Stupid Power attack question

[Zocelot]

How does Supreme Power Attack (Frenzied Berzerker feature), Leap Attack, and Combat Brute stack when Power Attacking with a two handed weapon.

I understand how normal stacking works, but because your damage bonus is 1.5 times your attack penalty, I don't see how to stack this. Thanks.

[Nebo_]

because your damage bonus is 1.5 times your attack penalty

No, it isn't.

[Matthew]

Can o' worms. Basically, some people think it stacks so that things occasionally double, others apply it in a less extreme way. I think the faq suggested one way and then the other.

I would probably stack it as 5:1 [i.e. for every 1 point of BAB you drop, you get +5 Damage]

[Zocelot]

No, it isn't.

Actually, you get a +3 bonus for every -2 penalty. Simple math places that at 1.5.

[AmberVael]

Supreme Power Attack deals double the penalty. Improved Power Attack deals 1.5, Zocelot.

[Nebo_]

Actually, you get a +3 bonus for every -2 penalty. Simple math places that at 1.5.

No, you don't. Read the Errata for leap attack.

EDIT: Ah, you were talking about improved power attack. You're still wrong, though. It says you get a +3 bonus for every -2 you take. It doesn't give you the option to get +1.5 damage for every -1. D&D doesn't work with fractional HP.

[Zocelot]

Ok, I have the book in front of me, and I was wrong.
Congratulations to you all.

[AmberVael]

Okay, lets put it like this.
You have Supreme Power Attack and a two-handed weapon. As stated directly in Complete Warrior, Supreme Power Attack + two-handed weapon = 4 extra damage per -1 penalty.
The errata doesn't change how two handed weapons with supreme power attack works, and it is generally assumed (from what I've read), due to the way multipliers work, that when you combine it with leap attack it will give a return of 6 damage per penalty.

Edit: No, wait, or was it five?
Argh. Stupid complications. >.<

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hokay, let's try this again...

As per Eratta, when you have a 2X on a 2X, you get a 3X not a 4X. Basically, you add (x-1) to the multiplier, rather than adding them all up, or multiplying them.

Power Attack with a 2 handed weapon is 2x the penalty on your attack. That's Core. 1.5 is for one handed weapons.


Supreme Power Attack increases this to 4x according to the book, although it should be 3x.

Leap Attack increases this to 5X.

Of course, you do this to the full extend, then use Shock Trooper to switch out attack penalty for AC penalty. Then find a way to Pounce for a full attack on a charge. For maximum effect, do this with a Spiked Chain, while in a Large or larger size, with Improved Trip, Karmic Strike, and Combat Reflexes.

Have a nice day.

[Keld Denar]

ok...there are 2 abilities. 1 is Improved PA, which gives 1.5:1 return with a 1hander and 3:1 with a 2 hander. Supreme PA gives 2:1 with a 1 hander and 4:1 with a 2 hander.

Then, Combat Brute gives you a 1.5:1 return on the round after you charge with a 1 hander, or 3:1 with a 2 hander.

Then, Leap Attack gives a 100% increase on your PA return.

I'd say that Improved/Supreme PA would stack with Combat Brute using normal multiplier rules, or (4x +3x = 6x) 6:1 with a 2 hander with Supreme and CB. Then, Leap Attack increase that by 100% (worded wonky....everything else in D&D gives multipliers, wtf are they doing adding a percentage?) for 12:1 PA return, that means you for every -1 you take to hit, you gain 12:1 return on PA the round after you charge.

Then, if you crit, or do something else that has a multipler that adds to your end weapon damage (Valorous Weapon Enhancement), you would add that on afterwards, since those multipliers check total static damage + weapon damage). Therefore, if you crit on the round after a charge with a Heavy Pick, you would be dealing 48:1 + 4x base weapon damage + 6x strength.

Stupid, I hope they eliminate stacking multipliers in 4th ed, because this just makes the numbers turn crazy....a fightbarbzerker with full BAB would deal 960 damage just from a full PA the round after a charge with a crit, before any of the other multipliers. Thats just plain stupid.

[Zocelot]

Then along comes Jimmy the Rogue, who has Elusive target, and your entire strategy is useless.

