Thought Experiment: Minimum Caster Level

[Ascension]

Okay, we all know how much spellcasters hate-hate-hate losing their precious caster levels, and especially how they grieve the loss of 9th level spells (you'd think it was an unforgivable sin from the way people go on about it).

At the same time, almost everyone acknowledges that full casters are "overpowered," at least in comparison to their non-full-caster companions.

This leads to my question... What is the minimum caster level at which a spellcaster can make a greater contribution than their non-magical counterpart(s) at... let's say ECL 20, just for the sake of the argument. Can a caster with only 8th level spells still overpower his or her companions? What about 7th? Also, if we find the absolute minimum at which they are "overpowered," could we then knock off one more caster level to actually bring that mythical "balance" the party?

[Aquillion]

It's not so simple. Remember, despite what all these PC vs threads tell you, D&D isn't really about players fighting each other (not even in terms of 'contribution', which is a fairly nebulous concept.) The encounters listed in the books are built under the assumption of a 'typical' party that has 'typical' abilities (read: non-optimized). These include, for 20th-level encounters, 9th-level casting. As you get more optimized, you could do fine with less casting, but beyond a certain point everyone is going to suffer -- when you take True Resurrection off the cleric's list, say, it's not the cleric who becomes weaker.

A level 20 fighter without heavy support from a high-level caster is going to have trouble with ECL 20 encounters. This is not an accident; it is entirely by design. It isn't really a problem, either. The problem is that the level 20 caster can take on those encounters on their own, or with little to no fighter support. That's what you should be worried about.

The fighter 20 will always depend on a wizard's help (or excessive consumable item use) to beat some kinds of CR 20 encounters. If the wizard becomes too weak to decisively win high-level fights, the result will be a TPK, not a sudden unexpected surge in power from the fighter.

[JaxGaret]

It's not so simple.

It is that simple.

If you fix all the classes so that they are equal in power to say, the Rogue (an oft-mentioned balance point in class power comparisons), then an encounter set up to be of equal CR vs. 4 Rogue-power PCs would be of equal CR vs. 4 PCs, period.

A Fighter20 [who is not uber-optimized] is below CR20, and a Wizard20 [who is not uber-unoptimized] is above it.

Take a look at this post for a pretty decent class power comparison by average rating. If you take, say, all the classes from 5-6, or from 8-9, or from 3-4, or whatever you want, and ban all of the other classes, then you will have a fairly balanced campaign.

IMO for Wizards to be balanced to the average at ECL20, they would need to be limited to 7th or perhaps even 6th level spells, though that may be overkill. But maybe not.

[Skjaldbakka]

The homebrew I have been working on put 7th level spells at level 20, with 8th and 9th level spells being in the epic-level range.

Which also has the side effect of getting rid of the (IMO) atrocious epic-level spell system.

[Reinboom]

Selection of spells make a big influence on this still, and the amount of optimizing gone in to it.

Is Polymorph allowed?
Is Practiced Spellcaster allowed?
Is Celerity allowed?
Is X and X considered overpowered spell at an oddly low level allowed? (shivering touch, mayhaps?)

Etc.

Also, where are the levels that are missing caster levels going in to?

It may be an interesting contest/test to try.

[Funkyodor]

I think it is less the Caster Level that is overpowered, and more the spells themselves. Ninth level spells should be good, great even, they just shouldn't be able to wipe out class features (Shapechange is greater than Wildshape, should be on par with; Foresight is greater than improved uncanny dodge, should be on par with; etcetera).

Magic should affect the Caster equally as well as other people, either increase spells to Caster standard (Permenancy) or decrease it to the level everyone else gets (Nondetection).

Casters should be the ultimate jack of all trades, not the master of all trades (Fabrication gets the evil eye ).

The Polymorph line isn't so bad really, as long as the DM has reins and forces the Wizard to a handfull of pre-written note cards (Representing prior knowlege - not on the fly "Yeah, I studied that") with Alter-Self, Polymorph, and Baleful Polymorph statistics.

Change the Celerity spells to be a +3 metamagic feat that requires Quicken Spell to make one spell cast as an immediate action, but character is stunned or dazed afterward.

Get rid of the automatic feather fall stuff from flying spells. If it gets dispelled the Wizard falls, he can cast feather fall if he's got it, but he falls.

Etcetera.

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with the stance that it's really a few spells which are broken rather then the entire classes. I'd probably ban Celerity, Contingency, Wind Wall (possibly Protection from Arrows), and any stat reducing Rays would get a saving throw for half stat damage. That is a good idea for the Polymorph line.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I agree with the stance that it's really a few spells which are broken rather then the entire classes. I'd probably ban Celerity, Contingency, Wind Wall (possibly Protection from Arrows), and any stat reducing Rays would get a saving throw for half stat damage. That is a good idea for the Polymorph line.

I would recommend against adding saves to the already relatively lackluster penalty spells. The only reason they are worth casting is because they don't have saves, because otherwise someone will make all your saving throws.

And seriously? Prot from arrows? The one that is overcome by a +1 Bow? If you really want to kill your flying Wizards with Kobold swarms just attack an arbitrary +1 to their bows.

[Jack_Simth]

And seriously? Prot from arrows? The one that is overcome by a +1 Bow? If you really want to kill your flying Wizards with Kobold swarms just attack an arbitrary +1 to their bows.

Don't bother - Protection From Arrows burns out relatively quickly. Besides - people might wonder where those 50 +1 bows went...

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd forgotten that magical weapons countered Protection from Arrows (sorry about that). The problem with the Ray spells which I mentioned is that they can severely hinder an opponant a lot with a touch spell being all that's needed, which seems to be too powerful to me.

[Funkyodor]

Oh, we added a critical fumble mechanic to touch spells/rays. Roll a 1 and the caster gets hit with it. Fumble mechanic was spread around to be Ranged weapons snap strings and they miss next rounds actions. Melee weapon users fall down on a failed DC ?? Tumble check and miss next rounds actions (Except they do get to stand up as a 5 foot move equivalent action).

[Starbuck_II]

Oh, we added a critical fumble mechanic to touch spells/rays. Roll a 1 and the caster gets hit with it. Fumble mechanic was spread around to be Ranged weapons snap strings and they miss next rounds actions. Melee weapon users fall down on a failed DC ?? Tumble check and miss next rounds actions (Except they do get to stand up as a 5 foot move equivalent action).

I'd hate to be epic: since you have so many attacks eventually, you it happens more often on average.
It hurts the players more than enemy due to players have to live with the drawback longer.