How strong should the police be?

[Number 6]

It's a problem that I run into a lot in RPGs. If the town's police are too weak, evil player characters can get away with anything and their players start acting immature. I think it's necessary that the town guards, militia, whatever are stronger than the party.

If the local police are tough enough to smack down out of control PCs, the players sometimes start saying "If the police are so much higher level than we are, why don't they go get rid of the ogres? They're breaking the law, too"

If the local police won't do the party's work for them because they don't have evidence, the players whine "They didn't have any evidence that I stole the town treasury either. You're not being fair."

Any solution to this problem? Other than just saying "Good alignments only?" I also don't like the "wandering high level NPC comes by just when the party gets out of hand" solution either. It's a bit contrived.

[Spiryt]

If the local police are tough enough to smack down out of control PCs, the players sometimes start saying "If the police are so much higher level than we are, why don't they go get rid of the ogres? They're breaking the law, too"

I suppose that gving police specifing builds - to incapacitate people, not to kill monsters, - would help. You know, a lot of grapple, trips, disarms. Like actual police forces everywhere, everywhene.

Good tactic (cooperation, reach weapon, nets, attacks of opp).

Of course it depends what you want to have. I suppose that City Guard in Waterdeep would be as I said - highly proffesional ec. Guards in some province towns would indeed be just group of poorly organized thugs.

[snoopy13a]

The strength of the town guard is in numbers. Additionally, the local noble has a responsibility to protect the local villages.

If the players get really out of control send in a posse to hunt them made up of:

1) The Local Noble (Mid-level fighter)

2) The Noble's retainers (Low to Mid Fighters)

3) The Town Guard (mostly low level fighters, a mid level or two)

4) The Town Guard from the surrounding towns

5) A group of concerned citizens (commoners)

6) Good-Aligned NPC Adventurers who happen to be in town (Mid level in any classes)

7) Priests from the local temple (one or two mid level clerics, a couple of low level ones

8) The local wizard (low to mid level wizard)

A small group of the town guard can be beatable but if the players decide to attack the guard, have the entire district form up a large posse and begin to hunt down the players. Strongly suggest that the players flee for their lives outside the country. If not, have the posse wipe them out.

[Dausuul]

It's a problem that I run into a lot in RPGs. If the town's police are too weak, evil player characters can get away with anything and their players start acting immature. I think it's necessary that the town guards, militia, whatever are stronger than the party.

If the local police are tough enough to smack down out of control PCs, the players sometimes start saying "If the police are so much higher level than we are, why don't they go get rid of the ogres? They're breaking the law, too"

If the local police won't do the party's work for them because they don't have evidence, the players whine "They didn't have any evidence that I stole the town treasury either. You're not being fair."

Any solution to this problem? Other than just saying "Good alignments only?" I also don't like the "wandering high level NPC comes by just when the party gets out of hand" solution either. It's a bit contrived.

I favor having a city watch that's individually weaker than the PCs, but there are a heck of a lot more of them, enough to swarm the party under if need be.

[horseboy]

Well, there's desk cops, beat cops, homicide detectives, SWAT, CSI (cause a couple of clerics and a mage will solve SO many crimes in D&D). Each one would be a different level and different classes. SWAT is what you roll out to keep PC's in line. They don't leave town because they don't have jurisdiction.

[Chronos]

The police could go clean out that den of ogres, but then who would protect the town while they're gone? Their responsibilities lie in the city, not in the surrounding wilderness.

Also, part of the advantage the police have is information: They have patrols, watch-houses, informants, etc. that can tell them where a miscreant lives, what their daily routine is like, who they do business with, etc. But this information network only extends within the city. So they can arrest the adventurers, if need be, by catching them sleeping, not by being outright superior.

Finally, in any D&D world, adventurers themselves are going to be a significant portion of any civilized nation's security forces. Your PCs are disturbing the peace of the city too much? Then the duke hires some other band of adventurers to take out the menace. And the more trouble you cause, the more the duke will be willing to pay the heroes, so the more powerful heroes he'll get. They don't just happen by; they're there precisely because they're getting paid to be, because of what you're doing.

