Why is the Mystic Theurge considered weak? (Also, pointless spiel on dino-CRs)

[Quorothorn]

Okay, keep in mind I'm comparatively a complete newbie at DnD.

I've gotten the impression that the Mystic Theurge PrC is considered weak. Why? Simultaneous advancement in both a divine AND arcane caster? Sure, it advances nothing else, but Sorcs get essentially nothing from their levels beyond spellcasting anyway and Clerics and Wizards get very little (better turning and a couple Bonus Feats, respectively); only Druids get extra class features, beyond full casting, regularly as they advance in level.

I mean, is Ultimate Magus considered weak too? It seems quite powerful too, and in a similar manner to Mystic Theurge (only two different arcane classes is probably more streamlined than a divine and an arcane). Warmage/Wizard and you can be both Batman and a mobile artillery piece, or Sorc/Wiz so that you can get reliable multi-casting of certain almost-always-useful spells (Ghostform, Greater Invisibility, Disintegrate, Cloudkill, Fly, Magic Missile, the Hold/Dominate line, whatever) and devote all your precious Wiz spell slots to specialty spells (Dream, Dimensional Anchor, Simulacrum, Trap the Soul, whatever). My conclusion on both is that perhaps such a character would suffer from having to have really good scores in two different Mentals. But even so, both PrCs seem very powerful from my perspective (not game-breaking, but not weak). After all, a Paladin generally needs to have okay-to-good scores in every single Attribute. If someone could perhaps enlighten me on some weakness to Mystic Theurge I might have overlooked?


Now [BEWARE POSSIBLY POINTLESS AND CERTAINLY LONG BIT HERE], in the Monster Manual II, a Spinosaurus is stated as CR13, a Seismosaurus as CR12. A PC's CR is equal to their levels if they're in PC-classes, so a Fight16 Wood Elf would therefore be CR16. Well, I ran a combat between the Spino and the Seis and another between the Spino and the Wood Elf. The Seis decimated the Spino in four rounds, with around half of its own HPs remaining, and it wasn't truly going all-out. The only explanation for this I can see is that the Spino has better movement speed and a couple Special Abilities particularly worrying for PC-sized characters, all of which are completely useless against something the size of Seis.

The Wood Elf (Ariar) v. Spinosaurus also ended with Spino very dead, this time in 5 rounds. However, the Elf Fighter ended the bout with only 19 HP (less than 1/6 his full strength). It seems to me that this fight bears out my previous theory on why Spino has a higher CR: Ariar would have dispatched Spino in Round 3 if it wasn't for Improved Grab.

I didn't actually run Seis v. Ariar, but I suspect the result would be pretty close and could go either way, but it definitely favours Seis for its durability; Ariar can dish out 2d6+50 per strike with four attacks (to hit of +13/+8/+3/-2) per round against AC 11 (max 246 dmg if all hit; presuming no nat 1 on the first attack, min is 52; I figure the "average" would be something in the area of, off the top of my head, 100-170); Seis can dish out 10d10+22, with no chance of Ariar making the Ref save except on a nat 20 (and therefore he's better served with using AoO for some extra dmg in return, since the odds of him missing such an attack are about the same as making the save). Seis has 464 HP, Ariar 124. So Seis most likely kills Ariar in two rounds after closing if it leads off with Trample (which IMO actually makes sense for it), whereas Ariar only kills Seis in two rounds of melee if he gets incredibly lucky...or if he got in some nice hits with his +1 Distance composite longbow before closing. So it comes down to how far apart they start and how aggressively Seis reacts. Spino only beats Ariar if it gets the jump on him or gets lucky (in the fight I ran, they started 100 ft away, which in retrospect is a very, very bad starting point for Spino), as Spino's dmg potential is more in the 40-range with full attacks.

The end result of all this blabbing is that I'm not certain how well CRs are working here. Though when I ran a Fight2/Pal6/Cav6 Dwarf against a Spino it utterly demolished it in an entirely one-sided bout where Spino basically could do squat whilst Ward (the Dwarf) and his rhinocerous (it's a legal Paladin holy mount, seriously) mount Cagney merrily ripped into it. So this is probably at least partially a "Fighters suck at high levels without optimization-fu-which-I-currently-cannot-hope-to-wield" type of deal.

