Resonable AC

[Shatenjager]

I'm running a game and I keep wondering what a reasonable AC is for my players.

We're currently level 10 and my front liners are above 30 with their ACs. It's so annoying when I reduce almost all my non-spellcaster encounters to "can I roll some 20s."

They are using spells to keep things this high, so my hope is that if I run them ragged they might find danger eventually, but as it stands I can't touch them.

Also btw I'm running from a module and trying to keep to it as much as possible so I don't want to tailor the enounters too much.

I basically am just looking for feedback as to whether I'm letting them cheese out to an unreasonable degree. I'm not opposed to letting them play what they want as this is our last hurrah of 3.5, but I also want to be able to challange them with something other than spells or amazingly powerful fighters.

[Corsec1337]

They will fear the touch attack... For it is mighty and ignores that expensive armor...

Seriously though, thats how all of my 3.5 experince has turned into eventually. You will get those silly monsters at the end of the module though that can cause the players jaw to drop when they are getting hit all the time all of a sudden.

[SamTheCleric]

Brilliant Blade cast on someone's weapon will make the cower in fear. :)

[Haakon]

Depending on the module, fights against spell casters can rid them all of their buffs. Targetted dispel magics and walls of dispel magic will severely reduce the effectiveness of those spells. I was having similar problems with PC's in a game I was running. Spells and effects that can divide up the PC's can work wonders as well. Walls and minions (or walls of minions!) can prevent the PC's from ganging up on your BBEG and allow you to whittle away on one PC at a time.

Don't forget that monsters can use to "Aid Another" action as well, to provide a +2 bonus to hit, as long as they beat a DC 10 check. With numerous mooks making this check, you can greatly increase the change of hitting PC's. Spells effects like displacement, blur, invisibility and being incorperal can aid you as well, since it allows your larger monsters to last long, in order to hit those high AC's.

Maybe modify some small areas so that they severly reduce their, such as climbing or swimming. I know your PC's probably have access to fly spells at this point, but climbing can severely reduce anybodies ACs.

Have your BBEG cast the same spells and take the same actions. I know it will take alot of book work, but it can be done! Good Luck!

[Telonius]

Some tactics you might consider...
- Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic
- Other debuff spells
- Dex-decreasing effects
- No-save spells (black tentacles, etc)
- Tanglefoot bags
- Exhaustion effects
- Trip them
- Flank them

[Person_Man]

Other then Polymorph, Divine Metamagic, and occasionally Celerity, I don't ban anything. Players can use any books, and get standard wealth by level. The only catch is that I ask them to make their characters together, so that they're reasonably close to each other in power level.

Besides, D&D is has an endless variety of different things you can target: AC, touch AC, flat footed AC, three different Saves, plus various spells that have no Save whatsoever. Every PC is vulnerable, no matter how many defenses they throw up. You just have to be creative as a DM, and mix up your encounters in such a way that they don't feel that you're picking on them or using your omniscient knowledge to thwart them. (You are, but you need to balance encounters in such a way that it doesn't seem like it).

[Admiral Squish]

I'm in an ECL 16 campaign, and I have a barbarian/fighter with 40 AC, no spells. I ran through all the CR 16 or thereabouts monsties, and it takes a CR 17 dragon a natural 20 to hit me, with my spells on.
However, I only have about 16 touch AC. 20 with shield on.
I suspect he's going to take advantage of that. A lot.

[Mr. Friendly]

I'm running a game and I keep wondering what a reasonable AC is for my players.

We're currently level 10 and my front liners are above 30 with their ACs. It's so annoying when I reduce almost all my non-spellcaster encounters to "can I roll some 20s."

Hi, welcome to D&D 3.5

They are using spells to keep things this high, so my hope is that if I run them ragged they might find danger eventually, but as it stands I can't touch them.

Also btw I'm running from a module and trying to keep to it as much as possible so I don't want to tailor the enounters too much.

Modules are often written, seemingly, by the same people who think Monks are overpowered and that Clerics, Druids and Wizards are totally balanced. They also seem to ignore that there are books outside of Core.

I basically am just looking for feedback as to whether I'm letting them cheese out to an unreasonable degree. I'm not opposed to letting them play what they want as this is our last hurrah of 3.5, but I also want to be able to challange them with something other than spells or amazingly powerful fighters.

