. Sweet!"

Let me add one final example: a 20th level Human Rogue, with a mere +6 Int modifier, and who has taken Skill Focus eight times, can have 369 ranks in whatever skill he chooses. That's insane.

That is hilarious. :smallneutral: :smallspeechless: :smallellipsisgod!:

[TheOOB]

If you really have a problem with skill caps you can raise them with feats.

Prodigy[General]
You are particularity adept with a certain skill
Prerequisites: Can only be taken at 1st level
Benefit: Choose a single skill, you're max ranks in that skill is equal to 5+character level. In addition you receive two free ranks in the chosen skill.
Normal: Your max ranks in all skills is 3+character level.

[serow]

child prodigy

Skill Focus (whatever)?

[Jack Zander]

How about some ranks in UMD for uber cheese?

Seriously, have you thought at all about why skill caps are in the game or do you just like to WoW your way around the roleplaying table?

[Artemician]

How about some ranks in UMD for uber cheese?

Seriously, have you thought at all about why skill caps are in the game or do you just like to WoW your way around the roleplaying table?

WoW has skill caps. Hard-coded into the system, in fact.

Although I do agree with the general sentiment.

[Xuincherguixe]

Obviously this is some kind of massive conspiracy against child prodigies.

[The Professor]

If you really have a problem with skill caps you can raise them with feats.

Prodigy[General]
You are particularity adept with a certain skill
Prerequisites: Can only be taken at 1st level
Benefit: Choose a single skill, you're max ranks in that skill is equal to 5+character level. In addition you receive two free ranks in the chosen skill.
Normal: Your max ranks in all skills is 3+character level.

I think that's a really cool feat, actually. The problem, of course, is that it makes you qualify for PrCs WAY too early. A good DM wouldn't let that fly. I might steal this at some point, and you can't stop me, because it's the internet.

[Overlord]

That is hilarious. :smallneutral: :smallspeechless: :smallellipsisgod!:

Consider a 20th level Expert Lawyer with 369 ranks in Profession: Lawyer:

"...So that, your honor, is why the defendant is the cause of every evil action that has ever taken place in the entire history of the world, and why my client deserves to be awarded 18.3 billion gold pieces in damages."

WoW has skill caps. Hard-coded into the system, in fact.

And what do D&D and WoW have in common? The rules in both systems were written for a reason. Not necessarily good reasons, mind you, but reasons nonetheless. Sometimes those rules end up being flawed; sometimes they end up being useful. There's certainly nothing wrong with poking around with the rules to see if you can't think of something better. It's just that in this case, practically everyone is in agreement that the skill point caps are necessary to curb the skill-monkeys' power.

[Artemician]

And what do D&D and WoW have in common? The rules in both systems were written for a reason. Not necessarily good reasons, mind you, but reasons nonetheless. Sometimes those rules end up being flawed; sometimes they end up being useful. There's certainly nothing wrong with poking around with the rules to see if you can't think of something better. It's just that in this case, practically everyone is in agreement that the skill point caps are necessary to curb the skill-monkeys' power.

The WoW comment was never directed at the respective merits of any rule. It was simply to address Jack Zander, when he said that the OP wanted to "WoW his way around the table". In this case, that makes no sense, because WoW uses skill caps as well.

[Dhavaer]

child prodigy

Take the Prodigy ability from DMG2.

[Cuddly]

Consider a 20th level Expert Lawyer with 369 ranks in Profession: Lawyer:

"...So that, your honor, is why the defendant is the cause of every evil action that has ever taken place in the entire history of the world, and why my client deserves to be awarded 18.3 billion gold pieces in damages."

Yeah, but that's canceled out by the guy with 369 ranks in whatever skill defeats lawyer.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's an opposed check.

Plus, that's not unbalanced, as he has no ranks in bluff.

[Behold_the_Void]

The issue people have been dancing around is skill caps exist so it's possible to have characters with varied skill selections and to have the ability to set (allegedly) reasonable skill check DCs that can be tailored to a party's level.

[warmachine]

Can someone show the maths of how a 1st level follower without skill caps can get +52 to one skill?

[SerroMaroo]

umm, lvl 1 human rogue, Int +3 (easily attainable 16-17 int)

Rogue gets Int bonus ((3)+8)X4 skill points at 1st level, and another 9 for being human

Total points available is 48

Feat skill focus +2

Any int based skill +2 for previously mentioned int bonus

Total 52 Not even using anything fancy

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Skill focus is +3, and there's usually a second feat that boosts 2 skills by +2.

[Kizara]

Can someone show the maths of how a 1st level follower without skill caps can get +52 to one skill?

As I said in my post, my example character was an 18 int human rogue. Thus, 13x4=52

That is only the ranks, not including the key ability mod for the skill in question.

It also doesn't take into account skill boosting feats.

You could, with very little work get +61 under this 'system':

52 ranks + 4 key ability mod + 3 skill focus + 2 (skill booster feat such as Alertness)


Now, a COMMONER only has 2+int skills (I believe), so that's obviously not nearly as high. Also, even using the elite array, you are only going to have like a 15 int and maybe a 14 in your key ability mod, so its drastically less.

Thus, 24 + 2 (key ability) + 5 (skill feats) would net only a +31.

However, your leadership followers would be experts, not commoners, having 6+int skills (IIRC) and thus more points.

You get the idea I hope.