[SamTheCleric]

Only as strong as Sting makes them.

... What?

[TheThan]

how about a swat team designed to deal with adventurers out to cause undo mischief?

where normal police deal with day to day crime, the swat team deals with adventurers that can bend the laws of physics. as far as how powerful should they be? well that depends on how powerful your pcs are.

[Pie Guy]

Or you could warn them that when they distract the campaign too much by nuking towns, suddenly all the magic items and side quests are gone, and when they fight the BBEG, they just get killed outright from lack ofexperience.

Later, when they're annoyed, you can say that they shouldn't have destroyed the town. And then maybe find some new friends, because the old ones will probably have left.

[Flawless]

how about a swat team designed to deal with adventurers out to cause undo mischief?

where normal police deal with day to day crime, the swat team deals with adventurers that can bend the laws of physics. as far as how powerful should they be? well that depends on how powerful your pcs are.

Okay, but then why not send this swat team to kill the ogre instead of the PCs?

[BardicDuelist]

I have groups of adventurers who specializing in dealing with rogue groups of adventurers (basically, what the PCs normally do with the BBEG).

Dispel/Counterspell Master (Warlock or Sorcerer)
Spell Thief (not a great PC class, but a great enemy)
Trip/Disarm/Sunder Master
Etc.

They are basically PCs, but not played by the players. Where the PCs would normally be the ones dealing with a rogue wizard or maurauding merc. band, now, since they are the maurauding threat, they have to face people like themselves.

I hope that made sense. Basically, make a group of PCs, twink them out as much as you would let your players twink a character out, and have them be the problem.

Don't try to railroad with this, but make it a significant threat so that they players don't feel that they can do whatever they like.

[holywhippet]

Begin by deciding what level the average person in the game world is. Level 3 is a good estimate for an average world. Next ask yourself how dangerous living in the city/town is. If the guards see regular action against bandits/monsters etc. then raise their level by an appropriate amount. Now consider the wealth and politics of the city. Under a wealthy, benevolent ruler the guards are more likely to have high quality equipment, possibly even magical equipment for the higher ranking officers.

Finally, don't forget mercenaries. If the guard runs into something they can't handle, they are likely to hire someone to deal with it.

[Lupy]

Well, if you go with the (N)PC party, think linear guild, so the party is really challenged, have them sneak up, team up, and then beat up.


The posse idea is better, but the clerics should be one mid and the rest low, maybe with a few temple guard warriors. And use warriors over fighters except for the noble...

Or have an adventuring Paladin with a challenging CR show up and whup it up on them, then throw them in prison after taking away all their stolen goods.

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, but then why not send this swat team to kill the ogre instead of the PCs?

1) The ogre's aren't bothering the town's citizens; they're bothering the traveling merchants who go through that pass. It's not the king that hires you - it's the local merchants association.
2) The swat team charges more per outing for something that's not an immediate threat.
3) The swat team isn't so much an on-call swat team as another band of adventurers who take bounties. They're stronger than the party, but they also charge more.

[snoopy13a]

Okay, but then why not send this swat team to kill the ogre instead of the PCs?

It is probably more cost-effective to use PC adventureres.

Suppose a few town guardsmen lose their lives. The town loses the investment they made in training the guards. Plus, the town has the problem of supporting the families of the deceased. This cost will probably be more expensive then whatever bounty they'd offer to adventurers.

Why not just post a bounty that any adventurer can collect? If a couple of PCs or even the entire party die, who cares? They don't live in the town or have any roots in the community. If the PCs succeed, then it is money well spent. If the PCs don't succeed, the town owes nothing and another group of adventurers should get the job done.

[Smiley_]

Frankly, there should always be consequenses for gross stupidity. The chaotic stupid, er evil wizard begins to start bombing a small town with fireballs and beteor swarms. There is always someone more powerfull, be it an anti-magic specialist team (many counterspells, forcecage, feeblemind from many directions) or the epic-level wizard and his brother who are also the king's advisors can do a quick teleport and obliterate this wizard in two turns.

