Are Sudden Metamagics useful?

[Tempest Fennac]

Are Sudden Metamagic feats worthwhile for casters? While the fact that they can only be used once a day is a problem, I would have thought that being able to use them when necessary (and the fact that they don't use higher level spell slots) would be really useful.

[Chrismith]

Not really, in my opinion you'd be better off just buying a metamagic rod: you get three uses per day instead of one, and it doesn't cost you a feat.

[Starbuck_II]

You can only use 1 metamagic wand at the same time.

You can use as many Suddens as you have.

Metamagic wands (some) are very expensive; others are not that bad in price versus ability.

Suddens are usually better at low levels when can't afford a spell slot increase. Though, they still help at higher levels lose a littlew impact.

[Saph]

Sudden Extend and Sudden Maximise are good.

Sudden Extend is probably the best no-prerequisite metamagic feat for a low-level caster. It stays useful as you go up levels, as you can keep applying it on your highest-level spells (like Greater and Superior Resistance, and your hours/day buffs).

Sudden Maximise is even better, but requires another metamagic feat as a prerequisite. Very nice at all levels, especially if you combine it with a metamagic rod at the same time.

Sudden Silent is probably a waste. Sudden Still could get you out of a grapple, but there are better ways. Sudden Empower is nice, but not quite as good as Sudden Maximise, and Sudden Quicken has a ridiculous prerequisite list.

- Saph

[Person_Man]

If your DMs are fond of 4+ combat encounters per game day, as mine are, then they're pretty pointless.

But plenty of DMs only have 1-2 combat encounters per game day, and if that's the case, sudden metamagic can be wildly useful.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for telling me (I'm guessing that Rods are better overall if you can afford them).

[Saph]

They are, but they get expensive fast, and juggling them in combat can be a nuisance (remember that they take a move action to draw, and then another move action to put away, and you need to keep one hand free to do somatic components).

- Saph

[Squash Monster]

Being able to do it at will is nice, but being able to do it without cost is the important part.

And for that part, you can do better. Take a look at Metamagic School Focus from Complete Mage. That lets you reduce metamagic cost by one for three spells, provided they're in your chosen school.

To compare, let's take a look at Sudden Extend vs Metamagic School Focus: Transmutation.

With Sudden Extend, I get to choose one spell, any school, at any time, and extend it. With Metamagic School Focus, I get to choose three Transmutation spells and extend them for free. Additionally, I could use MSF for heighten or whatever else seems appropriate. Any day that you use your Sudden Extend on one of those three spells you picked for MSF, MSF is strictly better. If you choose wisely, that will be most days.

[Chronos]

Sudden Silent is probably a waste. Sudden Still could get you out of a grapple, but there are better ways.

On the other hand, Sudden Silent would save you from a Silence spell, which would otherwise be rather a nuissance for spellcasters. Again, there are other ways around this, but not as many as for getting out of grapples (or for not getting into grapples in the first place).

[Saph]

On the other hand, Sudden Silent would save you from a Silence spell, which would otherwise be rather a nuissance for spellcasters. Again, there are other ways around this, but not as many as for getting out of grapples (or for not getting into grapples in the first place).

True, but there are more monsters with Improved Grab than there are with silence-type abilities. I don't see silence cast on parties very often, but PCs seem to get grappled practically every session.

- Saph

[Kyeudo]

To the OP, it depends on the level your at and the circumstances of the game. See here for an example of how they can be useful.

[Frosty]

I wonder if it would be overpowered to change Sudden metamagic feats to work like this:

For example, when you take a Sudden <metamagic> feat, you gain x Sudden charges per day, where x is equal to the metmagic level adjustment. Like, if you take Sudden Still, you'd gain 1 charge which refreshes every day. If later on you take Sudden Maximize, you would gain 3 per day, for a total of 4 per day. And whenever you want to use a Sudden metamagic feat, you'd spend a number of Sudden charges equal to the meta-level adjustment. So, with Sudden Maximize and Sudden Still, you can either do Sudden Still 4 times per day or Sudden Maximize once and Sudden Still once. You can take a Sudden Feat multiple times to gain extra Sudden charges.