[Hal]

Then, Leap Attack gives a 100% increase on your PA return.

. . .

Stupid, I hope they eliminate stacking multipliers in 4th ed, because this just makes the numbers turn crazy....a fightbarbzerker with full BAB would deal 960 damage just from a full PA the round after a charge with a crit, before any of the other multipliers. Thats just plain stupid.

By the errata, Leap Attack DOES give 100% return on whatever PA damage is done by the attack.

And how is that any more "stupid" than wizards with a "DC 35 save or you die" spell?

[Matthew]

Ok, I have the book in front of me, and I was wrong.

So... which were you referring to with the 1.5 thing? Improved Power Attack? Combat Brute?

Anyway, are you the DM or Player for this?

Okay, lets put it like this.
You have Supreme Power Attack and a two-handed weapon. As stated directly in Complete Warrior, Supreme Power Attack + two-handed weapon = 4 extra damage per -1 penalty.
The errata doesn't change how two handed weapons with supreme power attack works, and it is generally assumed (from what I've read), due to the way multipliers work, that when you combine it with leap attack it will give a return of 6 damage per penalty.

Edit: No, wait, or was it five?
Argh. Stupid complications. >.<

Yeah, that's the way a lot of people read it. I can't remember where they suggested otherwise, but I'd definitely go with a 5:1 return. That said, I think Combat Brute would up that to 6:1 (I was thinking of Improved Power Attack earlier).

I would read it as:

One Handed

Power Attack = 1:1
Power Attack + Leap Attack = 2:1
Power Attack + Combat Brute* = 2:1
Power Attack + Combat Brute* + Leap Attack = 3:1
Improved Power Attack = 2:1
Improved Power Attack + Combat Brute + Leap Attack = 4:1
Supreme Power Attack = 3:1
Supreme Power Attack + Combat Brute + Leap Attack = 5:1

* One Handed Combat Brute gives only 1.5:1 I would ignore that, it's stupid, especially when Two Handed Combat Brute gives 3:1

Two Handed

Power Attack = 2:1
Power Attack + Leap Attack = 3:1
Power Attack + Combat Brute = 3:1
Power Attack + Combat Brute + Leap Attack = 4:1
Improved Power Attack = 3:1
Improved Power Attack + Combat Brute + Leap Attack = 5:1
Supreme Power Attack = 4:1
Supreme Power Attack + Combat Brute + Leap Attack = 6:1

Then along comes Jimmy the Rogue, who has Elusive target, and your entire strategy is useless.

Jimmy the Rogue? You been watching Superman reruns and having flashbacks to D&D the Movie?

[Keld Denar]

So... which were you referring to with the 1.5 thing? Improved Power Attack? Combat Brute?

Improved PA is the 5the level ability of the FB, before they get Supreme PA at 10th...

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Close but no Cigar Mathew. Read the errata for Leap Attack.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Frenzied Beserkers are funny

They make stuff fall over. Fast.

[tyckspoon]

Then, Combat Brute gives you a 1.5:1 return on the round after you charge with a 1 hander, or 3:1 with a 2 hander.

Then, Leap Attack gives a 100% increase on your PA return.

Leap Attack doesn't stack with Momentum Swing under most conditions- they have exclusive qualifiers. Leap Attack applies when you charge. Momentum swing applies the round after that, when Leap Attack has ceased working. They only get combined if you're lucky enough to have another target to charge with your Leap Attack. Or a Swift or free action way to move at least ten feet from your target, I guess.

[Matthew]

Close but no Cigar Mathew. Read the errata for Leap Attack.

Don't worry, I've read it (ages ago, though... like 2006 maybe?). As I say, before the errata came out there was another 'official' view, which I think was in the faq or something.

My advice (as with Combat Brute) is 'don't do it the way the errata seems to say' [i.e. read 'normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat' as meaning 1:1, which then becomes 2:1] Of course, if an individual DM is fine with it as written, then I've got no cause for complaint. It should be noted that the errata for Frenzied Berserker also talks in terms of +100%, so an alternative reading is that Leap Attack works the same as Supreme Power Attack. That would probably get you 7:1 for [SPA + LA + CB].