The local athorities, I feel, should be on par with the PCs at the least.

In a small town, the guards may be dispatched handily by the PCs

The guards and soldiers from a nearby outpost arrive, putting more pressure on the PCs. The PCs are still winning. Now what? This is enough time for messages to get back and forth between some of the larger cities and the outposts. A group of Wizards and skilled fighters teleport in with an anti-magic field to prevent escape through teleportation on the PCs and proceed to neutralize them.

They are captured and scentenced to death for mass homicide. Game Over

[AslanCross]

If the town watch/guard/militia is important enough to figure in the plot, then they should be as strong or as weak as they need to be for the PCs to affect them reasonably.

I think Neverwinter Nights 2 did this reasonably well. If you joined the Watch, it was mired in corrupt elements who were either deliberately doing it for profit or were just too afraid to stand up to the corrupt ones. Any straight-laced cops were too weak to really work against lawless elements properly. Depending on how well the PCs do, they can turn around the tide of corruption and actually make the Watch do its job right.

I've never really played the other route, where the PCs join the thieves' guild, but you end up going against the Watch, which in that case is still big and organized enough to give a series of challenging encounters.

[FireFox]

I personally like to say that "No the guard cannot fight the ogres, they have to keep the peace, which is why they contracted you to do it, duh"

[TheCountAlucard]

The strength of city guards is directly proportional to the size of the city. That's why small towns (which are a poor choice for evil adventurers to prey upon) are so constantly in danger by ogres, while the denizens of a large metropolis don't have to worry about evil adventurers.

And, of course, there's always the option of hiring mercenaries...

[Aquillion]

If the PCs act up occasionally, there's not much you can do. It's part of the perks of being a PC. Local town guards are generally not going to be very strong (if they even exist.)

But if they do it regularly, and make a nuisance of themselves, then it's fair to have people start trying to hunt them down. The exact form this takes could depend on the world.

In Eberron, say, or someplace like it (relatively civilized and organized), if they did things that seriously disrupted trade they would quickly attract the ire of the major houses or factions that depend on it. That world might not have high-level characters, but it has something even worse -- good communications and transportation, so a group of players might find endless swarms of decently-equipped mid-level characters looking for them (and sharing gossip on their tactics, etc, so after a few fights you can have the enemies start to adapt to any of their tricks.) Plus, professional bounty hunters are likely to be optimized for duels with PCs.

In worlds with high-level characters, the players might eventually step on someone's toes. Maybe one of those townsfolk they just murdered was Elminster's second cousin or something (or your world's Elminster equivalent). You should not pull this out just because the players are occasionally doing bad things (then it would feel fake), but if they keep burning down towns and murdering everyone in sight they'll eventually kill / hurt / steal from someone they shouldn't have.

Robbing banks is much easier to punish. Banks have money in them because wealthy, important people put money in them. Wealthy, important people have wealthy, important friends... if the PCs rob the head bank of a major metropolis, well, where exactly do you think that town's highest-level caster keeps his cash? Which businessmen have the best lines of communication to the high priest and so on?

Now, speaking of religions, it's obviously very bad form to have deities stepping in left and right... but if the PCs rob a major temple, kill important priests, or do things like that, eventually the deity is going to get involved. Probably not personally, but they're more than capable of sending nasty challenges after the PCs. What if the PCs refuse to obligingly offend a deity? Well, the thing is, NPCs know the PCs won't want to offend a deity -- they might call in a major priest in the local religion for help, say. If the PCs kill them, then you have an excuse to throw all sorts of things at them; at the very least, they should realize that killing the equivalent of an major bishop in the local religion is a big problem in all sorts of ways.

At the very least, once the PCs have won the enmity of a major religion you'll have all sorts of plot hooks.