In this way, Sudden metamagic becomes kind of like the spell-point system. You can mix and match instead of just having 1/day for everything. You have options.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Only in theoretical discussions like the 'unbeatable' Contingency Celerity using the action to cast Sudden Maximized Time Stop for four actions as soon as you attempt to sneeze in my general direction. Realistically, Sudden Metamagic feats only happen once a day. Not too useful.

re: Sudden Still. Get a Ring of Freedom of Movement already. Immunity to grapple, have a nice day.

To be honest, like was said before, Sudden Empower and Sudden maximize are the two best. Why? Because they give you the most 'bang for your buck'. Still and silent are only +1, not too big. Empower and Maximize, on the other hand, give you much better value. And who doesn't have Silent Dispel Magic saved back for a pesky Silence effect (or just a silent dimension Door to get out of the area effect, since it's NOT going to land on the mage).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Silent Dimension Door is awesome. No components whatsoever, gets you out of the area of any effect. I like.

[Chronos]

True, but there are more monsters with Improved Grab than there are with silence-type abilities. I don't see silence cast on parties very often, but PCs seem to get grappled practically every session.

Must be a difference in gaming groups. The games I've been in, humanoids with class levels are the most common enemies, and every cleric of 3rd level or higher who's fighting spellcasters leads off with a Silence in the first round.

(or just a silent dimension Door to get out of the area effect, since it's NOT going to land on the mage).

Not necessarily. One of my favorite tactics is to cast Silence on a small object (say, a burr, or something with a dab of Sovreign Glue on it) that you then stick to the spellcaster with a touch attack. I'm sure that an enemy spellcaster has a pretty good Will save, but I'm betting that his touch AC isn't nearly as good.

[FlyMolo]

To the OP, it depends on the level your at and the circumstances of the game. See here for an example of how they can be useful.

Hah, I was going to mention this. Yeah, Sudden Maximize is really good in level1 battles. Especially if you only have to do it once/day anyway.

But that seems like a particularly specific set of circumstances. I would take a Sudden or two in your inital levels as a caster, then later retrain them for actual meta-magic. Metamagic=win, and even limited access to it is really good.

[Jerthanis]

I find they're generally more useful than the feats they're based on. They may not be as good as having the appropriate metamagic rod, but they do in a pinch.

Sudden Maximize practically justifies Fireball on its own (a spell almost universally poo-pooed for its weak average damage). A sudden-maxed fireball will practically clear a room of equal leveled Clerics through 10th level... A sudden-empowered Enervation is a possible 6 negative levels at level 7, and the advantage of these feats as you level up is not that you gain extra uses of them, but you can continue to apply them to your highest level spells. You could Sudden Maximize Summon Nature's Ally 7 to get three Dire Bears automatically, or Sudden Empower a... well... I can't actually think of something better to Sudden Empower than Enervation for a long time.

Basically, my position is that the limitation of the Suddens being 1/day is more than countered by the fact that you can use them on your highest level spells to maximize your saves, and conserve high-level spell slots. The only exception might be Extend, which you often want to put 3 or 4 buffs into to last all day, but that's probably the easiest to regulate to Metamagic Rods anyway, and Quicken, of which the Sudden version requires too many feats to really be feasible any time before 15th level or something. Some Suddens, like Silent and Still, might not be terribly useful in any case, but I maintain that they are still more useful than the feats they're based on.

I've seen some in action and have not found them wanting.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Must be a difference in gaming groups. The games I've been in, humanoids with class levels are the most common enemies, and every cleric of 3rd level or higher who's fighting spellcasters leads off with a Silence in the first round.

Not necessarily. One of my favorite tactics is to cast Silence on a small object (say, a burr, or something with a dab of Sovreign Glue on it) that you then stick to the spellcaster with a touch attack. I'm sure that an enemy spellcaster has a pretty good Will save, but I'm betting that his touch AC isn't nearly as good.

oh yes...the sticky bomb of death...many a fun spells are cast on objects that are then stuck to people or planted on them somehow...

