Report: Players rolling all dice and other houserules

[Chronicled]

I've just finished the second session of a campaign testing out various houserules, most of which are based off of already published suggestions. The most significant of these is that players roll all the dice.

And it's working out wonderfully. Now, it really only means that all players roll a "defence check/armor save" instead of me making attack rolls, and that the sole party caster rolls spell checks against NPC's static saves. The result is a session that moves along much faster; since one of my major flaws as DM is not keeping things going as quickly as they need to, this has been been a major boon. (In my last campaign, play would bog down most when I needed to roll for NPCs, despite my attempts at finding ways to speed this.) My players were initially a little hesitant, but have really warmed up to it. I've been told that it gives them a larger feeling of involvement in and control over their situation, and that it assures them that I'm playing fair (in fact, apparently it almost feels like "their fault" if they take damage). On the downside, I can't do the "DM cackle" while rolling a plethora of dice behind a screen... but I'm getting better at the evil smile coupled with saying "Roll six defense checks." I honestly can't recommend this method of play enough.

Another houserule that I'm trying out is reserve points, which I took from Iron Heroes (there may be a similar suggestion in the SRD). Essentially, each day they renew a pool with points equal to their HP that they can convert 1/minute to real HP when not doing anything strenuous. The closest thing the party has to a healer is a paladin, and it's a low-magic campaign (no CLW wands, not even potions). It's done a good job so far (the party's at level 8) of replacing the need for a cleric, since the paladin is available for any emergency healing. It has also made the party a lot cockier about fights, since I haven't given them any back-to-back engagements yet, and have done only 2-3 fights/day. Has anyone tried this out in a party with a cleric/druid/other dedicated healer to let the player use the spells for things more fun than healing--or is the usual method of keeping all a cleric's spells from going to healing giving them a CLW wand?

The other major change is an active defense bonus (+5 at level 8) that scales with level, again taken from Iron Heroes. When I say that this is a low-magic campaign, I mean that each PC has 1 magic item. The defense bonus has done an adequate job so far of keeping their AC competitive--enough that in the swordsage's case, it's almost impossible for equal CR monsters to hit him.

As a note, the party is quite (sometimes unintentionally on their parts) optimized and intelligently played, and is breezing through encounters around their level. I'm tossing them against a hydra a bit above their CR next, still trying to get a feel for what's really challenging for them.

[Skjaldbakka]

Players roll all the dice is preferable if you can trust your players. Reserve HP is good. Anything that makes non-casters better without making a significant impact on game play is a good thing.


-CLW wand is standard operating procedure in my experience, yes.

[Chronicled]

Players roll all the dice is preferable if you can trust your players.

My players police each other, so I don't have to.

I hadn't taken that into account, though... I'll have to keep it in mind for future campaigns.

[Yakk]

+5 by level 8 is probably a bit much... A character wouldn't have a +5 set of magic armor by level 8, would they?

If you are going no magic, and you are using the CR system, you also have to worry about the lack of + to hit and damage from weapons and the lack of stat boosts.

[Chronicled]

+5 by level 8 is probably a bit much... A character wouldn't have a +5 set of magic armor by level 8, would they?

No, but between a +2 set of armor, +1 natural armor amulet, +2 ring of deflection...

I've also given them a +2 inherent bonus to all saves. As a player, I always esured I had a cloak of resistance +2 by level 8.

If you are going no magic, and you are using the CR system, you also have to worry about the lack of + to hit and damage from weapons and the lack of stat boosts.

I'm trying to figure out ways to fix that, too. At the moment, it's not even close to being a problem for them to hit equal CR opponents, and the longest fight has lasted 4 rounds. The swordsage's player has already complained about no stat boosts, and I'm probably going to fix that in a few levels via plot-granted bonuses. I'm expecting 8 sessions max, so I'm less worried about longevity (admittedly, were this going longer, I see how other options would need exploring).

[Skjaldbakka]

On the other hand, he is using Tome of Battle. Which ups the power curve above what is assumed by CR for most MM stuff. Also added into this equation is the possibility of 'things with levels' as antagonists.

EDIt- of course, to-hit will become a problem. Tome of Battle characters really need to-hit, and they don't have any good to-hit boosters.

[Chronicled]

On the other hand, he is using Tome of Battle. Which ups the power curve above what is assumed by CR for most MM stuff. Also added into this equation is the possibility of 'things with levels' as antagonists.

EDIt- of course, to-hit will become a problem. Tome of Battle characters really need to-hit, and they don't have any good to-hit boosters.

Note on the Party: Goliath Barbarian, Air Genasi Swordsage (Int/Wis adjustments dropped in exchange for no levitation), Half-Orc Paladin of Freedom (with Serenity and half-orc substitution levels) & Dire Boar Mount, Gray Elf Beguiler. LA bought off, 32pt buy; 1 "required" feat free (i.e. Power Attack for the barbarian), with encouragement to take a "fun" feat (the barbarian's player loves Quick Draw, but couldn't spare it before, for instance) in its place. No Shock Troopers or the ilk, but they're all pretty well built.