[Benejeseret]

I like the police to be just above the average citizen (npc warriors). Can they smack down the PC's....no

But if the PC's commit a crime and a warrior NPC tells for them to halt they can easily kill him. BUT, that warrior (peace officer) has the support of the entire town and a small legion of other officers who (knowing you are a cop killer) begin to use extreme measures and call on community support to take you down.

Reoutation (warrents, etc) play a big role as noone will sell to you, noone will let you in their Inns, everyone rats you out. Eventually, bounty hunters (or the nations version of KGB/FBI/SWAT) start to come after the party and they are PC classed, well armed, and using tactics to the extreme.

Spellwarp sniper empowered headshot.

Artificer tactical squad metamagic spell trigger wand of fireballs shotgun.

[Neon Knight]

Yay! A chance for me to employ my power model!

Power relations in roleplaying games where the PCs are the force of change are as follows:

Bystanders < Problem < PCs (Agents of Change)

Note that this measures ability to solve the problem power, not power in the combat sense. A schoolgirl is less powerful in conventional combat than a SWAT team, but might have more power to solve the problem than said SWAT team. (i.e. if she had the ability to see and speak with the dead, thus allowing her to calm spirits that the SWAT team are unable to affect.) Likewise, an entity that could kill any humanoid type creature (but cannot affect any creature of any other type) might be more combat powerful against a group of Human PCs, but he will have less ability to solve the problem if the problem is an Outsider type.

When the PCs start doing things like killing guards and townsfolk, they leave the model, or at least gain a new role within the model. They are now the problem. You can take this train of thought to its logical conclusion.

But honestly, gaining OOC player compliance and consent is more worthwhile than any in-game wrangling. You should let the PCs pursue the goals they want to, within reason; Everyone should be having fun, and nobody should leave the boundaries of good taste as set by your group.

[TempusCCK]

I'm a firm believer in the "If the PC's can do it, so can anyone else." PC's causing havok in a town, well, then eventually good aligned NPC's are coming for them.

[LibraryOgre]

how about a swat team designed to deal with adventurers out to cause undo mischief?

where normal police deal with day to day crime, the swat team deals with adventurers that can bend the laws of physics. as far as how powerful should they be? well that depends on how powerful your pcs are.

Actually, I was about to point to the Waterdeep supplement, which includes such a group. High-level adventurers whom the city keeps on retainer to deal with threats beyond the watch's ability to handle.

[Aquillion]

When the PCs start doing things like killing guards and townsfolk, they leave the model, or at least gain a new role within the model. They are now the problem. You can take this train of thought to its logical conclusion.

Not really. It's exactly the same, when you get down to it... you're looking at the model the wrong way.

The model is more appropriately: Players have goals, there are monsters between them and the goals, they slaughter the monsters and win.

When the players go 'bad', that just means they're facing different monsters (teams of Paladins, creatures sent by high-level wizards pissed off at the players making trouble near their towers, agents of whatever the local power or authorities are); the overall effect should be the same.

Let the players do whatever they want in that regard. The important part is to ensure that they keep meeting appropriate challenges on the route to their goals. Whether that goal is grabbing loot from the depths of the dungeon or grabbing loot from the king's treasury doesn't make any difference at all... you just need a slightly different mindset.

However, if the players are behaving like outlaws, it's important to give them the feel of being outlaws; your world will start to feel fake without it anyway. As they become more famous, people should run on sight, towns should close their gates and hire help whenever they hear they're in the neighborhood, etc, etc, etc.

I don't think you need a specific swat team (although that can work, too). Just think things through to the logical conclusion. Who are the 'higher-up' powers in your world? Who stands to lose if the players cause problems, disrupt trade, ruin harvests by killing commoners, etc? Does your world have religious authorities that are going to object?

You should start on a local scale and work your way up, making it clear that there's always someone one level higher. If the players rob one merchant and beat up a few guards, it isn't likely to be a big deal; but if they're making a lot of fuss regularly, the local administrators (local priests, mayors, local lords, etc) are going to object and call on their resources to stop them. Even those resources aren't probably going to be too much... but here's the important part. In my experience, many DMs make the mistake of turning every town into an isolated island, where what you do in that town, stays in that town. Don't do that. It's not realistic anyway, unless the players are on the frontier or something (where some lawlessness is expected).

