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Thread: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
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2008-03-22, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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A ship, a dragon, and pirates
<emerges from a gate to the Elemental Plane of Water>
Greetings once again. I come to you yet again (after some months of lurking...) to ask for some advice. First, a bit of backstory. In my sea-based game, the party is temporarily in the employ of the Thanos Empire (the main human faction of my custom campaign setting). They've been getting missions from an Imperial officer and getting paid based on the relative success of their mission. Last session, they successfully boarded and recaptured a floating Shrine of Valkur (Valkur is found on page 49 in the Stormwrack supplement; I've “tweaked” him so he is the deification of Captain Jack Sparrow) without dealing any damage to the shrine aside from broken doors and some minor burning. Their commanding officer (Colonel Edrick Grange) is on his way with a bunch of other Imperial Navy ships and command staff to use the shrine as a floating field command. If this next mission goes well enough, they'll be assigned to be a sort of vanguard force when the time comes to make landings in enemy-held territory.
The next mission will be a joint strike by the dwarves, orcs, and Thanos humans. They will have a a small scouting ship of their own, on loan from the Thanos Imperial Navy. The overall objective is an archipelago being used as a series of pirate bases and encampments. The largest problem facing this assault isn't the defending drow warships and pirate vessels or all the landlubbers, it's a friggin' dragon. There will be a couple of other mercenary teams assigned to this, but I'm really planning on the having the PCs face this one, preferably from their ship if it won't TPK them. I have my handy MM and MM2 here, and I'm flipping through trying to see which dragons would best suit this. From what I can gather, it's looking like the black, white, bronze, silver, and topaz (topaz is on page 85 of MM2) dragons are my best bets. I don't want to kill the party, but I do want to see they face something that's obviously not fresh out of it's mother's/father's cave.
So what's my party, you say? You need only look just below.
-CG Aventi Swashbuckler5/Lasher3- Specializing in whips, good at battlefield (and deck) control
-CN Orc Fighter6/Eye of Gruumsh1/Warblade1- Our resident Mr. Full Blade at the head of deck clearing
-NG Human Ranger5/Swashbuckler3- relies heavily on archery and is accompanied by his wolf companion
-CN High Elf Fighter2/Ranger2/Swashbuckler1/Order of the Bow Initiate2/Duskblade1- Working on becoming a sniper of sorts, plans to take Arcane Archer levels when he can
-CN Half-Elf Rouge7/Scar Enforcer1- A skill monkey through and through, uses his short bow until he can get someone either flat-footed of flanked
-CG High Elf Rogue4/Sorceror4- A thief-mage who's much better at thievery than magery. Her only 2nd-level spell is flaming sphere, though she did recently pick up a CL7 wand of magic missile. Her primary long-ranged attack is actually a light crossbow.
The ship will have some siege weaponry on it, but it's for anti-ship purposes and entirely unsuited to anti-personnel and anti-flyer use. The small contingent of Thanos Marines onboard obviously won't even be able to touch the dragon, so they're extra sailors in this encounter. The party will have to get past a ship-to-ship fight, but they will have orders to sink or destroy the vessel(s) they face rather than capture them. If memory serves, everyone in the party has a magical ranged weapon of some kind. If killing isn't possible, they should at least be able to do enough damage to make it break off the attack. On a final note, the party having no one around to mend their wounds a lot of the time (even an NPC cleric) has gotten them into the habit of getting a lot of cure something wounds potions and spell tiles.
Thanks in advance, and my your run never rum out!
-ArchetypeLast edited by Archetype-; 2008-03-22 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Adding details regarding alignment
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2008-03-22, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
That's a pretty strange party. I'm sure there are a lot of good stories behind those builds.
I think I'd go for a young adult black dragon. Blacks get water-breathing, so it can rise in and out of the water mid fight at will. Since you're actively trying to avoid a TPK, this can give you an excuse to give them time to heal by having him submerge for a few rounds.Current Games:
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2008-03-22, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
That is one weird party - and I second a black. When the party is weak, it goes under. Plus the psychological effect of waiting for it to resurface is wonderfully torturous.