So far the closest that's happened to party death is the barbarian taking 3 heavy hits in one turn from CR5 gnoll barbarians.

I'll be keeping an eye out for to-hit issues; currently to-hits are: barbarian = +16 (+18 raging), swordsage = +13, pally = +14.

[Skjaldbakka]

+13 at level 8 is a bit low. He's gonna be hurting for to-hit in a few levels if he doesn't get some kind of to-hit booster.

Improved Feint might help. Since most strikes are standard actions, it can be a good way to shave off some AC from your opponent. There are some strikes that help your to-hit, but you want your stikes for damage or effects, not to-hit, ideally.

[Chronicled]

+13 at level 8 is a bit low. He's gonna be hurting for to-hit in a few levels if he doesn't get some kind of to-hit booster.

Improved Feint might help. Since most strikes are standard actions, it can be a good way to shave off some AC from your opponent. There are some strikes that help your to-hit, but you want your stikes for damage or effects, not to-hit, ideally.

Thanks for the tip, I'll be sure to pass it on. He's currently been making use of Island of Blades (easy flanking), and a charging maneuver to good effect against the obviously well AC-ed opponents--but I think he'd love this.

[Chronicled]

+13 at level 8 is a bit low. He's gonna be hurting for to-hit in a few levels if he doesn't get some kind of to-hit booster.

I've done a little thought on this, and I'd like to get some opinions on it: whetstones/weightstones. By properly sharpening/weighting a weapon, it gets a +1 bonus to hit for the next encounter. At encounter's end, more time needs to be spent resharpening/weighting the weapon for the bonus.

This seems a bit too cumbersome for actual use. Has anyone tried something like this that works?

[kjones]

The CRPG The Witcher does something similar with whetstones... but I'm not sure how it would work in D&D. In addition to being cumbersome, what kind of bonus does it provide? Does it stack with masterwork weapons? Can they overcome Damage Reduction?

These aren't rhetorical questions; I think you're on to something, and I always appreciate people's quixotic efforts to implement low-magic settings.

[Blanks]

I've done a little thought on this, and I'd like to get some opinions on it: whetstones/weightstones. By properly sharpening/weighting a weapon, it gets a +1 bonus to hit for the next encounter. At encounter's end, more time needs to be spent resharpening/weighting the weapon for the bonus.

This will just mean that ALL (slashing/piercing) weapons will get +1 all the time, since everybody will always do it. Not necessarily a bad thing, its just how it will end up i think.

Plus, have you considered that it means that blunt weapons will be relatively weaker?

[Chronicled]

This will just mean that ALL (slashing/piercing) weapons will get +1 all the time, since everybody will always do it. Not necessarily a bad thing, its just how it will end up i think.

Plus, have you considered that it means that blunt weapons will be relatively weaker?

Sharpening = Slashing/Piercing
Weighting = Bludgening.

Everyone will always do it, but it would be a source of funds to be channeled into (since in my current setting, magic items pretty much have to be pried from someone's cold, dead hands). Currently, I haven't been giving out anything in the way of loot, and I think changing that would be good. Also, it will help people keep their to-hit bonuses up without magic weapons/items boosting it (all they've got are masterwork weapons... at level 8).

The problem is that this would just be a hassle, unless I said "deduct X gold from your stash after the fight, unless you didn't hit anything." And the sole caster would be even more effective... hmmm.

Idea: Perhaps a rare sort of stone makes the best whetstones/weighstones... but gets used up quite quickly. I need more thought on this.

[Farmer42]

Well, you can introduce grades of weightstones and whetstones. That way there are scaling bonuses to hit as they can afford better resources. Just say that for 2000 GP they can nab themselves a rare elven whetstone made from exotic stones found only in the oldest of elven graveyards, that are valued for their ability to increase the sharpness and flow of the blade (ie, a +1 bonus to to-hit and damage). Stuff like that.

[Chronicled]

Well, you can introduce grades of weightstones and whetstones. That way there are scaling bonuses to hit as they can afford better resources. Just say that for 2000 GP they can nab themselves a rare elven whetstone made from exotic stones found only in the oldest of elven graveyards, that are valued for their ability to increase the sharpness and flow of the blade (ie, a +1 bonus to to-hit and damage). Stuff like that.

Ah, and just gloss over any time spent sharpening weapons. I like this; it'd be easier than having whetstones be a consumable resource.

Edit: Although, my players would immediately see that one stone could supply all of them. I think I can work with this, though. Maybe make it a plant that gets worn down by a single sharpening, but regenerates after a day or so... yeah, this could be fun.

[Farmer42]

I aim to please. Besides, I might just use that next time I run a low-magic game. It takes some hand waving, but special stones is a lot easier to hand wave away than some things.

[Skjaldbakka]

You could make it a craft check, requiring a "sharpening kit", which would have X uses. Similarly to a healer's or disguise kit. Instead of lasting per encounter, have the bonus last until a 1 or 20 is rolled on an attack.