[kme]

They are, but they get expensive fast, and juggling them in combat can be a nuisance (remember that they take a move action to draw, and then another move action to put away, and you need to keep one hand free to do somatic components).

- Saph

I am too lazy to check now, but I think that you don't have to hold metamagic rods to use them, you only need to have them on you. But I may be wrong of course.

[UserClone]

A thought for all you metamagic-rod-jugglers: Keep em' in a wand bracelet (MIC). That way you don't have to fumble about for the correct one in mid-battle. More than worth it.

[Curmudgeon]

Sudden metamagic feats continue to be useful at higher levels, because they keep your metamagic from pushing spells past 9th level. Let's take Control Weather as an example. A Druid using both Maximize Spell and Widen Spell would normally make this require a 13th level slot, but Sudden Maximize and Sudden Widen would make the combination feasible at level 13. A 4-day duration and a 12-mile diameter for Control Weather means you're always in pleasant conditions, but it's a constant miserable fight against the elements for any enemies either approaching you, or being approached by you. And, because you've changed an uncertain duration into something predictable, you've freed up these two feats for other uses 3 days out of 4.

A thought for all you metamagic-rod-jugglers: Keep em' in a wand bracelet (MIC). That way you don't have to fumble about for the correct one in mid-battle. More than worth it.

Whatever gave you the idea that this would possibly work? A Wand Bracelet can't hold anything heavier than 3 pounds.

Physical Description

A typical wand is 6 inches to 12 inches long and about ¼ inch thick, and often weighs no more than 1 ounce.

Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds.

[Tokiko Mima]

Actually, the best feat I can think of for heavy Rod users is Quick Draw. Then you can pull out all your Metamagic Rods as free actions, so you still have a full round to burn instead of just a standard action.

Remember that you can only use one rod on any single spell, so Sudden Metamagic stuff is useful for pulling off a Maximized Empowered Fireball when you only have Fireball prepared.

Personally, I house rule it so you gain a use per encounter instead of just once per day. It makes them actually pretty worthwhile, but them that works for a lot of sub-par once/day stuff. I also like to make wizards take the sorcerer metamagic casting time penalty when using Rods or Sudden Feats because I think that's fair since they are reworking a prepared spell into something else.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I also like to make wizards take the sorcerer metamagic casting time penalty when using Rods or Sudden Feats because I think that's fair since they are reworking a prepared spell into something else.

So you explicitly create a disadvantage for Wizard's using Sudden Feats?

Also, sign me up for Sudden Extend and a bag of rats. I would like to commence battle with Rat A, Sudden Extend Elemental Body, Rat B, Sudden Extend Greater Magic Weapon on Fighter's Sword, ect.

[AmberVael]

So you explicitly create a disadvantage for Wizard's using Sudden Feats?

Also, sign me up for Sudden Extend and a bag of rats. I would like to commence battle with Rat A, Sudden Extend Elemental Body, Rat B, Sudden Extend Greater Magic Weapon on Fighter's Sword, ect.

...could you possibly explain to me what a bag of rats has to do with using Sudden Extend multiple times per day, and casting more than one spell per turn? I'm afraid I'm just a wee bit confused by your logic here.

[Chronos]

It confused me for a moment, too. He's talking about making the sudden metamagic feats 1/encounter, instead of 1/day. Before any "real" encounter begins, he's going to have a whole bunch of encounters with rats, to put a free extend on all the buffs he casts.

[Aquillion]

They are, but they get expensive fast, and juggling them in combat can be a nuisance (remember that they take a move action to draw, and then another move action to put away, and you need to keep one hand free to do somatic components).

Don't forget, though, that you can draw weapons or wands as part of a regular move action as long as your BAB is at least +1.

You can't sheathe them this way, but as long as you don't expect to have to run you can just drop them (or other things) as a free action.

It confused me for a moment, too. He's talking about making the sudden metamagic feats 1/encounter, instead of 1/day. Before any "real" encounter begins, he's going to have a whole bunch of encounters with rats, to put a free extend on all the buffs he casts.

