Why is Incantatrix considered so powered?

[neochaos]

Well, I heard many people saying that Incantatrix is very powerful class. Improved metamagic seems cool, but I don't understand why it is considered that powerful. What are some powerful abilities of Incantatrix and how a caster can use them? Examples are greatly appreciated.

[Human Paragon 3]

Free metamagic, I believe. 'Nuff said.

[nargbop]

You get three free metamagic feats over ten levels, and at eighth level, your metamagic is considered one level cheaper. Cheap metamagic is good.

[Karsh]

That's not even the half of it. Cooperative Metamagic is also incredibly good. The ability to modify spells with high-adjustment metamagic for free is the real draw. The most disgusting thing about Incantatrixes is that they are essentially economies of scale. If you get two or three of them together, they become capable of making spells do things they were never intended to do.

[Turcano]

You get three free metamagic feats over ten levels, and at eighth level, your metamagic is considered one level cheaper. Cheap metamagic is good.

To elaborate, it's like getting Arcane Thesis for every spell you have. On these boards, the gold standard attack spell is the empowered split ray enervation, which is essentially energy drain-and-a-half; now you can put it in a 7th-level spell slot. Or you could put Maximize Spell on it for energy drain x 2.5.

Instant Metamagic allows you to add metamagic (like Persistent Spell) to high-level spells, which you otherwise can't do without insanely expensive metamagic rods.

[EvilElitest]

Goes along with my theory that WotC doesn't actually play their own game right, because this was just one of the worst examples
from
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[Idea Man]

Just curious... doesn't anyone think to cast globe if invulnerability when up against an incantrix? Most of the kill-sets I see are fourth or lower base spells.

[Corolinth]

If you get two or three of them together, they become capable of making spells do things they were never intended to do.

The population density of level 7+ arcane spellcasters (let alone those with two levels of incantatrix) is sufficiently low, regardless of your setting, to prevent this from ever becoming a problem. Sure, in a given geographic region you might dig up two or three incantatrices. Now how are you going to get them to work together? I'd bet my money on one of them getting killed due to a personality conflict.

In the rare occasion that you can get a group together that's willing to co-operate with one another, is that really so broken and overpowering? Consider that a group of wizards working together is a standard fantasy requirement for anything awesome.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

The reason Incantatrix is powerful depends on who is using him:

1) Newbiest newb to D&D ever:

Hey, it's just like a Wizard except I get my feats faster, cheaper metamagic, and some other abilities that I'll use every once in a while.

2) Metamagic crazy death:

How does a Split, Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, Quickened Enervation sound? What if I told you that was a fourth level slot?

3) Realizing the full effect of his spellcraft checks:

Okay, level 9, sweet. Okay guys. I'm going to persist Greater Blink on the rogue so he gets Sneak Attack all day, then Chain the Cleric's Deathward so we are all invulnerable to death effects. Now I'm going Persist Haste on everyone. What's next guys?

4) A monstrosity of Epic proportions:

My list of Persisted spells includes Superior Invisibility, Shapechange, some other stuff. I also do everything the other three do. And I spend half my time playing around with our opponents by stealing their Summon Elemental Monolith Spells and Spheres of Destruction out from under their noses. Mostly because they aren't worth actually wasting spell slots.

In the rare occasion that you can get a group together that's willing to co-operate with one another, is that really so broken and overpowering? Consider that a group of wizards working together is a standard fantasy requirement for anything awesome.

1) He's talking about PCs doing it.

2) Is it that broken? Well since 2 plus a DMM Cleric is enough to persist every single Cleric and Wizard buff across the whole party all day. Yeah.

Just curious... doesn't anyone think to cast globe if invulnerability when up against an incantrix? Most of the kill-sets I see are fourth or lower base spells.

The thing is, the insta death against 90% of enemies spells are usually exactly 4th level. But they still have everything every other Wizard has of higher level.

Of course the funniest part is that an Incantatrix can spend 2 standard actions to steal the Globe from you and dismiss it. So you net gained 1 standard action, which only matters if the Incantatrix is alone.