Leap Attack doesn't stack with Momentum Swing under most conditions- they have exclusive qualifiers. Leap Attack applies when you charge. Momentum swing applies the round after that, when Leap Attack has ceased working. They only get combined if you're lucky enough to have another target to charge with your Leap Attack. Or a Swift or free action way to move at least ten feet from your target, I guess.

Very true. Be a Half Orc and choose Headlong Rush instead (or as well)...

[Keld Denar]

Leap Attack doesn't stack with Momentum Swing under most conditions- they have exclusive qualifiers. Leap Attack applies when you charge. Momentum swing applies the round after that, when Leap Attack has ceased working. They only get combined if you're lucky enough to have another target to charge with your Leap Attack. Or a Swift or free action way to move at least ten feet from your target, I guess.

3 words....Anklets of Translocation

Port 10' back as a swift action, charge forward and continue to assault. Good for 2 complete demolitions of the enemy before you need to take a sec to swap em out of a new pair, ususally doable because at this point your opponent has been turned into a fine red mist blowing away in the afternoon breeze.

There's also the oft cited Travel Devotion, although its only good for 1 combat a day unless you invest lots of feats in it or take a level of cleric and lose a point of BAB and permanently sacrifice turn attempts to make it viable 3-4 combats a day.

[TheDarkOne]

3 words....Anklets of Translocation

Port 10' back as a swift action, charge forward and continue to assault. Good for 2 complete demolitions of the enemy before you need to take a sec to swap em out of a new pair, ususally doable because at this point your opponent has been turned into a fine red mist blowing away in the afternoon breeze.

There's also the oft cited Travel Devotion, although its only good for 1 combat a day unless you invest lots of feats in it or take a level of cleric and lose a point of BAB and permanently sacrifice turn attempts to make it viable 3-4 combats a day.

There's also the vanishing property you can add to weapon for a flat rate of 8000gp, 1/day after a successful attack you can teleport 60'.

[Person_Man]

I suggest that you just talk to your DM, and ask him what he thinks is reasonable.

Failing that, just avoid it. FB isn't that great of a PrC.

Pick up Power Attack and Spirited Charge and use a lance two handed, or Leap Attack and Headlong Rush with a reach weapon and/or Battle Jump.

With Shock Trooper and Pounce (which you can get 20 different ways) you're virtually guaranteed to kill any CR appropriate enemy in one round. Use a reach weapon and Stand Still to keep enemies from counter attacking.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Heed Person Man, for his advise is sound.

FB is just a TPK waiting to happen the moment he bungles a Will save. Becase then the 400+ damage/round he is able to dish out will be going after the rest of the party. Personally, I ban it in every game I run.

A proposed Charge build:

Human Fighter2/PsiWar3/Slayer10/Warmind5

Feats:

1st: Track (Human Bonus), Power Attack (Fighter Bonus), Exotic Weapon Proficency: Spiked Chain
2nd: Combat Expertise (Fighter Bonus)
3rd: Improved Trip (PsiWar Bonus), Dodge
4th: Bull Rush (PsiWar Bonus)
6th: Shock Trooper
9th: Karmic Strike
12th: Cleave
15th: Great Cleave
18th: Combat Reflexes

Powers Needed: Expansion, Psionic Lion's Pounce

In brief:

Chains fall, everyone dies. He charges in, hits someone, he gets to hit someone else free, they both go down, giving him two free attacks. This continues until he has no more people around him. Furthermore, everyone is flat on their back before they die, thanks to Improved Trip.

Alternately, dump Cleave and Great Cleave for Leap Attack and Stand Still. Not as many people around you die, but they die harder.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

IIRC, there's a Crusader's Stance that would let you take a 5ft step every time you kill something. That would really let you dish out the pain.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

IIRC, there's a Crusader's Stance that would let you take a 5ft step every time you kill something. That would really let you dish out the pain.

There are no devoted spirit stances which do this, although Thicket of Blades might do very well for this build if you can shake loose enough Crusader levels, so you can negate 5' steps and tumbling from avoiding AoO's.

[Talic]

I generally like using Travel Devotion for my charging Momentum Swing/Leap Attacking.