I know it seems cheesy and ridiculously broken and it is. It's also how 3.5 just is. If you don't want to significantly change the stuff in the modules, add in a "side quest" that involves the bad guys having hired an Epic Level mage to cast a spell for them...

DM CHEESE
Level: Epic
Effect: Choose target PC Party. All opponents they face gain a bonus of n to their attack rolls. n = whatever it would take to make the roll an 11 or better on a d20.

[Shatenjager]

Ok. I hear you, and it's good that I can believe my players when they say that this is to be expected.

I already know about most of the tricks offered, but again I am running a module by the numbers and the only person to have dispel magic that has shown up so far was dead by the time they realized it was needed.

Good idea about the Aid Another though.

Oh, and btw I just ran them past some incorporeal touch enemies and they still had to roll a 20 to hit (touch AC of 25 on that guy).

[Tsotha-lanti]

How are they above 30 in AC? It does sound oddly high; certainly higher than my players' PCs have gone at mid-levels.

Mithral full plate +3, large shield +3, and Dex 16 makes for AC 29, and is a significant investment. Are they within the wealth-by-level guidelines? In my experience, nothing ruins campaign balance like exceeding WBL. (Meanwhile, toning encounters down is always easy, so being under WBL isn't even a big deal.)

Even when you stay within WBL, it's much easier to keep the game balanced if you hand out magic items (chosen carefully), instead of handing out gold and having a Wal-Magic store in every town. ("For all your magic item and custom crafting needs, 24/7/365; we have all DMG items in unlimited stock, and sometimes waive crafting times!")

It was true in AD&D and it's true now: be stingy with cloaks and rings of protection.


But like Mr. Friendly said, welcome to D&D 3.5. "Where magic has no appreciable cost."

[Chronos]

Oh, and btw I just ran them past some incorporeal touch enemies and they still had to roll a 20 to hit (touch AC of 25 on that guy).

If it's only "that guy" that has that high a touch AC, then the solution is for the things that use touch attacks to just not target that guy. A touch AC of 25 is probably a monk, which means that the enemies can afford to just ignore him until after they've dealt with everyone else (i.e., the ones they can reliably hit). Even if he's not a monk, unless he's significantly more offensively powerful than the other characters, it's still good sense to save him for last. With the way the HP system works, it's always worthwhile to concentrate on one opponent at a time, starting with whoever has the most offense and/or least defense.

[Worira]

Plenty of CR10 monsters can punch through AC 30.

[Craig1f]

How are they above 30 in AC? It does sound oddly high; certainly higher than my players' PCs have gone at mid-levels.

Mithral full plate +3, large shield +3, and Dex 16 makes for AC 29, and is a significant investment. Are they within the wealth-by-level guidelines? In my experience, nothing ruins campaign balance like exceeding WBL. (Meanwhile, toning encounters down is always easy, so being under WBL isn't even a big deal.)

Even when you stay within WBL, it's much easier to keep the game balanced if you hand out magic items (chosen carefully), instead of handing out gold and having a Wal-Magic store in every town. ("For all your magic item and custom crafting needs, 24/7/365; we have all DMG items in unlimited stock, and sometimes waive crafting times!")

It was true in AD&D and it's true now: be stingy with cloaks and rings of protection.


But like Mr. Friendly said, welcome to D&D 3.5. "Where magic has no appreciable cost."

Add in natural armor, ring of deflection, combat expertise, maybe some skirmish, and dodge, and you can get it pretty damn high.

We just had to fight a horizon walker with AC 34 while fighting defensively. It sucked. Fortunately, my barbarian had a +23 to hit at level 9 (reckless rage, animalistic power, bard song, +2 weapon.

If your players are using mostly magic to get their AC up, try taking Mage Slayer -> Pierce Magical Protection.

As a standard attack, you can dispel all of their AC-granting spells, except for Cat's Grace.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Combat expertise is very situational, and it reduces attack bonus; not a problem in itself. If they're pumping up their AC with Combat Expertise, they're not hitting anything. If they've got medium armor, they won't be skirmishing. Dodge adds +1 against one opponent, and is pretty much irrelevant.

At 10th level, WBL is 49,000 gp.

