Cat kills commoner

[Bayar]

Well, most of you guys know this already. But here is the scientific proof:

Cat kills commoner.

[Iku Rex]

Obligatory:







By the way, that battle seems to disregard the cat's 0' reach. It has to enter the commoner's square to attack, drawing an AoO every time.

[JBento]

There's at least two errors in that. Allow me to pick nits:

Round 1: If the cat attempts to Hide (a move action) he can't also double move.

Round 3: The cat is tiny, and has therefore a reach of 0ft. It has to move into the Commoner's space to attack, adnt herefore provokes an AoO.

[Mr. Friendly]

There's at least two errors in that. Allow me to pick nits:

Round 1: If the cat attempts to Hide (a move action) he can't also double move.

Round 3: The cat is tiny, and has therefore a reach of 0ft. It has to move into the Commoner's space to attack, adnt herefore provokes an AoO.

Are commoners even proficient in weapons? (Simple I would guess), is the Commoner armed though? Does he have his weapon drawn? If not, then the Commoner himself provokes an AoO for making an unarmed attack.

Thog helping.

[JBento]

It's stated in the link: the Commoner gets one Simple Weapon porficiency (he took club) and the weapon was drawn. On a side note, it's hardly scientific evidence. A sample of one isn't exactly representative. It'd be more convincing if he used average rolls (e.g., every d20 roll is a 10-11)

[Frosty]

Commoners are proficient with one simple weapon. As the Commoner provoking with an unarmed strike, that'd be true except for the fact that the cat has no reach, and hence can't even make an AoO on the Commoner even as the Commoner provokes. Or am I wrong about not being able to perform an AoO if the enemy is farther away than your reach?

[tyckspoon]

be more convincing if he used average rolls (e.g., every d20 roll is a 10-11)

That gets the commoner killed every time. The cat is AC 14 (high Dex, size bonus), and so cannot be hit by an average roll from the commoner, who has no stat bonuses and no BAB bonus. The cat attacks at +4 with its claws, and will hit the AC 10 (no armor, no stat bonus) Commoner with every claw.

[Ganurath]

Houserule it, problem solved.

[Mr. Friendly]

Ok, I can't read the link, but I will give this a go...

Human Commoner - 4 HP; since he is a human and knows to optimize for a vs. Cat challenge he takes Combat Reflexes for his feat and wields a club 2 handed. He also takes toughness for his 1st level feat, so he has 7hp and without armor, an AC of 10. His stats are all 10 or 11.

vs.

Housecat - 2hp, 14AC, 2 claws and a bite at +4 and -1, respectively. He is Hiding in tall grass, waiting to Ambush the Commoner.

The Cat takes 10 on it's Hide (giving it a total of 30) and we will assume the commoner maxs out Spot and has 4 AND he rolls a 20, giving him 24, so he has no idea the Cat is there.

The Cat pops out, the Commoner gets an AoO thanks to Combat Reflexes and needs 12s or better to hit, or never hits if we just use 10s and 11s for the roll.

By all rights, the cat *should* have Pounce, as this is a hallmark of the "cat" subtype as much as Trip is part of the "dog" subtype.

Anyway, the cat can get (1) attack, it will have partial charged as its a surprise round and will, using 10s and 11s always hit; worst case scenario, he needs a 4 to hit.

The next full combat round gets even worse. The cat will go first using 10s and 11s or will have a mathmatical advantage in a die roll. Even if the Commoner goes first, he still cannot hit or has less than a 50% chance to anyway. The cat however now gets 4 attacks on the commoner and pretty much auto kills him.

Now here it could be interesting though, if the commoner has say, a reach weapon, he could run away and set for a charge. But he will still never hit the cat.

You would have to optimize the commoner so much it fully exits the realm of reality.

Of course it is outside the realm of reality anyway that a housecat would murder you.

Everyone knows they just use Charm Person as an at-will SLA anyway.

[JBento]

>_>
<_<
Pssst.
<_<
>_>
If your Dexterity is 11, you can't take Combat Reflexes.

*Throws the just-picked nit away*

[Indon]

To channel the spirit of Morbo...

CATS DO NOT BEHAVE THAT WAY!

[Rutee]

Ok, I can't read the link, but I will give this a go...

Human Commoner - 4 HP; since he is a human and knows to optimize for a vs. Cat challenge he takes Combat Reflexes for his feat and wields a club 2 handed. He also takes toughness for his 1st level feat, so he has 7hp and without armor, an AC of 10. His stats are all 10 or 11.

He has 2 HP if he's an NPC, 5 with Toughness.

And if the Human can choose a feat, so can the kitty :D

[EvilElitest]

Makes you wonder why commoners can still live in FR, forget the monsters, the damn cats
from
EE

[Mr. Friendly]

He has 2 HP if he's an NPC, 5 with Toughness.

And if the Human can choose a feat, so can the kitty :D

The kitty already chose a feat, in it's stat block, it chose Stealthy.

Fine, I am house ruling it that the Commoner Class only can take Combat Reflexes and ignore the requirement. So nyahh!

Anyway... I just dinnae see how the Commoner can really win. The math just favors the cat too heavily.

[Rutee]

The kitty already chose a feat, in it's stat block, it chose Stealthy.

Fine, I am house ruling it that the Commoner Class only can take Combat Reflexes and ignore the requirement. So nyahh!

Anyway... I just dinnae see how the Commoner can really win. The math just favors the cat too heavily.

