Most powerful Enervation...

[Talic]

What's the most levels you can get on an enervation? Any WotC source approved, assume all dice rolled are averaged, round down. Been fiddling with a concept, but I'm having trouble getting all the metamagic to mesh.

EDIT: Start at ECL 12, but plan up to 20.

[Kurald Galain]

Something like an empowered maximized twinned split ray enervation.

Probably reuqires arcane thesis, practical metamagic, and incantatrix to get the spell level in the single digits again.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Well just for starters, We are talking Wizard 5/Incantatrix X/PrC X as a general base:

Needed feats are Arcane Thesis, Empower, Maximize, Split, Twin, Chain, Not Quicken since it's single Enervation instead of per round.

Other Feats that can be useful, Iron Will, Metamagic School Focus, Easy Metamagic? not included in this build because I don't know the specifics on it.

Metamagic reducers: Invisible Spell, Sanctum Spell,

Feats for Human Wizard:
lvl 1: Sudden Empower Spell
Human Bonus: Iron Will
Flaw: Sudden Maximize Spell
Flaw: Split Ray
lvl 3: Twin Spell
lvl 5: Chain Spell
lvl 6: Metamagic School Focus
lvl 6: Sanctum Spell
lvl 9: Arcane Thesis (Enervation)
lvl 9: Invisible Spell
lvl 12: Something Else
lvl 12: Something Else

At level 12, Incantatrix 7 grants a single free metamagic usage, apply to Twin.

Split and Chain are reduced by one via Metamagic School Focus, and again by Arcane Thesis, Invisible and Sanctum are -2 more. Everything Else is free:

Four rays that can each chain to caster level targets and deliver 5 negative levels each (as per your rounding rules). 20 levels for caster level targets in one spell as a fourth level spell. This can obviously done more often with real metamagic instead of sudden, and using higher level reductions (Incantatrix level 10, more +0 Metamagic feats)

In addition, adding Quicken to the mix can result in more negative levels per round, so can Imbuing your Familiar with this fourth level spell. Using your rounding/assumed die rolls it can be made to create (at level 20) 16 rays doing 5 negative levels chained across caster level targets.

[Talic]

I'd like this guy to be able to move. Sanctum spell is kinda limiting. Otherwise, everything is great there. What's the verdict without NPC only feats and classes?

(I call sanctum spell an NPC only because it has very limited usefulness to an adventuring party).

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You can't chain rays, people. They are rays-NOT targetted spells. Also, you can't reduce the spell level adjustment of a metamagic feat to less than 1 (I think)

[Arbitrarity]

Arcane thesis metnions decreasing the spell level adjustment of each metamagic by 1, with no minimum cap.

However, I explicitly recall examples in the FAQ where they show a arcane thesis'ed, silenced, stilled, empowered fireball being 6'th level or somesuch.

[Animefunkmaster]

I'd like this guy to be able to move. Sanctum spell is kinda limiting. Otherwise, everything is great there. What's the verdict without NPC only feats and classes?

(I call sanctum spell an NPC only because it has very limited usefulness to an adventuring party).

I believe he is talking about using sanctum spell in an area outside one's sanctum.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) Sanctum spell doesn't actually hurt Enervation at all, it is only there as a metamagic reducer. It can also be replaced by any other +0 Metamagic feat applied to the spell, for example Black Lore Moil.

2) Metamagic feats can be reduced to 0 or -1 with Arcane Thesis. Most DMs would probably houserule something for Arcane Thesis.

3) Arcane Thesis as originally written was so broken it maybe WotC cry. They FAQ nerfed it (IE made things up and tried to use the FAQ to errata) by saying that Arcane Thesis only reduces 1 metamagic effect per spell, this, were it true would make it about as outclassed as toughness, compare that interpretation to any other metamagic reduction feat in the game and it would suck.

Later on, months after Arcane Thesis had been discussed in depth on Char Op (therefore, probably WotC knew what people where saying), errata for the PHB II came out, including Arcane Thesis. The errata did not add in a minimum level as is included in every other reduction mechanism since 3.5s introduction, implying that they intended it to be without one due to it's limited nature. Nor did it change it's application from a per-metamagic feat basis. (If you argue that Arcane thesis only applies once per spell, you have to argue that so does Incantatrix, since they have the same wording except for the +1 min.)