+3 mithral full plate is 19,500 gp, +3 heavy shield is 9,170 gp. That's 28,670 gp just on the armor. A ring of protection +2 puts that to 36,470 gp; an amulet of natural armor +2 hikes it to 44,470 gp, and you can barely fit in a magic weapon. That's AC 33 (with Dex 16, which you probably don't have with standard point buy if you're wearing the full plate).

'course buffs like barkskin help get there, but buffs are easy to deal with.

[Frosty]

As a DM, what would you do against a PC with 45 Touch AC, 50 normal AC, 27 F, 25 R, 38 W saves, and immunity to Disease and Compulsion (so Power Words are useless)? HP is pretty average.

Target his allies and ignore him? Force Cage?

[Tsotha-lanti]

I'd probably hit them with a level-appropriate opponent like the anaxim or a phane.

[Craig1f]

Combat expertise is very situational, and it reduces attack bonus; not a problem in itself. If they're pumping up their AC with Combat Expertise, they're not hitting anything. If they've got medium armor, they won't be skirmishing. Dodge adds +1 against one opponent, and is pretty much irrelevant.

At 10th level, WBL is 49,000 gp.

+3 mithral full plate is 19,500 gp, +3 heavy shield is 9,170 gp. That's 28,670 gp just on the armor. A ring of protection +2 puts that to 36,470 gp; an amulet of natural armor +2 hikes it to 44,470 gp, and you can barely fit in a magic weapon. That's AC 33 (with Dex 16, which you probably don't have with standard point buy if you're wearing the full plate).

'course buffs like barkskin help get there, but buffs are easy to deal with.

If you're a full BaB class, fighting someone without a good AC (like a barbarian), using combat expertise to deny them hits is worth it, because you'll probably hit anyway.

Don't get Mithral full-plate, get a mithral chain shirt and pump your Dex to 6. Or get padded and get it higher if you can.

Get a two-handed weapon and an animated shield.

This horizon walker would have destroyed my barbarian if I hadn't been rolling extremely well, getting help from a teammate, and burning action points to get blindfighting every round (he had some kinda greater invisibility thing).

His AC was well into the 30s, he had no trouble hitting my character, and I had to roll at least a 12 to hit him on the first swing. With a +23 to hit at level 9, that's a pretty sick AC. Of course, he was at least a level 11 character, probably more.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Pumping Dex that high is going to be even further out of WBL. It comes down to the characters apparently being above WBL, which always leads to trouble, or having good buffs, which is easy to deal with.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

As a DM, what would you do against a PC with 45 Touch AC, 50 normal AC, 27 F, 25 R, 38 W saves, and immunity to Disease and Compulsion (so Power Words are useless)? HP is pretty average.

Target his allies and ignore him? Force Cage?

At what level? Level 6 hit him with Kelgore's Grave Mist then run.

Depending on the level there are lots of things to do, but I bet Kelgore's Grave mist is one of the most useful, Also quite possibly Web.

I'd have two level 5 Wizards, and level 7 Wizard, Hit him with Web, Vertigo Field, and Solid Fog all in one round. Then kill everyone else while he moves 5ft a round at best. (Obviously you catch about half the party in the effect with him.)

[Yakk]

Easy trick? Start using defensive combat rolls.

Both sides roll d20. Higher roll wins. Ie, 30 AC is a 10+20. So they roll 20+1d20. The attacker with +10 attack rolls 10+1d20. Defender wins ties. 1s are treated as -10, 20s as 30s.

A defensive roll of 10 or higher means they win. But the total probability works out to 18.5% chance to hit, instead of the standard 5%.

In general, this scales down the importance of modifiers. But it doesn't look like it is just subtracting numbers from the players.

Another rule would be to allow NPCs to take a -2 to damage in exchange for a +1 to hit -- an anti-power-attack.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Pumping Dex that high is going to be even further out of WBL. It comes down to the characters apparently being above WBL, which always leads to trouble, or having good buffs, which is easy to deal with.

Not about being above WBL, it's about using your WBL wisely:

Mithril Chain Shirt +1 2150gp
Elf with 18 in Dex, then +2 racial, then +2 points at level
+1 Masterwork Buckler 1165gp
+1 Natural Armor 2000gp
+1 Deflection 2000gp
+1 Luck 2500gp

That's AC 26 with a small part of WBL, add in a casting of Magic Vestments or Barkskin for to get up to the 30s without much Wealth expenditure.

