Turn Undead Revison.

[Kizara]

Now, the current turn undead system is ackward, inconsistant with the rest of the system and very inelegant.

So, I have a new, quite simple idea:


Revised Turn Undead Rules:

1) New 'turning check' is simply a value of your cleric level (or equivilent cleric level for the purpose of Turning) + half your charisma modifier. No refering to a table, or rolling for that matter.


2) Turning Damage Check is the same. I wanted to change this, but honestly I can't change a 2d6 roll into a 1d20 roll with it directly effecting HD like it does.


Benefits:

1) No table.

2) One roll.

3) IMO relatively about as effective as current version (Not unbalanced).

4) Intuitive and easy to understand.

5) Scales appropriately.

6) Items and abilities that boost Turning ability work the same way as they did before, and in fact are maybe a bit more effective (a plus IMO).

Cons:

1) Doesn't use a d20 mechanic, so a bit out of touch and thus inconsistant with other game mechanics. However, this is necessary as you can't apply a d20 roll directly against HD because the 1-20 varience is way too high.

............

I had another option, to simply make it an cone-shaped positive energy attack where Undead would have to roll a Fort. save against a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifer. That could work, but would be a signifigantly 'dirtier' solution.

Any other opinions or refinement? Even "Yes I love your system and have nothing more to add" would be useful to me, and of course any criticism is welcome.

[DracoDei]

Looks a much too reliable against single nasty undead. That is what the first part of the exist system keeps from happening (which is basically what you dropped out).

[Kizara]

Looks a much too reliable against single nasty undead. That is what the first part of the exist system keeps from happening (which is basically what you dropped out).

You're right, I thought it over a bit more and revised it. I still managed to ditch the table.

[Rizban]

I like it. It's fairly intuitive. I might throw this out there for our next session to see if we can get a feel for it in actual play. The removal of the random factor in the turn check may be a bit unbalancing, but that really doesn't seem to be that much of an issue, especially since it makes sense for a more powerful cleric to be better at turning undead. You might want to add in that regardless of what inane buffs a cleric might have, it's impossible to turn an undead more than 4 HD about a character's effective cleric level.

This also makes bolstering undead a static number. I would suggest making the HD determination on bolster check as 1d6-2. This keeps the +4 HD max intact from the current table but also strengthens the bolster proportionately to the new turning check by raising the chance of bolstering from ~40% to ~67%.

Dispelling turning is another issue to consider with the static turning numbers, as the stronger cleric will always win. I'm not certain how to deal with this one though. Perhaps someone else will have more insight in the matter.

[Level20Commoner]

A cone? I think a burst would work pretty well. I'm thinking a 'disintegrate'-like effect. All undead in a X ft burst centered on you must make a Fortitude save (DC Y) or be blasted from existence. Undead who make their saves take Z damage instead. A cleric's level would increase his variables for the size of the burst, the save DC to avoid destruction, and the damage dealt on a successful save. Also, using multiple turn undead attempts at once would allow a cleric to increase any of the previous three values. I always found it insulting that the best the gods of goodness and light could do to undead was a) destroy them, b) make them flee, or c) nothing at all. And let clerics and paladins be turnable as well, says I. I quite agree with you in principle, though. Any class feature whose utilization cannot be reliably remembered (even if it is used infrequently) should be simplified or streamlined.

[DracoDei]

What is so wimpy about destroying them? And in many cases, making them flee is better than doing hp damage I think...

[Rizban]

I always found it insulting that the best the gods of goodness and light could do to undead was a) destroy them, b) make them flee, or c) nothing at all.

It's not necessarily the only thing they can do. Those are just the only things they allow their clerics to do.

[arkanis]

I had a different revision of my own. Turn/Rebuke never struck me as a very powerful or useful ability. In fact, it struck me as more of a spell:

Turn/Rebuke Undead
Abjuration [Good or Evil]
Level: Clr 1, Pal/Blc 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60-ft.
Radius: Cone-shaped burst
Targets: A number of hit dice worth of undead equal to 2 × caster level
Duration: Instantaneous and 5 rounds + 1 round/ 2 levels (see text)
Saving Throw: Will for half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
The good version of this spell requires all undead creatures in the area must succeed on a Will save or be turned for the duration of this spell. Undead whose hit dice are half or less than the caster’s effective caster level are destroyed instead of turned, unless they pass the save in which case they are turned normally. This spell can affect a maximum number of hit dice worth of targets equal to 2 × caster level (weakest creatures targeted first).
The evil version of this spell works the same way except that undead are rebuked instead of turned and commanded instead of destroyed.
Neutral casters must choose the good or evil version of this spell when it is learned or prepared.
Divine Focus: A holy symbol of the caster's deity.

[Shishnarfne]

Expedition to Castle Ravenloft features another alternate turning mechanism (Lightbringer Cleric) which deals 1d6 of damage per cleric level to Undead within 30 ft. (Will Save DC 10+cleric level+Cha for half... I have used half cleric level, myself, in games where I've used the variant). Most of the Improved Turning abilities work normally, but I've usually had to houserule the Sun Domain Greater Turning (e.g. remove save for half). Turn Resistance reduces the damage dealt by an amount equal to the Turn Resistance (I might think that the reduction rate should be increased, myself).

This is slightly more effective than the normal variant in two cases: a) there are a whole lot of undead around that you want to weaken rather than hit with an all or nothing attack or b) there was no way you were turning that particular undead creature normally.

It is weaker if you want to break up an encounter or face undead with many HP relative to their hit dice. Generally, I consider this variant less powerful most of the time, but the mechanics are simpler, and it has a different effect.

That said, a cleric who specializes in this form of turning is still quite effective against undead.