The only change is that a spell can not be reduced below it's original level (note, not a metamagic feat, only the total spell.)

Therefore, Arcane Thesis reduces spell levels considerably when applying metamagic.

4) If you want to argue that spell that create effects on targets (rather then creating static effects) don't have targets, be my guest. Some DMs don't see it that way. If presented with a DM that says no, take that effect off, not a big deal.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Okay, so I decided to see what the minimum level/build is for the full 16 rays.

Feats:
lvl 1: Empower
Human: Maximize
Flaw: Iron Will
Flaw: Quicken
3rd: Split Ray
6th: Twin
6th: Chain
9th: Arcane Thesis
9th: Sanctum Spell
12th: Metamagic School Focus
12th: Invisible Spell
15th: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
15th: Black Lore Moil

Level 15 is the minimum I am going for because I believe that one needs the Incantatrix capstone reduction.

As things stand, all metamagics receive -2 to spell level adjustment not taking into account caps.

We also have Metamagic School Focus to reduce by one Maximize for all but one of the spells cast that round. We also have two free effects to apply (let's just say both Quickens.)

So we have 1 spell:
Maximize +0, Empower +0, Split Ray +0, Twin +2, Chain +1, Invisible -1, Black Lore Moil -1, Sanctum -1 = 4th level spell.

2 spells:
Maximize +0, Empower +0, Split Ray +0, Quicken +0, Twin +2, Chain +1, Invisible -1, Sanctum -1, Black Lore Moil -1 = 4th level spell.

1 spell:
Maximize +1, Empower +0, Split Ray +0, Twin +2, Chain +1, Invisible -1, Sanctum -1, Black Lore Moil -1 = 5th level spell.

So after imbuing your familiar with two fourth level spells, as per Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, you now can fire off 16 rays that do 4+(1d4/2) negative levels, and are possibly chained across up to 15-20 targets.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I believe arcane Thesis was errataed so ta the minimum level it could reduce a spell to was +1.

[ColdBrew]

Made this for a D&D tournament, very restricted sources and magic item availability. Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, and PHB only. No MM rods. Basically, he wins in the first round or he's gone. Through a combination of feats, domains, and Divine Metamagic, he can pop off a Twinned Maximized Split-Ray Enervation for 16 negative levels with 2 touch attacks, no save, as a Cleric 10/Contemplative 2. I can post the full build details if anyone's interested.

edit: Oh, the things I could have done if Arcane Thesis was allowed...

[Chronos]

You could arguably add Fell Drain, too (depending on what counts as "damage"), but that would only be one more negative level. Still, if we get to a level where we have an extra feat to burn, it'd be good for setting the record.

For the per-round record, you could also use Ocular Spell to fire off an extra spell (with all of its attached metamagics) in one round. The downside is that it isn't compatible with Chain Spell.

[Abstruse]

Feats for Human Wizard:
lvl 1: Sudden Empower Spell
Human Bonus: Iron Will
Flaw: Sudden Maximize Spell

I see one flaw in your feat build straight off the bat. Sudden Empower Spell and Sudden Maximize Spell both require a metamagic feat as a prerequisite.

[Nebo_]

I believe arcane Thesis was errataed so ta the minimum level it could reduce a spell to was +1.

Perhaps you should actually read the rest of the thread. This was already covered and you are wrong.

[RTGoodman]

I see one flaw in your feat build straight off the bat. Sudden Empower Spell and Sudden Maximize Spell both require a metamagic feat as a prerequisite.

Look down one more feat on that list you quoted - he took a flaw to get Quicken, which is a metamagic feat. As long as he takes all of those at one time, it's fine.



Also, I don't remember where it's from, but you might be able to work in Repeat Spell. I think it's a +3 spell level, but you can reduce most of that away or you may be able to get a Metamagic Rod (Repeat) or something like that. I'd say that's pretty decent for the whole thing going off again the next round.