[DementedFellow]

In order to attain MT, you need to have at least 3 levels in Wizard and 3 levels in whatever divine caster class.

So by the end of the first level of mystic theurge you'll have 3 Wiz/3 Clr/1 MT. Meaning a caster lever for arcane and divine 4th level. You'll still be at level 2 spells.

Meanwhile if you take straight wizard or straight cleric or druid, you would be at a caster level of 7. You're nerfing yourself with Mystic Theurge. And bookkeeping can be a nightmare.

EDIT: Somehow I forgot to mention that at level 7 you'll be casting 4th level spells. Don't know how I forgot that.

[SoD]

Well, on the CR rating, it gives the CR as being for a party of four PCs that level. Therefore your Spino should've been up against four Wood Elves (typically expected to be a sneak, a meat, an arcane, and a divine).

[Skjaldbakka]

D&D 3.5 favors specialization over versatility. Mystic Theurge trades focus in favor of versatility.

[SurlySeraph]

Short answer: The Mystic Theurge can cast lots of weak spells but very few strong ones.

Long answer: The earliest you can become a Mystic Theurge is Wizard 3/ Cleric 3. So, at 7th level, you'll be casting like a 4th-level wizard and a 4th-level cleric. This means that you get 2nd-level wizard spells and 2nd-level cleric spells. But a 7th-level wizard wizard or a 7th-level cleric will be casting 4th-level spells. In DnD, casting a few high-level spells is virtually always more powerful than casting many low-level spells, so the problem only gets worse as levels increase.

The only time a Mystic Theurge can outclass a straight Wizard or Cleric is when there are many low-power encounters in a single day, so the wizards and clerics run out of their hyperpowerful doom spells while the MT can keep throwing out Magic Missile and Shield of Faith.

[Nohwl]

mystic theurges are fun, but the only real use for them is if you are going to be fighting an army. you have almost no use for having that many spells a day.

[Chronos]

The only time a Mystic Theurge can outclass a straight Wizard or Cleric is when there are many low-power encounters in a single day, so the wizards and clerics run out of their hyperpowerful doom spells while the MT can keep throwing out Magic Missile and Shield of Faith.

Or, of course, when your DM lets you get away with combining it with cheesy things like Precocious Apprentice or Ur-Priest. But that's not really a fair comparison.

[DementedFellow]

A perk of Mystic Theurge is that you can have a wizard casting both arcane and divine spells, which is helpful when creating a golem. Golems are largely considered a waste of time and XP, but once you have amassed all you would need to make one you won't need to go around trying to find a divine caster to scribble down a scroll for you so you can make it move.

Also for some reason if you are a divine caster, you know all divine spells available to you. So if you do go MT, you may find yourself being bogged down by not only an extensive list, but even more lengthy when you take into metamagic spell preparation. It takes a lot of care to plan ahead.

[Quorothorn]

In order to attain MT, you need to have at least 3 levels in Wizard and 3 levels in whatever divine caster class.

So by the end of the first level of mystic theurge you'll have 3 Wiz/3 Clr/1 MT. Meaning a caster lever for arcane and divine 4th level. You'll still be at level 2 spells.

Meanwhile if you take straight wizard or straight cleric or druid, you would be at a caster level of 7. You're nerfing yourself with Mystic Theurge. And bookkeeping can be a nightmare.

D&D 3.5 favors specialization over versatility. Mystic Theurge trades focus in favor of versatility.

Short answer: The Mystic Theurge can cast lots of weak spells but very few strong ones.

Long answer: The earliest you can become a Mystic Theurge is Wizard 3/ Cleric 3. So, at 7th level, you'll be casting like a 4th-level wizard and a 4th-level cleric. This means that you get 2nd-level wizard spells and 2nd-level cleric spells. But a 7th-level wizard wizard or a 7th-level cleric will be casting 4th-level spells. In DnD, casting a few high-level spells is virtually always more powerful than casting many low-level spells, so the problem only gets worse as levels increase.