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2008-03-22, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
Originally Posted by AscensionOriginally Posted by streakster
Originally Posted by AscensionOriginally Posted by streakster
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2008-03-22, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
Is there some reason we've neglected green? Swim speed, acid breath (in a cone, especially good. Hit them all with it off the bat and have the deck melt out from under them. Green dragons are best known for their terror-mongering tactics, so that even fits the monkier. Have it toy with them. Play with their minds. Have it talk constantly, make it seem all-powerful and in control. Make it go underwater, only to surface on the other side and grab one of them before dragging them underwater. Have it nudge the boat from underneath, just enough to worry them.
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2008-03-22, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
Whatever dragon you go with, make sure to have it grab sailors off the deck, especially if they're standing right next to the party. Scare 'em a bit.
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2008-03-22, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
first of all, i'd like to commend the party build. it seems interesting, very ungeneric, and far more "flavur/ roleplay" based than just optimizing. this always makes for a fun play in my experience. but as to your question:
1) if you're going with a single dragon, then i'd suggest to go with the bronze actually, for several reasons:
- many experienced players faced Black Dragons sometime, and so the impact might be diminished. Bronze Dragons are very rarely used (the most common metalic dragons used are gold and copper as far as i know). it might be a very refreshing change.
- Bronze Dragons ARE Sea/ Ocean dragons. much of their fluff (and some of their capabilities) fit the campaign setting.
- their alternate form ability could make the battle more varied, as well as more "cinematic": after several simple attacks the over condifent dragons soars high, before diving down, changing in the last moments to a bronze skinned humanoid, with greenish-dark eyes (have the dragon carry a small tied bag with some weapon and such. perhaps a drow weapon?), as the battle go worse he might leaps over board, turning into a long snout golden dolphin, and so on.... if the party knows of the danger of a dragon, you can play a nice deception- they first meet the dragon in the form of a survivor of one of their fleet's drowned ships (scouting vessals?), when they pull the "sailor" up, it tells them of the horror of the attack, and so on, and minutes after, after learning a bit about the challange ahead of it, it changes form and attacks! (this tactic is mostly for the "wow! it tricked us even though we were warned of it's conniving! smart enemy!" factor, which should be appliedto most dragon encounters). you can use the alternate forms as a "break for the party" from fighting the full dragon form, as well as it being a change of pace.
- the "speak with animals" ability can also be used to add "cinematic value" as well as interesting battle options- the dragon might have conversed with a flock of large birds from the local isles, to act as distractio in battle, or perhaps attack/harrass spell casters and such (a few rounds after the battle starts a masses of birds swarm the ship, screeching, harassing the crew, the wizards, and so forth, while the dragon laughs "you cannot fight the pwoer's of the <insert appropriate native representive fowl here>). again- birds common to the Drow or other ethnical group? other uses:
flocks of birds/ schools of fish (trailing the shi), that masks the dragon's flight/ swim when it's wounded/ needs to regorup.
as the battle rages, the party hears thumps underneath- it's some large sea animal (whale?) the dragon convinced to attack the ship before hand, creating a secondery threat- now the party must decide how to deal with the two.
if you go with the "drowned sailor" tactic, the dragon can then talk with the few animals on board (the ranger's wolf companion?), to either try and gain information, or cause confusion.
- the spell list can include cleric spells, which means healing spells. this might be vital if the party somehow find a brilliant solution (which players so often do), and tear through the beast far faster than anticipated. having some low level healing spells might get your dragon patched up a bit, as it swims/ flies away in a "tactical retreat". also- if the party heals itself while the dragon regroups itself, it might add to their shock to see it healed as well (though probably fer less than the party did).
- one of the things i like about metalic dragon is their secondery breath- it always keep the breath weapon aviable option, even if the party has knowledge of the dragon's breath. if the party knows they are facing a black dragon/ green dragon or such, and they do their research/ knowledge checks, then the breath weapon is mostly useless against them. with the bronze however- you can have it breath it's lightning once or twice, to award the party's preperarion and resource use, and then change to the repulsion breath. also- this is a great tactical weapon, as well as a DM tool to reduce nagging massive battle issues- dragon breathes, most of the crew fleas down to quarters, or jumps to the water (where a few hungry shark the dragon talked before start feasting?), no more dealing with the crew movements and actions during the fight. note that in this watery environment, this breath weapon might be even more deadly then the lightning one... (especially to heavily armored characters). anyway- it's always another option.