[Paul H]

Hi

12 is the max lost levels from Enervation. It's a ray, with crit threat nat 20, x2Normally 4 levels, but Empowered and crit is 12 levels.

Theoretically,a Spellsword could crit with an Enervating weapon with Empowered Enervation stored in it for a max 13 levels.

Played a Living Greyhawk scenario at a recent convention & got critted for 7 of my 9 levels!.

Very nasty!

Cheers
Paul H

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

1) My build: There are two separate ones, you were looking at different ones, however, because we are starting at level 12, it is easy to switch the order round to take a meta feat that doesn't have another one as a pre req.

2) As for suggestions, all good.

Fell Drain: As you said, depends on damage interpretation, though note that with Black Lore Moil you can make your Enervation do X negative levels +1d6 Negative Energy Damage, so that could still work.

Ocular Spell: What is the action to fire it? And that could also be shared over to familiar giving you six spells cast in one round.

Repeat Spell: Excellent Idea, though what is the usefulness of that feat? I had always believed that with a ray spell you are forced to fire at the same place next round, making it essentially useless against anything that can still move. Either way, it works for this exercise.

3) @ Paul H did you decide not to read the thread, we already have several examples of Enervations that do more then 12 Negative Levels, also note that rules where given for assuming a 2 came up on every die rolled.

[bugsysservant]

Something I've always wondered: does sneak attack work with negative levels/ability damage/ability drain/whatever, or just straight up damage? I would guess the latter, but I seem to recall someone mentioning that it could do more than that. If so, than a rogue 13/wizard 7 could arguably do something like 27 negative levels without any optimization whatsoever.

[martyboy74]

The spell does negative levels, and the sneak attack damage is dealt as negative energy damage.

[Job]

Build looks good by RAW, or should I say RAITAYCPIWN (The Rules As I Interpret Them And You Can't Prove I'm Wrong, Nyeah)

[Swiftblu]

Something I've always wondered: does sneak attack work with negative levels/ability damage/ability drain/whatever, or just straight up damage? I would guess the latter, but I seem to recall someone mentioning that it could do more than that. If so, than a rogue 13/wizard 7 could arguably do something like 27 negative levels without any optimization whatsoever.

Sneak Attack deals untyped damage if you are dealing hit point damage of any kind (energy, weapon, etc.) and nonlethal damage if your damage source deals nonlethal damage. It doesn't apply in any other circumstance.

However, that's only if you interpret the mentions of 'damage' in the text as only including hit point damage, which is by far the most balanced (and common, to my experience) interpretation. This also leads into the debate about Shadows and the like taking Weapon Specialization (Incorporeal Touch) and dealing 2 extra strength damage.

Fluff-wise, Sneak Attack represents placing an attack on a vital point on a target's body; this is why the damage isn't multiplied on a critical and why it only applies out to 30 feet. An enervation is an enervation regardless of where or how you hit them, so it doesn't apply.

I'm not sure if this was errata'd. I don't think so.

EDIT - Ninja'd by someone who read the errata. Where was it?

[Chronos]

Ocular Spell: What is the action to fire it? And that could also be shared over to familiar giving you six spells cast in one round.

Ocular SpellYou apply the metamagic to two spells, and store one of them in each of your eyes. As a full-round action, you can fire off both. I'm not sure exactly how it'd interact with a familiar; arguably, you might be able to cast the spells into your familiar's eyes instead of your own, without needing to use Imbue Familiar with Spellcasting or the like.

[RTGoodman]

Repeat Spell: Excellent Idea, though what is the usefulness of that feat? I had always believed that with a ray spell you are forced to fire at the same place next round, making it essentially useless against anything that can still move. Either way, it works for this exercise.

I just looked it up to check, and for a ranged target it says:

If the original spell designates a ranged target, the repeated spell affects the same target if it is within 30 feet of its original position; otherwise, the second spell fails.