Or if you want to be nice, until a 1 is rolled on an attack.

I'm thinking the DC would be the base DC used to craft the weapon, +5 for a +1 bonus, +10 for a +2, etc.

[new1965]

I
Has anyone tried this out in a party with a cleric/druid/other dedicated healer to let the player use the spells for things more fun than healing--or is the usual method of keeping all a cleric's spells from going to healing giving them a CLW wand?

It working well for our group. The cleric can now concentrate more on combat and the occasional buff. Most importantly, we have been able to extend the number of encounters we can have in a day to about 5 or 6.

[Chronicled]

You could make it a craft check, requiring a "sharpening kit", which would have X uses. Similarly to a healer's or disguise kit. Instead of lasting per encounter, have the bonus last until a 1 or 20 is rolled on an attack.

Or if you want to be nice, until a 1 is rolled on an attack.

I'm thinking the DC would be the base DC used to craft the weapon, +5 for a +1 bonus, +10 for a +2, etc.

Not sure if I like the craft check part, but I do like losing the bonus on a natural 1. Sounds better than my current "the enemy you attacked gets an AoO since you left yourself open."

It working well for our group. The cleric can now concentrate more on combat and the occasional buff. Most importantly, we have been able to extend the number of encounters we can have in a day to about 5 or 6.

Thanks for the info! It seems like I'll be using it for any and all future 3.5 campaigns.

[Yakk]

Hmm. Here is a somewhat random idea.

All masterwork weapons have levels, which reflects your familiarity with the weapon.

The base level of a masterwork weapon you "pick up" is 1/2 of your class level, rounded down.

Whenever you gain a character level, you get to boost the level of your masterwork weapons by a total of 2 levels. Your weapons cannot exceed your character level, however.

The benefits of a masterwork weapon are as follows:

      Attack    Defense    Damage    Specials
1     +1
2     +1                             Feat
3     +1        +1
4     +1        +1         2dice
5     +2        +1
6     +2        +1                   Feat
7     +2        +2
8     +2        +2         3dice
9     +3        +2
10    +3        +2                   Feat
11    +3        +3
12    +3        +3         4dice
13    +4        +3
14    +4        +3                   Feat
15    +4        +4
16    +4        +4         5dice
17    +5        +4
18    +5        +4                   Feat
19    +5        +5
20    +5        +5         6dice

Attack is your bonus to hit.

Defense is your bonus to AC while using the weapon.

At certain levels you can acquire the use of a feat that only works when you are using that weapon. These are selected from the Fighter Bonus Feat list (with obvious sillyess, like Improved Toughness, removed). As a special rule, you can only pick 1 feat with a given weapon every time you burn a "level up" with it, with the above table providing an upper limit.

Damage refers to the number of dice damage you do with the weapon.

If you lose your masterwork weapon, you need to learn a new weapon. This sucks.

The GM may allow you to go on a quest to get special materials and a smith to custom-make a weapon for your stances to allow you to move your "lost" levels over to a new weapon.

...

The goal here is to replace "finding cooler magic weapons" with "have a treasured weapon that you love".

Rolling multiple dice on a weapon seems powerful, but it isn't as strong as you might think: getting bonus dice from enchantments and the like isn't that hard, and you are also giving up + raw damage from enchantment and from strength buffs.

[Chronicled]

I like this idea. I like it a lot. Since my current campaign is already off the ground, I don't think I can spring this on my players (they've some experience, but aren't veterans), but I'm going to keep it in mind for later.

The more I look at it, the more I like it. I prefer to run low-magic settings, and this looks like it'll mesh with that perfectly.

[Yakk]

Minor fixes:
First, these are Grandmasterwork weapons, not masterwork.

Second, tightening up of the "level" syntax:
Every master work weapon you own gets a free "level up" on every even level.

In addition, you get +1 level to apply to a single weapon on every level.

If you pick up a new weapon, it starts at 1/2 of your character level, rounded down, and no feats. You can pick one feat every "level up" that you apply to the weapon (including the free ones on even levels) until you have reached the limit on how many feats it will support.

A quest to have a masterwork weapon forged for your particular style can be engaged in if you lose a weapon you had invested levels into. This allows the recovery of the skill on the old weapon. This could require a quest to get the raw materials, a quest to find a grandmaster weaponsmith, and a quest to convince that weaponsmith to make you a weapon suited for your fighting style. But really, this reduces to GM fiat.

Alternatively, a quest surrounding finding a great master trainer, to retrain you to learn a new grandmasterwork weapon, may suffice.

In any event, it should not be a minor loss to lose your grandmasterwork weapons.

Third, non-melee:
Spellcasters may imbue metamagic feats instead of fighter feats into their magical tools. A suitable grandmasterwork magical tool is as hard to get or find as a grandmasterwork weapon.

The bonus to attack and defense remain the same.

[Chronicled]

Sounds quite good. I'll be trying this out for sure in the future. Thanks!