- compared to the aforementioned blackdragon, bronze dragon usually have the same size, and one age category than black dragons due of a similar CR. (if it's a problem, just take one size categoty less, and add class level). i'd suggest go with a Juvenile bronze dragon, maybe with one or tow levels of sourcerer (more spells), fighter (exotic drow weapon?), rogue (evasion and sneak), or ranger (good for flaovour, add a focus to a character by "fevorite enemy" such as high elves, and the two weapon fighting in humanoid form can make it look more flashy)
2) just as another idea, if you're realy fearing a TPK, or want a more tactical battle (which you mgiht since the party iscomposed out of 6 characters, plus wolf, plus some of the crew, and so on): the party hears conflicitign reports, about dragons: some scouts depict one color, some another, but the general mannerisms and forms of attacks are very similar. the party would most likely prepare to the "most likely" dragon, thinking there is some sort of deception. in fact, there isn't- there are two dragons! use two dragons (of a yuonger age then originally planned), who for some reason work together (were both orphaned at a young age, and they found each other, sticking together with fierce loyalty and so on...).
the idea is to have to "lesser" dragons, who trely on great coordination between themselves. preferably the party would start combat, thinking they combat just one dragon (a flying one who just breaths and make flyby attacks for example), and then suddenly find a second one! (who swam silently and started raking the hall, or was a bronze dragon in umanoid form, who subbotaged the wheel/ set fire to the siege amunition). then the battle begins, the party facing one opponent while the other does damage, and the dragons switching places whenver one gets too wounded/ in a tough spot, until finally the party must deal with both of them at once, in a desperate fight. (there are many good combinations, but i would suggest to avoid at all costs highly similat ones, or the same breath weapon, such as green and black).
two added side advantage to this: the battle might be far more controllable from your end, and even more importently- you now have two major enemies, whihc can have distinctive personalities which play upon each other, taunting, encouraging, berating, and so on (think of fiercly independent teen aged siblings). having two ofthem might bring their character so much more to life, make them far more real, far more memorable, far more enjoyable....
ok, long enough post. hope this helped, let us know what happened..
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2008-03-22, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
I second the suggestions of a Black or Green dragon, particularly the bit about having the dragon use acid to melt the hull. To create a good sense of concern/terror/worry among the party, you could have the dragon start melting hulls before it ever surfaces.
This could be a great way to get the accompanying troops out of the way--as the party & allies are starting to drive their enemies away, one of the allied ships suddenly starts sinking for no apparent reason. Then another one starts to sink. Then the PC's vessel lurches, and starts listing, slowing, and sinking. (If it's an archipelago, let the PC's ship be hit in relatively shallow water, so that if it sinks, it can be retrieved without too much difficulty.) After a few rounds of confusion, the dragon pops up and acid-attacks the rigging/sails, or the deck, depending. From there, it can either clamber aboard (making the ship sink much faster) or stay in the water, harassing the swiftly-sinking vessel.
Sure, sinking their ship is kind of mean. But it also is an excellent reminder that the ocean is different than the land. I ran a nautical/piratical campaign, and I found that it was good to have a few moments where the players were reminded "oh, yeah! Our characters are on a ship on the water!" It'll remind them that in a nautical campaign, the ship is as important, if not more important, than any single PC. As such, it's good to spend money on improvements; or, in this case, it's necessary to spend money/time on fixing the boat.
Plus, the repairs/salvage/raising of the sunken ship(s) could be a hook for plenty of other adventures--what do they see underwater? What lies beneath the surface--is it a sunken city? Treasure? A cave complex? Are the islands just the tops of a sunken kingdom?Winter Is Coming
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2008-03-22, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
Black Dragon melts a hole in the hull and climbs through. As the crew watches the water for the dragon to resurface, Imagine their surprise when it BURSTS out from below deck, catching the players unaware!
"Four exclamation points; the true sign of a Mad Man." -Terry Pratchett
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2008-03-22, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
I didn't notice an alignment listed for these adventurers... metallics usually don't attack Good aligned, right? Blacks may be the best bet. Reds could be annoying, though they don't have the ability to breathe water...
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2008-03-22, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
Originally Posted by Kol Korran
OK, now to look over and address your arguments for the Bronze.