Solution: Make it so if you use a sudden metamagic on something with a duration, you can't recover it until the effect is over. And, uh, if it's used for healing or something else that grants obvious long-term advantage, you don't get it back for the rest of the day... well, alright, so it's not so simple, but it could be done.

[Talic]

Sudden feats are very useful at low levels. Not so much at high, when treasure allows you to afford Rings of Freedom of Movement and metamagic rods.

If your DM allows Retraining, they're quite useful early on. If not, not so much. Even so, Sudden maximized ray of enfeeblement is a fight ender at low levels, if the target is armored... Or on a horse that is.

I've actually used this to put a mounted rider charging me... well, his horse went over max encumbrance and collapsed under his rider's weight. Sudden max, sudden empower ftw, then. Later I retrained them out for school focuses, I believe.

[AmberVael]

It confused me for a moment, too. He's talking about making the sudden metamagic feats 1/encounter, instead of 1/day. Before any "real" encounter begins, he's going to have a whole bunch of encounters with rats, to put a free extend on all the buffs he casts.

Now that makes more sense.

[Tokiko Mima]

So you explicitly create a disadvantage for Wizard's using Sudden Feats?

Yeah, exactly. Wizards have enough advantages. If they're going to spontaneously apply Metamagic feats to their spells, then they should have the same casting time penalty Sorcerers have when they spontaneously apply metamagic feats to their spells.

Note that per RAW, Wizards using Metamagic rods do NOT increase their casting times on spells, while Sorcerers *do.* I'm just levelling the playing field with houserules, that's all. They can still prepare metamagic without penalty.

Also, sign me up for Sudden Extend and a bag of rats. I would like to commence battle with Rat A, Sudden Extend Elemental Body, Rat B, Sudden Extend Greater Magic Weapon on Fighter's Sword, ect.

If you could generate encounters on your own, then that would work. But a bag of rats won't generate any encounter XP/rewards for you, and the DM didn't assign it as an encounter either.

Secondly... both of those spells you mentioned last hours/level. By the time you can cast Elemental Body (7th-level spell SpC) it's base duration is 13 hours minimum, and probably more if you've increased your caster level even a little. What do you need to extend those spells for? Pulling an all-nighter?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Yeah, exactly. Wizards have enough advantages. If they're going to spontaneously apply Metamagic feats to their spells, then they should have the same casting time penalty Sorcerers have when they spontaneously apply metamagic feats to their spells.

Note that per RAW, Wizards using Metamagic rods do NOT increase their casting times on spells, while Sorcerers *do.* I'm just levelling the playing field with houserules, that's all. They can still prepare metamagic without penalty.

My point was that you are leveling the wrong playing field. You are slanting it in favor of regular metamagic over sudden, when sudden is already inferior.

Also not that your weird counter balance system makes Sorcerers more likely to take Sudden, and Wizards will continue to take real metamagic, which encourages they continuation of Sorcerers having more inferior option compared to Wizards fewer better ones. But in D&D that already makes Wizards better, you are just further encouraging Sorcerer players to choose inferiority.

If you could generate encounters on your own, then that would work. But a bag of rats won't generate any encounter XP/rewards for you, and the DM didn't assign it as an encounter either.

Any encounter is an encounter, whether the DM "assigned" it as one or not. therefore, the "encounter" gives you a free extend. That's why all good "per encounter" mechanics have a recharge time like maneuvers, or a factotums inspiration. Because an encounter is an encounter, and there is no way the DM can stop someone from creating encounters that present no threat.

Secondly... both of those spells you mentioned last hours/level. By the time you can cast Elemental Body (7th-level spell SpC) it's base duration is 13 hours minimum, and probably more if you've increased your caster level even a little. What do you need to extend those spells for? Pulling an all-nighter?

So then you aren't familiar with the concept of casting extended hour per-level spells right before you rest, replenish spells and then run the day with all your buffs and all your spell slots? And do you really never have a day that lasts longer then 13 hours?