The only time a Mystic Theurge can outclass a straight Wizard or Cleric is when there are many low-power encounters in a single day, so the wizards and clerics run out of their hyperpowerful doom spells while the MT can keep throwing out Magic Missile and Shield of Faith.

I can see the point there, thanks you lot. I won't give up hope for the PrC, though: I have an idea for a character concept using it. The bookkeeping issue, however...ouch, particularly if you go Clr/Wiz instead of Clr/Sorc (fortunately this character would be the latter).

Well, on the CR rating, it gives the CR as being for a party of four PCs that level. Therefore your Spino should've been up against four Wood Elves (typically expected to be a sneak, a meat, an arcane, and a divine).

A classic party of four should take down a CR of their average level with 20% resource loss. When two equal CRs meet, the premise is that there's a 50-50 shot on them taking each other down, correct? Well, that CR16 Elf came nastily close to dieing against a CR13 creature, and that was with the encounter parameters somewhat in its favour (Spino didn't actually get to attack in Round 1 due to being 20 ft too far away for a Charge); if there had been two Spinos, Ariar would have had no chance (how much do numbers add to CR?). Again, I'm guessing it's due to a. Fighters are comparatively weak when you hit the teens in levels and b. my optimization fu is lackluster.

Meanwhile, a CR12 monster (the Seis) utterly demolished a CR13 (the Spino). That particular experiment certainly showed why adult sauropods in that size range had no natural predators...just way too big...

[Rachel Lorelei]

I can see the point there, thanks you lot. I won't give up hope for the PrC, though: I have an idea for a character concept using it. The bookkeeping issue, however...ouch, particularly if you go Clr/Wiz instead of Clr/Sorc (fortunately this character would be the latter).

Cleric/Sorcerer is even worse than Cleric/Wizard, since your arcane spellcasting is *another* whole level behind (and you know a VERY limited number of spells). Casting 2nd-level arcane spells at level 8 isn't very fun, I assure you. Surely a spellcasting-based cleric with the Magic domain could fit the same character concept?

A classic party of four should take down a CR of their average level with 20% resource loss. When two equal CRs meet, the premise is that there's a 50-50 shot on them taking each other down, correct? Well, that CR16 Elf came nastily close to dieing against a CR13 creature, and that was with the encounter parameters somewhat in its favour (Spino didn't actually get to attack in Round 1 due to being 20 ft too far away for a Charge); if there had been two Spinos, Ariar would have had no chance (how much do numbers add to CR?). Again, I'm guessing it's due to a. Fighters are comparatively weak when you hit the teens in levels and b. my optimization fu is lackluster.

The CR 16 elven Fighter is a Fighter, which is VERY problematic even against melee opponents in core (I could build a non-core Fighter 16 that devastates this thing in a couple of rounds).
Consider that a level 16 wizard, cleric, druid, etc could've gotten rid of this thing without expending even 20% of his resources.

Also consider that draining 20% of a *party's* resources isn't the same as draining 100% of the Fighter's resources. The Fighter is the "weak link" in the party. Think about what a simple spell like Glitterdust or Slow would have done to the dinosaur--parties synergize in ways single characters can't replicate.

Meanwhile, a CR12 monster (the Seis) utterly demolished a CR13 (the Spino). That particular experiment certainly showed why adult sauropods in that size range had no natural predators...just way too big...

Monster CR is in part assigned based on anti-PC ability. A monster that suddenly can't really use Grapple, Swallow Whole, and such effectively isn't going to be as effective as its CR says.

[DementedFellow]

If you go Clr/Sorc, you're looking at 4 levels of Sorc instead of 3 of Wiz. So if you stop to take the prerequisite dip in cleric before moving on to MT, you will be missing out on a whole 3rd level magic spell list, which to a Sorcerer is a lot. Either way you are hurting your arcane caster, only though with Sorc, you're hurting him even more since he has a slower spell progression than wizard.

[Talic]

The easiest way to really gauge the power level is at early levels for the PrC. Levels 7-10.