Originally Posted by Kol Korran
Originally Posted by Kol Korran
Originally Posted by Kol Korran
Originally Posted by Kol Korran
Originally Posted by Kol Korran
Originally Posted by Winterking
Another really long post. Well, I'm glad I'm getting good advice. Thanks again.
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EDIT: Well, now...
I didn't notice an alignment listed for these adventurers... metallics usually don't attack Good aligned, right? Blacks may be the best bet. Reds could be annoying, though they don't have the ability to breathe water..Last edited by Archetype-; 2008-03-22 at 05:59 PM. Reason: addressing someone who posted before me
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2008-03-22, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-03-22, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
well, glad it helped. tell us what you settled on, and what happened next. i am intrigued...
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2008-03-22, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
The next session's not until this coming Friday the 28th, so I've ample time to decide and prepare. Any way the dice fall, it'll be an encounter to remember.
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2008-03-23, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
Be sure to tell us all the full story of what goes down! This sounds epic!
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2008-03-23, 02:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
If you want the ship to most likely make it to the shore, a dragon that can go underwater is a bad idea.
Your biggest problem may very well be justifying why the dragon doesn't just disengage once it realizes that the party is a threat and attack someone else. Then again, since it probably doesn't matter to the plot whether or not some nameless mooks have their ship torched/dissolved, simply getting the dragon off their backs until they can land might be sufficient. As it seems to be set up, there's a fairly good chance that the dragon will survive the battle regardless of who wins, so it doesn't matter too much whether the party is actually capable of taking it down normally.Last edited by Jothki; 2008-03-23 at 02:01 AM.
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2008-03-23, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
Nothing is scarrier at sea than a red dragon. Remember that rigging is rope, and sails are cloth. Both of which burn very easily. A red dragon swooping down out of the sky can breath weapon away all propulsion, leaving you vulnerable to the same pirates you set out to destroy.
You have siege weapons? Are we talking cannons, or catapults? Cannons can be used against flyers if you want, and I'm certain the party will want to. Catapults are tricky, but it's possible.
What exactly do you mean, "carriers"? None of the party can fly, but the Lasher might appreciate an opportunity to grab on to the dragon and try to climb aboard, perhaps let him try to put an eye out.I am trying out LPing. Check out my channel here: Triaxx2
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2008-03-23, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
That may very well be (and likely is) the case, but remember that such a breath weapon can set fire to the ship. That has a strong possibility of adding a factor that tosses the encounter very much in the dragons favor. I am trying to avoid a TPK here, and that might happen if the party is busy putting out fires on their ship.
Originally Posted by Triaxx
Originally Posted by Triaxx
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2008-03-23, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
True. It can however rake the ship with it's talons. And kick up clouds of steam to hide in, and attack from. The dragon doesn't have to just attack the PC's. As the first wave approaches, have the dragon plummet out of the sky, and make a fly-by attack against each ship, including the PC's. If the ship doesn't catch fire, then the dragon can attack, if it does, have it move away to harrass something else until they get the fires put out.
Catapult's eh? Since this is a big fleet, and sailing out to attack an enemy emplacement, I assume you have fishing equipment aboard. Someone might find themselves tripping over a net. A dragon flying out of a steam cloud to rake the ship might well find itself flying through an entangling net.
Dwarven Bombards? If the ships are nearby, the PC's might benefit from luring the dragon into range. They don't need to use them, just give the dwarves something to shoot at.
Air superiority... Unfortunately, most of those would simply be snacks for a dragon. So they're better off staying clear. Unless you have a dual lance wielding dark elf on a winged unicorn to charge at it.
Incidently, Red's don't have Water Breathing, but they do have a good constitution score and could dive under and resurface on the far side of a ship, forcing the PC's to change position.I am trying out LPing. Check out my channel here: Triaxx2
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2008-03-23, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
With a dragon capable of extended submersion, is there any reason for it not to just dive beneath the ship and rip the hull to shreds, then fly off and wait for everyone to drown? Will the players' side have any means of fighting a submerged dragon at all?