Well, the Commoner /can/ win. He /probably/ won't though, yesh.

[RTGoodman]

To channel the spirit of Morbo...

CATS DO NOT BEHAVE THAT WAY!

I disagree. My mom's cat is what we call "passing-aggressive" - that is, if you happen to pass by her while she's hiding, she'll swipe at you and then run away.


Anyway, since a Commoner doesn't have a way to make AoOs while flat-footed (Combat Reflexes requires Dex 13), the cat can run into the Commoner's square and attack safely on the first round. And then the cat wins initiative (most likel, and definitely if you assume average rolls) and full attacks the Commoner to death.

It'd be worse if cats had Pounce, but eventually the cat takes out the Commoner with barely a scratch if anything.

[Indon]

I disagree. My mom's cat is what we call "passing-aggressive" - that is, if you happen to pass by her while she's hiding, she'll swipe at you and then run away.

In D&D terms, that's a withdrawal action - the cat is attempting to retreat in a way that doesn't have you just open up on it. Sadly, by D&D rules it doesn't work out for the cat - the cat might not provoke moving out of the commoner's space, but it provokes when trying to move out of the commoner's reach. So unsurprisingly, a cat is insufficiently threatening to even be able to run away without risk.

[KoDT69]

My cat kicks my step-son's butt all the time. I'd put my money on the cat for sure

[Tengu]

Makes you wonder why commoners can still live in FR, forget the monsters, the damn cats
from
EE

Forget about cats, with 2 HP you can die from a cold, a pine cone falling on your head or by falling from a fence you were sitting on.

[Indon]

Forget about cats, with 2 HP you can die from a cold, a pine cone falling on your head or by falling from a fence you were sitting on.

Firstly, a cold would deal Con damage (which would only knock you into a coma if you took 4 points of it).

A pine cone would only deal 1 damage, if it dealt damage at all.

People fall from short distances (under 10 feet, the minimum threshold required in D&D to take fall damage) in real life and sustain life-threatening injuries.

Secondly, "You forgot to wear goggles during autumn, didn't you?"

[Oslecamo]

Cats don't have reach, so they don't threaten squares, so they don't make Aoo for the enemy moving.

Thus the commoner can every round bash and retreat, stoping the cat from full attacking. And cats can't hide if they don't have cover.

Actually, real life cats are quite dangerous if you provoke them. Those claws are sharp, and a cat pointing to the neck can rip an arteria and make you bleed to death. They're also quite agile.

But they normally won't kill you, because they see us as their slaves who feed them and slaves are hard to get.

So sometimes they give us a swipe or bite when we misbehave, but most of the time they'll let us live.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Makes you wonder why commoners can still live in FR, forget the monsters, the damn cats
from
EE

It's because they all are at least 15th level.

[Dan_Hemmens]

The commoner tends to win if he grapples, because he gets a huge bonus over the cat. Of course the Commoner probably can't understand the grapple rules.

In real life, of course, cats don't go berzerk and try to kill you. Then again, that's because in real life they aren't massively more dangerous than an adult human being.

[ColdBrew]

Cats don't have reach, so they don't threaten squares, so they don't make Aoo for the enemy moving.

They threaten their own squares, so they can still rape an unarmed commoner.

[Newtkeeper]

It's because they all are at least 15th level.

No, don't be silly. By that point, they usually have levels in the Underwater Basketweaver PrC.

[Subotei]

Lets just say someone had a bad day when they decided to stat up a house cat. A simple bad scratch or bite wouldn't even rate as 0.1 HP worth of damage. One aint ever going to kill you unless its got some nasty infection under its claws. No significant challenge to any healthy adult human. Unlike dogs. Or horses.

[rankrath]

no, the cat looses as follows;

cat moves into commoners square, provoking AOO.

Commoner used AOO to grapple cat, winning automaticly due to size difference.

Commoner has cat pinned, and preforms Coup de' grace on the cat.


Which is really what would happen if a cat and a human fought to the death. The human simply picks up the cat and bashes it into the wall.

[Zincorium]

Lets just say someone had a bad day when they decided to stat up a house cat. A simple bad scratch or bite wouldn't even rate as 0.1 HP worth of damage. One aint ever going to kill you unless its got some nasty infection under its claws. No significant challenge to any healthy adult human. Unlike dogs. Or horses.

The problem is, rather, that all attacks no matter how high the penalties are stacked always do a minimum of 1 damage. And that cats are given a die range for damage at all (a human's teeth are pretty close to as dangerous as a cat's claws, which is to say not particularly).

[EvilElitest]

Forget about cats, with 2 HP you can die from a cold, a pine cone falling on your head or by falling from a fence you were sitting on.

Heh, ah commoners, is there anything you can't make funny
from
EE

[Sstoopidtallkid]

no, the cat looses as follows;

cat moves into commoners square, provoking AOO.

Commoner used AOO to grapple cat, winning automaticly due to size difference.

Commoner has cat pinned, and preforms Coup de' grace on the cat.


Which is really what would happen if a cat and a human fought to the death. The human simply picks up the cat and bashes it into the wall.

Commoner misses AoO. He has no AB and the cat has 14 AC. The cat may even be Fighting Defensively for 16 AC.

The cat only needs a roll of 6 to hit and has a full attack that will kill in a round.

Plus, doesn't the fact that we are even having this discussion mean that there's a problem in the rules? Picture sitting down in your chair on a cat and dying because it started in your square. That shouldn't happen, but WotC is run by Gamists and the rules trump all.