At level 7, you cast 2nd level spells in both arcane and divine.
At level 8 and 9, you get 3rd level spells for both.
At level 10, you have 4th.

Assuming you're smart, and took practiced spellcaster for each, you're at least caster level 10 by the end of this, even if you're only getting the spells of a level 7.

So let's compare.

At level 7, when the pure wizard gets Polymorph and Black Tenticles, you have Scorching Ray and Cure Medium Wounds. The level 7 Cleric has Death Ward and Freedom of Movement.

At level 8, the pure caster doesn't get a level upgrade, so now you're comparing your Fireball, Dispel Magic, and Cure Serious Wounds, to your opponent's above spells.

However, at level 9, your fullcaster companions get their boost to 5th level. Those third levels spells now must compete with Slay Living, Symbol of Sleep, Raise Dead, True Seeing, or Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Overland Flight, and Baleful Polymorph.

At level 10, in your defense, you're only one spell level behind, finally getting your 4th level magic.

The real question is, how many spells can you cast a round? Sure, having more gives you more options... But you have more waste every day, and less power in each cast. So overall, unless that versatility balances the power loss (it doesn't, if you're a good caster), you lose out in the long run.

[Quorothorn]

Cleric/Sorcerer is even worse than Cleric/Wizard, since your arcane spellcasting is *another* whole level behind (and you know a VERY limited number of spells). Casting 2nd-level arcane spells at level 8 isn't very fun, I assure you. Surely a spellcasting-based cleric with the Magic domain could fit the same character concept?

I'll have to look into that, thanks.

The CR 16 elven Fighter is a Fighter, which is VERY problematic even against melee opponents in core (I could build a non-core Fighter 16 that devastates this thing in a couple of rounds).
Consider that a level 16 wizard, cleric, druid, etc could've gotten rid of this thing without expending even 20% of his resources.

Also consider that draining 20% of a *party's* resources isn't the same as draining 100% of the Fighter's resources. The Fighter is the "weak link" in the party. Think about what a simple spell like Glitterdust or Slow would have done to the dinosaur--parties synergize in ways single characters can't replicate.

Monster CR is in part assigned based on anti-PC ability. A monster that suddenly can't really use Grapple, Swallow Whole, and such effectively isn't going to be as effective as its CR says.

Those were the conclusions I eventually drew, yes. Of course, 10d10+22 damage in a huge radius is pretty nasty to a PC party too, but all of Spinosaurus' special attacks (which are also fairly threatening to PCs) are negated by the simple fact that Seismosaurus has one size category and 12HD on it.

[DiscipleofBob]

Yes, a Mystic Theurge will be outclasses by a pure arcane caster and a pure divine caster, but really, that's not the point of the class.

If you're lacking a significant arcane AND divine role in the group, the Mystic Theurge shines, mainly because there's no one there to outshine it. You have your blaster, your controller, your buffer, and your healer all in one. Since a lot of pure casters lack class features anyway, the only thing you're missing are one or two spell levels and a lower caster level, the latter of which can be remedied with Practiced Spellcaster (if CL actually matters for the spells you're using that is.)

Admittedly, if you're going for cheese and breaking the game, those lost spell levels are going to hurt you too much for this class to be viable (unless you pull out all the obscure sourcebooks and find some strange way to combine divine and arcane spells into some combo cheeseburger.)

But if you're going for fun, and just want to figure out a way for your healer to get some spells off the arcane spell list too, or your wizard wants to be able to heal himself, or whatever, that's where you want your Mystic Theurge.

[Talic]

Yes, a Mystic Theurge will be outclasses by a pure arcane caster and a pure divine caster, but really, that's not the point of the class.

If you're lacking a significant arcane AND divine role in the group, the Mystic Theurge shines, mainly because there's no one there to outshine it. You have your blaster, your controller, your buffer, and your healer all in one.

Not quite. You have the blaster, the sometimes-controller-if-they-don't-pass-my-DC's-that-are-10%-too-low, the buffer, OR healer. Pick one.