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2008-03-23, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
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2008-03-23, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2008-03-23, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
Originally Posted by Mmad
Originally Posted by Triaxx
Originally Posted by Triaxx
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2008-03-23, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
hi, just one thought about your players falling into water, since it is a fairly big hazzard: why not equip your players (or allow them to buy), some special potions (call them "sailor's last chance- giving water breathing and a +5 or +10 to swim for a short time. a minute or five perhaps?). you could claim that the fleet's wizard/ artificer/ potion maker made these in abundance in preperation for the invasion.
these short lived potion could prevent the character from dying by failing a blalance check near the rail/ bfailing a save against a repulsion gas/ being bull rushed/ whatever. but- it also keeps the danger alive and kicking (or treading, depending how you look at it).
oh, one more thing- goooooo Bronzy!
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2008-03-24, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
I meant flung from catapult's actually, if you can manage to get him as he swings, he'll take some pretty heavy drowning damage.
I don't know either, but I guess it's because Lance's do double damage on a charge, and unicorns get extra damage from their horn on a charge. I think it counts lances as finesseable for some reason. It's also supposed to be a cavalier.
And speaking of breathing underwater:
Potion of Breath
Effect: A potion of Breath lasts for 8 hours from it's initial use, and does not interfere with breathing, or speech. One potion contains three doses.
Cost: Purchase: 10,000gp Brew: 5,000gp, Water Breathing/Scroll of Water Breathing, DC 22 Brew Potion Check.
It's the kind of thing the Navy SEAL's wish they had. An invading navy might give it to the special forces who go in first to hunt for mines, or other booby traps. Think hundreds of rogues diving off the boat and swimming away to search for traps. Maybe the navy has a few left after some of it's rogues got ill from bad sushi.I am trying out LPing. Check out my channel here: Triaxx2
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2008-03-24, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
clarification on the "sailor's last chance" sort of potion (stemming from triaxx's post):
i know of the water breathing potion (didn't remember it was this expensive though). what i had in mind was a simpler potion, for a short time (1-5 minutes i'd suggest), that also gives a bit of a swim bonus. the "fluff" behind it is a fairly low cost saving device for sailors and the like (if they get thrown over board during a storm for example). the gaming reason is to give the characters some help when falling to the water (instead of havingthem nearly helpless and drowning), without removing the actual danger, or providng a far too tactical tool (as an 8 hours water breathing potion would be).
it's not listed anywhere, but who cares. just though it'll fit the situation, and the campaign...
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2008-03-24, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
Originally Posted by Triaxx
Originally Posted by Triaxx
Originally Posted by Kol Korran
Originally Posted by Triaxx
<prints up a blank sheet and gets his D6s and Russian space pen>
-ArchetypeLast edited by Archetype-; 2008-03-24 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Friggin typos... I'm not working with kitties!
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2008-03-24, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
True, depending on how fast he's coming, he might hit open nets or have a BIG headache. Hope he's got Cure Hangover.
Alter Self is probably a better option, though for the purpose stated one potion is enough for three people, so two would do the party.
The trick seems to be using a Cavalier, which allows Mounted Pounce, and oversized TWF, so the lances are treated as light. Which is appearently how finesse can be applied, though I would say no to that. Worse still, I wrote a homebrew that increases the damage a lance does even further when charging.I am trying out LPing. Check out my channel here: Triaxx2
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2008-03-24, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
There, fixed that for ye.
Originally Posted by Triaxx
EDIT: I'm also not finding Mounted Pounce anywhere. Closest I can find is Full Mounted Attack for the Cavelier, and that's not exactly a pounce...Last edited by Archetype-; 2008-03-24 at 10:31 PM.
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2008-03-24, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A ship, a dragon, and pirates
From the perspective of the dragon:
Step 1: Infiltrate and Scout. Show up as a wounded friendly.
Step 2: Ambush. Friendly ships are going to attack the ship. During the fight, the dragon starts killing the crew on board. If serious resistance develops, jump overboard and/or transform. Crippling the anti-ship weaponry is key, and easy for something as powerful as a dragon.
Step 3: Fight. The dragon uses breath weapons to clear the deck of the ship. The goal here is to beat down the humans on the ship so the friendly ship can capture it.
Step 4: Oh crap. This is likely to happen with the PCs on board the ship: they will be much tougher than expected. The dragon isn't an idiot, and will have a backup plan: first, pull out. Second, hull the ship.
It is better that the ship sink than the Dragon be defeated. :)
...
Now the question becomes, how to the players not die?