Similar things can be done for other types of characters.

And the OP clearly states that above 30 was using spells, so this is pretty likely.

Don't immediately jump to complaining about Magic Marts just because you hate the idea of a real economy where people can buy things they need. This isn't Wal-Mart, it's the Enlightment where anyone with enough money could pay for someone to make for him crazy device X to test Y. So can any rich person in D&D find a Wizard who will make for him an expensive magical junk thing.

[Shatenjager]

So yeah, there is a huge magical city in the game so it's not like I can say no without good reason to a reasonable request for an item. The one with truly rediculous AC is a druid/monk who is using shapechange, and spells (such as barkskin) to bring his AC into the stratosphere. The only think I can say is good news about this is that he isn't high damage output but he does an excellent job of putting his large fight form right in the middle of everything and preventing melee opponents from closing with the back ranks.

The other guy is a Abjurant Champion. He's getting almost all of his AC from spells and it's nuts. (yes they stack, yes he has items as well). He's the guy with a stupid high touch attack. His damage output is probably better than anyone else in the party.

I've probably got no problem, as they seem to be having fun. I just like to think that a challenge is more fun than the "you win" game.

[Animefunkmaster]

Some tactics you might consider...
- Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic
- Other debuff spells
- Dex-decreasing effects
- No-save spells (black tentacles, etc)
- Tanglefoot bags
- Exhaustion effects
- Trip them
- Flank them

-Flat Foot them (Surprise Round/grease/marbles)
-Touch Attacks (Grapple works well if your looking for not tailoring the enemies against the pcs)
-Charge Them
-High Ground Bonus (If the enemy can fly that is a sweet +1 for nothing)
-Disarm Attempts (if they lose there weapons whats the point of being untouchable?)
-Rust Monsters (more of a meh for me)
-Antimagic field (goes along with the dispel magic)
-Slowing effects and ranged attacks (Doesn't deal with the high AC but it makes the combat very difficult if they can't move around)
-Wisdom Draining Effects
-Traps (Like fighting in an area where the enemy knows the traps and maneuvers around them while the PCs don't have a clue where they are)
-Buffed up enemies
-Fear Effects
-Invisibility/greater (one time a group of mine had ridiculously AC from a bunch of buffs from an npc, they had to fight an invisible rogue that was flying and it became a standoff of when they could find the square and hit or when the rogue got in a sneak attack... which was actually very fun even though the rogue bit it hard)

Honestly though, once a caster finds a buffed up enemy he should be trying for the dispel check.

[Shatenjager]

- Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic
If I get to a point where an enemy has it and reasonable suspects that they should use it I will go hog wild.

- Other debuff spells
Sure, there just aren't a ton of casters harassing the PCs

- Dex-decreasing effects
Sure... More of the same really (or poisons etc, but they knew to prep for that as they did their research on the plane they went to).

- No-save spells (black tentacles, etc)
Again not alot of casters

- Tanglefoot bags
I've been using spider webs to slow them up, and they work, but I still can't do more than make the combat take longer.

- Exhaustion effects
If they come up, certainly.

- Trip them
Suicidal without the right feats as they will just do a nasty AOO on you.

- Flank them
I do that as much as possible by anything remotely intelligent.

-Flat Foot them (Surprise Round/grease/marbles)
It works, but nothing is packing grease and the druid has a huge spot check.

-Touch Attacks (Grapple works well if your looking for not tailoring the enemies against the pcs)
Provokes and then fails without the right feats. I have tried to do it with things with iterative attacks but that has met with failure (due to combat reflexes).

-Charge Them
It gets done, but but +2 usually takes it down to still needing a 20.

-High Ground Bonus (If the enemy can fly that is a sweet +1 for nothing)
Sure. If it comes up.

-Disarm Attempts (if they lose there weapons whats the point of being untouchable?)
2 problems here. 1st disarming provokes without the right feats. 2nd it just makes them waste an action picking it up. (Sure you get an AOO, but you still need a 20.)

-Rust Monsters (more of a meh for me)
Sir not appearing in this film.

-Antimagic field (goes along with the dispel magic)
Also not appearing.

-Slowing effects and ranged attacks (Doesn't deal with the high AC but it makes the combat very difficult if they can't move around)
So it just makes the game take longer for the NPCs to do nothing.