Simply put, no matter how many spells you have, you have 1 per round. If combat's 5 rounds, then you have, usually, at most, 5 spells.

Would you rather they be weak or strong? The point of the class is to be jack of all trades, competent at none.

[Zincorium]

Alright, here's a good breakdown of the spell amounts for each, noting the discrepancy in ability scores that results from a dual-focus. Archivist would solve that last problem, but if you're in a non-core campaign you can surely find better than mystic theurge. Other stuff that may or may not apply (inherent bonuses) not included, admittedly. Anyway-

Single class wizard, level 16, 18 intelligence, +6 int booster item, +4 level:

1: 7
2: 6
3: 6
4: 6
5: 6
6: 5
7: 4
8: 3

Cleric 3/Wiz 3/Mystic Theurge 10, 16 int/wisdom/ 2 +4 items, +2 int/wis level:
(Includes domain, both progressions added together)

1: 12
2: 12
3: 10
4: 10
5: 8
6: 6
7: 3


A KEY POINT to realize with this is that this is the relative height of the mystic theurge's power, unless you have another class which progresses both (there are one or two) you're out of luck as far as more spells.

You've got 173 total spell levels versus 203 for the mystic theurge build. Not really that big of a difference, when you consider the distribution, but if you're set on having the most spells available mystic theurge might help, it's all a judgment call.

[Talic]

True Necromancer is one, for a more undeady-feel. That said, you DO get spells in more areas, but without another dual advancement class, you're looking at 8th level spells in both... at level 19.

If you're set on theurge, go as a Jermlaine (MM2). Tiny size, fey. -8 Str, +6 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, +6 Wis, -6 Cha.

A slight hit in Int, yeah, but look at the Wis and Dex. 28 point buy would look like this:

4 Str (4 points)
18 Dex (4 points)
12 Con (6 points)
14 Int (10 points)
18 Wis (4 points)
2 Cha (0 pts)

Now, hideously low Str, but being tiny, things will be light for you. Really light. Dex gives you a decent armor class (size helps there) and range touch (again, size good). Int is sufficient for defensive arcane spells until you can afford boost items, and wis is as good as you need in a 28 point buy. Turning won't be effective, but a Theurge build has worthless turning anyway.

Oh, and it's a LA +0 race, by the wizards updates for the MM2. Focus on illusion, get spells that make you harder to hit, and range touches, and you'll be golden.

[Skjaldbakka]

Wow. Cha 2 is barely playable. Barely being a concession on my part.

[shadeofblack]

how powerful would an epic level sorcerer/favored soul/mystic theurge be?

[Talic]

Wow. Cha 2 is barely playable. Barely being a concession on my part.

Then drop Str to 3, and raise Cha to 3.

how powerful would an epic level sorcerer/favored soul/mystic theurge be?

Let's see.

4 levels sorceror, 4 levels favored soul, 10 levels theurge, to start. That gives you 7th level magic at 18. Go 1 more sorc, 1 more Cleric, and the build at 20 is:

Sorc 5/Fav 5/Theurge 10.

Starting at 21, resume Theurge, for 3 levels, getting you 9th level, both schools. At level 24, take Epic Spellcasting, and you get epic slots for both sides. From here, you're good. You'll be CL 23 in each, with slots as CL 19.

[Nebo_]

If you're set on theurge, go as a Jermlaine (MM2). Tiny size, fey. -8 Str, +6 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, +6 Wis, -6 Cha.

Terrible idea. Don't play a character who only casts spells, with a hit to your casting stat.

how powerful would an epic level sorcerer/favored soul/mystic theurge be?

Try being a bit more vague...

Less powerful than a wizard of the same level, in general. MT has an awful epic progression, apparently.

[Titanium Dragon]

Would you rather they be weak or strong? The point of the class is to be jack of all trades, competent at none.

Actually, not so much. They're actually quite competant characters. Thing is, they're not insanely broken like pure casters are; they're still pretty strong, certainly stronger than a lot of classes.

It also depends on the sort of campaign; if you often have to fight tons and tons of consecutive encounters without resting, then they become better than they are otherwise.