So as long as you or your uber-tripper Fighter buddy can keep them within 30 feet of where they started, you're fine. However, the last line of the feet confuses me - "Touch range spells cannot be affected by this feat." Does this mean that ranged touch spells can't be used, or just normal touch spells? Because the whole thing is ruined if ranged touch spells don't count.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Build looks good by RAW, or should I say RAITAYCPIWN (The Rules As I Interpret Them And You Can't Prove I'm Wrong, Nyeah)

Oh good, just what I needed. A "Practical Optimization" Proponent who dedicates an entire post to informing me, through a rather insulting manner that might have been witty if it weren't blatantly copied, that I'm making things up not reflected in the rules. So helpful.

[Chronos]

However, the last line of the feet confuses me - "Touch range spells cannot be affected by this feat." Does this mean that ranged touch spells can't be used, or just normal touch spells? Because the whole thing is ruined if ranged touch spells don't count.

It says "touch range" there, not "ranged touch". A "touch range" spell is a spell that says "touch" in the range entry, like Inflict Light Wounds. Enervation doesn't have a range of "touch", it has a range of "close", so it works fine.

[Talic]

It says "touch range" there, not "ranged touch". A "touch range" spell is a spell that says "touch" in the range entry, like Inflict Light Wounds. Enervation doesn't have a range of "touch", it has a range of "close", so it works fine.

The original spell does not designate a ranged target. Examples of this would be, for example, Magic Missile. If you make an attack roll, the spell doesn't target. Rays make an attack roll. Thus, rays don't target.

As for the "I believe that level 15 is the blah blah..." There's a reason I use 12. It's high power, but it's not so close to 20, that only a handful of the epic power games can use it. Also, if it takes until level 15 to get your build doing something, then you're doing something wrong.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

@ Talic, both of your paragraphs seem to be aimed at ?me? Either way neither is aimed at Chronos who you actually quoted.

The original spell does not designate a ranged target. Examples of this would be, for example, Magic Missile. If you make an attack roll, the spell doesn't target. Rays make an attack roll. Thus, rays don't target.

I'm going to assume this is in reference to Chaining. I already addressed this, if your DM doesn't think that Chain works on rays, drop that part. But if your DM treats any spell that effects a target as a targeted spell use it, I'm not saying OMGUMUSTUSECHAIN!!!!111!!!ONE1!!!

As for the "I believe that level 15 is the blah blah..." There's a reason I use 12. It's high power, but it's not so close to 20, that only a handful of the epic power games can use it. Also, if it takes until level 15 to get your build doing something, then you're doing something wrong.

I already gave you a build that produced an incredible number of negative levels at level 12. I then proceed to attempt to create a build that Produced the theoretical maximum number of negative levels. Do you think a Level 12 Fighter could produce more damage in a round then a level 20? No.

When striving for a theoretical maximum the amazing thing is that it can be achieved at 15, not that it can't be achieved at 12. (Turns out after all the wonderful suggestions you'd need more levels to get the feats, so the theoretical maximum is only achievable at 20.)

And whenever these builds come into there full potential, they are both very powerful the entire way before hand, having full Wizard spell progression and access to Incantatrix abilities. In addition to their feats which are not all that bad.

[ColdBrew]

Oh good, just what I needed. A "Practical Optimization" Proponent who dedicates an entire post to informing me, through a rather insulting manner that might have been witty if it weren't blatantly copied, that I'm making things up not reflected in the rules. So helpful.

Chill. He was saying your build looked fine and remarking on the oft-disputed nature of RAW. Are all of Vecna's servants so irritable?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Chill. He was saying your build looked fine and remarking on the oft-disputed nature of RAW. Are all of Vecna's servants so irritable?

We serve an irritable Undead God who could at any moment decide to kill us and raise us as undead with a 10% chance of something cool like Lich, and 90% chance of Zombie number 1784456. And that's if we don't fail him. But we do likes the Enervation builds, and the Uttercold Assault build.

[ColdBrew]

We serve an irritable Undead God who could at any moment decide to kill us and raise us as undead with a 10% chance of something cool like Lich, and 90% chance of Zombie number 1784456. And that's if we don't fail him. But we do likes the Enervation builds, and the Uttercold Assault build.

At least you still have your hand and eye.