CR vs. LA

[Crazy Scot]

Does anyone know how CR relates to LA? I know that they are usually similar to each other when adding a template, but sometimes one is slightly higher than the other.

In the DMG it says that if you add levels in a PC class to a monster you increase its CR by an equal amount. Thus a monster with CR 2 + 5 levels of Fighter would become a CR 7 creature. But what happens the other way around? If you add a CR +2 template to something, why doesn't it always relate to an equivalent LA +2?

Am I just overthinking this too much? It would make sense to me that if you add levels to something and get an equal boost to CR, then conversely if you add CR to something it should be the equivalent of adding levels to it. Can anyone out there explain why CR and LA are different sometimes?

[Nebo_]

CR is for DMs, LA is for players. Don't try to relate them.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Some powers are more effective in the hands of players, other powers are more effective in the hands of encounters. Greater Invisibility 2x per day in an enemy is nearly identical in terms of difficulty to Greater Invisibility at-will, but having it at-will is much better for a player than having it 2x per day.

Also, minor nitpick: It's LA+HD if you are making a PC.

[kamikasei]

CR is a guess and LA is a kludge. Neither have any consistent math or reasoning behind them, they're constructed out of guidelines, testing, and eyeballing, and serve different purposes. Neither is entirely consistent with itself so there's no point trying to reconcile them perfectly with one another.

As to why and how they usually differ, Sstoopidtallkid has the right of it. CR measures how hard an opponent something is for a party. LA supposedly represents the worth (to a player) in levels of the special abilities a thing has. Opponents tend to be short-lived once they come to the party's attention and even if they're recurring villains they don't get the same screen time or opportunity to use their abilities.

[Talic]

Also, not all HD are created equal. Imagine a 22 HD vermin with a bite attack that had a poison with Str damage, with DC based on the creature's Con.

Now, imagine a 22 HD Outsider with the same attack. The outsider will have better skills, better attack bonus, better saves, and so on. Thus, the CR of the outsider will be higher.

CR must factor in more than the abilities. It must factor in the creature type, skill points, special abilities. attack bonus, skill check potential and damage potential, and compare that to what a party of 4 could get. If the hide check is better than the caster or rogue can spot, the CR may be a bit low. If it's more than 20 above, it probably is.

If the damage can kill an 18 con barb in 2 hits? The CR's a bit low, likely.

If the monster has an ability that the PC's cannot counter at their level, then the CR is a bit low, likely. For example, flight can be countered with ranged weaponry, the Web spell, and the like. Especially since low CR flight enounters feature enemies that don't have good ranged weaponry.

[leperkhaun]

If you add a CR +2 template to something, why doesn't it always relate to an equivalent LA +2?

Am I just overthinking this too much? It would make sense to me that if you add levels to something and get an equal boost to CR, then conversely if you add CR to something it should be the equivalent of adding levels to it. Can anyone out there explain why CR and LA are different sometimes?

Well in general PC levels = 1 CR per level.....even if its not quite true (a 20th level bard and a 20th level wizard arnt the same CR).

As to why CR does not + LA. Its because in general CR represents the challange that monster/group of monsters is to a party of adventurers. So for some things that are +CR it increases the challange against a party while a similar +LA may not be that powerfull.

Anyway remember CR is a general outline on how tough a monster is, and it should be taken as a suggestion as things like party makeup, power level of the party, and the individual critter can cause the CR of a monster to be higher or lower.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Didn't we just have this conversation ?

PCs have no CR. A 5th-level human fighter NPC is CR 5, but a 5th-level human fighter PC has no CR, and is more powerful than the NPC, due to wealth disparity (equipment being a crucial element of CR calculations).

LA is different from CR adjustments because some powers are appropriate for monsters and not appropriate for PCs. (See the efreet's wish power, or the zodar, or any low-HD flying creature...)

[Jothki]

I would assume that LA also assumes that the creature is conserving its abilities to last through about four encounters, while CR assumes that the creature is going nova because it is supposed to immediately die. If an ability is unlimited-use or always-on, then that would add significantly more to LA than to CR since it wouldn't need to be conserved.