Also, at extremely high levels they do start to be more interesting - at character level 20, assuming you go something like druid 3/wizard 3/arcane hierophant 10/mystic theurge 4 you'll have 4 level 9 spells, which is only 1 fewer than a pure caster of that level is likely to have, and potentially 1 more 8th level spell than a pure caster of that level would get. However, that's ignoring the previous 13 levels where you were pretty far behind in terms of power level; if you can just skip to that point, they're a lot less sucky (though probably still inferior, they're at a minimum interesting), but you still have to get two stats up to 28, which is a bit ugly. The problem is (again) once you cross into epic threshold, again you'll probably fall behind, though the degree to which that happens, I don't really know.

[Talic]

Terrible idea. Don't play a character who only casts spells, with a hit to your casting stat.

-2 to one stat, +6 to the other. Tiny size, as well. I think that's an acceptable reason to take a -2 to a single of the two casting stats.

No, the real terrible idea here is playing a theurge.

Actually, not so much. They're actually quite competant characters. Thing is, they're not insanely broken like pure casters are; they're still pretty strong, certainly stronger than a lot of classes.

Maybe, but worse at performing their job than any class. That's because they have no job that they do well. They can't tank, can barely boost (compare bull's strenth to any decent level 4 buff), they're ok at healing, but have less options than a full healer, and have inferior blasting to any class out there that can be made into a blaster.

So, you're trading out competence at any one thing to incompetence at most things, and barely making the grade in one.

Left out that "high level" bit. If you have to get a class to level 17+ to be worthwhile, then it's not a worthwhile class.

[Skjaldbakka]

Then drop Str to 3, and raise Cha to 3.

I think you missed the point.

[JBento]

No-one mentioned the Ultimate Magus the OP referred to, so I'm going to do it (since I find it an interesting class).

The UM is STILL less powerful than a single-class Wizard (but then again, everything is, unless you take a few noticeably broken should-never-have-existed stuff - such as IotSV and Incantatrix), though this is nearly denied if you use some barely-legal, not-RAI-in-my-opinion trick with Practiced Spellcaster.

UM is, however, substantially more powerful that the MT. Why? Two reasons: first, you only need one level outside of Wizard to qualify (one Sorcerer or Beguiler level to get 1st-level spontaneous arcane casting), which doesn't hamper you as much at lower levels.
Secondly, you can get spontaneous FREE metamagic effects, albeit not at will (which was the Incantatrix's main problems).
Plus, you also have some bonus feats and stuff along the class.

[Talic]

I think you missed the point.

[Scrubbed]

Incidentally, at the levels that IotSV has all of their veils, it's very hard for a creature NOT to penetrate 1 to 2. Which is really all they have. Granted, it still has fullcasting, but it's not all it's cracked up to be. In the games I've ran with one of these in the party, the veils did not have any significant impact on the player's longevity (incidentally, the veilist did die shortly after attaining level 7 in the class)

[Skjaldbakka]

A 6 is a dump stat. A 3 charisma is bad mechanically, because there are numerous effects that damage/hinder/reduce stats, which become take-downs instead of hindrances if you have a stat that low, and from a roleplaying standpoint- if you have a charisma of 3, the DM should just tell you never to speak in game, because no one pays attention to you anyway.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

On a similar tack, four or lower strength just screams out Greater Shadows to me.

[Skjaldbakka]

Hence why dropping str to 3 to raise cha to 3 was described as "not getting the point"

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

A 6 is a dump stat. A 3 charisma is bad mechanically, because there are numerous effects that damage/hinder/reduce stats, which become take-downs instead of hindrances if you have a stat that low, and from a roleplaying standpoint- if you have a charisma of 3, the DM should just tell you never to speak in game, because no one pays attention to you anyway.

That's a poor view of Charisma in my opinion. A Charisma of 2 is someone who can't help but be noticed every time they speak. People with 10 Charisma are invisible me too'ers. Someone with 2 is always talking about eating babies and those damn (Orcs, Half-Breeds, whatever else someone in the party is, but in a derogatory manner.)