-Wisdom Draining Effects
I tried this, but it was with Aleps (sp?) who couldn't land the touch attacks.

-Traps (Like fighting in an area where the enemy knows the traps and maneuvers around them while the PCs don't have a clue where they are)
If it comes up.

-Buffed up enemies
They do when they can, but they usually have very little warning.

-Fear Effects
Sure.

-Invisibility/greater (one time a group of mine had ridiculously AC from a bunch of buffs from an npc, they had to fight an invisible rogue that was flying and it became a standoff of when they could find the square and hit or when the rogue got in a sneak attack... which was actually very fun even though the rogue bit it hard)
Sure it's in the same boat as the buffed up enemies though. They are mobile enough that they can get next to a caster in very little time (plus they are in short supply).

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

The problem is your module. A well built Abjurant Champion build could solo 90% of WotC modules no problem. Add in four punching bags and he'd do well, add in decent characters and it's not a challenge anymore.

Modules are built by people who don't understand D&D.

Bring in casters, bring in traps during the fight, bring in spellcasting monsters that hit them with Fear/Fatigue/Exhaustion/Dex damage/Dispels/entangle effects.

You really have to bring these things in yourself, because modules are really built for people who just started playing D&D yesterday, and so decent tactics against well built or well played characters (not and, just or) would result in complete decimation.

[Tehnar]

Just a reminder, mage armor and grater mage armor do not get their AC increased form levels in abjurant champion (as they are conjurations, not abjurations, and yes its wrong what it says in the book(about mage armor)).

Also unless druid has acces to wild or beastskin armor, I dont know how he can get all that AC. The best thing for AC as a druid was a fleshraker, and i didnt get over 30 at lvl 10, but its dmg pretty much sucked then. Though its still a broken form.


Insead of using monsters from a modules, substitute some similar monsters from the manuals. Make them fear stuff with improved grab. Dragons are also nice, especially in their territory. Fighting a black dragon in a swamp with lots of water for the dragon to dive in and wait for his maximised breath weapon to recharge. Play monsters smart. Anything with more then 10 int should be able to make the same tactical decisions as your players. When generating hordes of treasure, let monsters use them.

Remember more weak monsters are better then one strong one. And the CR system should be eyeballed not precisly calculated..

[Adumbration]

Should I be concerned by the fact that my character has AC of 40 at level 12?

With a psion? (Of course, to get it up to 40, I need a few rounds to buff up before fight. Otherwise it's just 30. Touch AC is about 20ish. Did I forget to mention 20% miss chance? Quickened Freedom of Movement? Granted, he only has 43 hitpoints, so if anyone does get a hit in, he's a dead fire elf.)

I may have to gimp my character if it looks like he's going to dominate.

EDIT:

For the curious how on earth I got that much AC:

Ring of protection +3
Amulet of Natural armor +3
Dex 16 (+3)
Defending +1 dagger
Ioun stone (+1 AC)
Inertial Armor (+10 to AC for 13 hours with Overchannel)
Force Screen (+10 to AC for 13 minutes)
Concealing amorpha (20% miss chance)

So, I'm looking at AC of 41.

[Frosty]

You should be concerned that a True-Striked Orb of <whatever> will leave you with 1 hp on average if fired by a level 12 caster. At level 12, he can also Empower the Orb for a pretty much guaranteed kill.

[tyckspoon]

EDIT:

For the curious how on earth I got that much AC:

Ring of protection +3
Amulet of Natural armor +3
Dex 16 (+3)
Defending +1 dagger
Ioun stone (+1 AC)
Inertial Armor (+10 to AC for 13 hours with Overchannel)
Force Screen (+10 to AC for 13 minutes)
Concealing amorpha (20% miss chance)

So, I'm looking at AC of 41.

I think you have a classic Psionics Does Not Work That Way here. This rule, in particular, gets overlooked by a lot of people who come up with supposedly broken psionic builds..

The more power points you spend, the more powerful the manifestation. However, you can spend only a total number of points on a power equal to your manifester level,

Force Screen augments at 4 points/ 1 AC; you have to be Epic to augment it to +10 (+6 augment =24 extra power points.) Although you can still get it to +7, I think, if you Overchannel.

[Skaven]

I find an AC of 15+ your level is usually the golden point to aim for as a melee.