The local lords and mayors have superiors. If they can't pay taxes, those superiors will be upset and ask what's wrong. If even a mere parish priest or cleric gets killed, there's going to be people higher-up in the faith who are going to have to send a replacement, and they'll want to know what's up. If they keep getting the same answers about the same people, they're going to want to deal with the problem. This chain just keeps going up until you get to the highest-level people in your world (if the PCs are the highest level people in your world, put some other high-level people in your world or throw high-ranking religious opponents at the PCs until they've done enough damage and killed enough important priests to realistically warrant some degree of divine intervention.)

Also: The OP mentioned something about the players complaining about evidence and trials. Don't do those. Make it clear that while there might be local justice, once you've pissed off someone important evidence doesn't matter anymore. Unless you're in Eberron or someplace similar, most D&D worlds are places where those in power make their own justice. This is another reason to get religion involved, too; they can speak to the dead, consult their god, or or even resurrect that priest the PCs just killed, if they want. Major religions aren't going to have much trouble accessing divinations, so if you put those in the PCs path then they're not going to have many excuses to avoid getting caught eventually.

[Yahzi]

I'm a firm believer in the "If the PC's can do it, so can anyone else." PC's causing havok in a town, well, then eventually good aligned NPC's are coming for them.

Exactly. When the PCs start killing the townsfolk, they're doing more damage than the ogres out in the woods. So they become somebody else's adventure.

In my world the local ruler is the highest level person around (6th-9th PC class). He has an army of mooks. He lets the PCs go after the ogres because if he goes after them, it could be a trap - there could be something hiding behind the ogres. High-level people are worth a lot of XP, so they have to worry about other high-level monsters coming after them. Instead, he sends out appropriate level people to beat up the ogres, because it's not worth any other high-level's time to jump them (and besides, they could be a trap!). Only when the dragon shows up does the ruler come out to play - and the dragon is playing the same game, sending in his mooks to try and flush the ruler out.

[Caewil]

The police don't have to be powerful. Just make them wanted men so that nobody will want to buy their loot. Or sell them magical items. Then where is their adventuring gear going to come from? They'll either have to shape up or join team evil.

[Number 6]

How would you suggest handling it if the PCs break some minor laws? For example, most cities ban armor and weapons larger than a rapier inside city limits. Are they going to call out the SWAT Team because this obnoxoius fighter won't check his +4 Great Sword at the door?

[Frosty]

They'll either have to shape up or join team evil.

Probably the 2nd choice, if they're slaughtering towns. At team evil, they'll have the support of an evil deity, so if they're doing enough evil, the evil deity will protect them from a good deity's horrific vengeance, and hell, even reward them with extra abilities, equipment, concubines, etc. Just because good towns will stop selling to you doesn't mean you're cut off. you just gotta go to a different town.

Or, attack and loot the town. You're evil, and you possibly have the support of an evil religion/organization behind you. Go do some pillaging and slaughtering! How else will we have Blood for the Blood God?

[Rutee]

How would you suggest handling it if the PCs break some minor laws? For example, most cities ban armor and weapons larger than a rapier inside city limits. Are they going to call out the SWAT Team because this obnoxoius fighter won't check his +4 Great Sword at the door?

Just.. don't have that law. Honestly in a setting where a Fighter can reasonably walk around in a +4 (AKA beings of power exist high enough that make them and sell them), and can reasonably be challenged, the cops probably /want/ the PCs to keep their equipment; First there's the good sense of appeasing people who can smack you down militarily, but there's also the problem of "What if, as unlikely as it is, an Uber-monster that they normally fight shows up here?"

There's also the fact that such a law, to me, only seems likely to cause problems in the first place. It may enrich the experience, I suppose, but given how your group seems to behave, it's really just asking for trouble without making the game feel better. So just.. don't have those laws. Even if it makes sense IC, if it's much OOC trouble it's not worth it (probably).