[neochaos]

[QUOTE=Chosen_of_Vecna;4241195]The reason Incantatrix is powerful depends on who is using him:
2) Metamagic crazy death:

How does a Split, Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, Quickened Enervation sound? What if I told you that was a fourth level slot?

How do you do that? what is the final slot of that Enervation?

[Saph]

While the above reasons have something to do with it, the reason you hear about it so much on this board is because TLN spotlighted it in his wizard guide over a year ago. Since then it's passed into mythical status.

- Saph

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

While the above reasons have something to do with it, the reason you hear about it so much on this board is because TLN spotlighted it in his wizard guide over a year ago. Since then it's passed into mythical status.

- Saph

Yes, it's far more likely that everyone on this forum is incapable of thinking for themselves and a gigantic toady to a year old guide then that they can actually see the many various benefits of the Incantatrix PrC.

[JaxGaret]

Just curious... doesn't anyone think to cast globe if invulnerability when up against an incantrix? Most of the kill-sets I see are fourth or lower base spells.

Okay, you cast GoI. Unless you're masking your casting somehow, the Incantatrix knows you have the Globe on. The Incantatrix hits you with a 5th level spell all metamagiced up. You lose.

GoI is generally a bad idea to use a spell slot on, because its spell level is too high and its duration too short for what it does.

It would be much better off as a Psionic power, where you could pump whatever amount of PP into it you wanted to negate X level spells. As a quick example, you pump X^2 PP into it to negate all Xth or lower level spells cast on you for 1 round/level. That would be much better, but spells in 3e don't work that way, unless you made it a series of spells of different levels, but that would be a different animal.

[NecroRebel]

How do you do that? what is the final slot of that Enervation?

With Arcane Thesis (Enervation), you can get a Twinned Split Ray Empowered Maximized Quickened Enervation in a 7th level slot, barring metamagic rods. All of those but Maximize and Quicken are +2 or less adjusters, which Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis make go away. Rod-Quicken one and you can burn 2 5-level slots in a round to give an enemy 32+8D4/2 negative levels in one round, with touch attacks. For extra fun, I hear there's some +1 metamagic feat somewhere called Black Lore of the Moire that makes a spell give a negative level, which would increase that trick (for no higher cost, mind you) to 40+8D4/2.

Hmm... Looking that up, I guess you need Black Lore of the Moil to make a Necromancy spell (Enervation) deal damage for +1 metamagic, then Fell Drain to make it add the negative level for +2 metamagic, which Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis, again, make not count. Hax, basically.

[Rutee]

Yes, it's far more likely that everyone on this forum is incapable of thinking for themselves and a gigantic toady to a year old guide then that they can actually see the many various benefits of the Incantatrix PrC.

Yes, as a matter of fact it /is/ more likely that people simply repeat things word of mouth then actually look things up themselves, or truly grasp the gravity of what they discuss. Are you new to human psychology?

I do believe the Incantatrix is stupid powerful, but your rebuttal was pretty.. strange.

[Reel On, Love]

3) Realizing the full effect of his spellcraft checks:

Okay, level 9, sweet. Okay guys. I'm going to persist Greater Blink on the rogue so he gets Sneak Attack all day, then Chain the Cleric's Deathward so we are all invulnerable to death effects. Now I'm going Persist Haste on everyone. What's next guys?

Morbo?
"METAMAGIC DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
Thank you, Morbo.
Greater Blink is Personal, and can't be persisted on the rogue. Death Ward is touch-range, and can't be chained (you could Reach it first, though, I guess).
Haste is not fixed-rannge or personal and therefore can't be persisted.

Not so say that Metamagic Effect isn't disgusting. Those are just bad examples.

[Emperor Tippy]

While the above reasons have something to do with it, the reason you hear about it so much on this board is because TLN spotlighted it in his wizard guide over a year ago. Since then it's passed into mythical status.

- Saph

Actually it had more to do with me just posting an Incantatrix build that Karsh and I came up with in all the wizard challenge threads. Before that it was mentioned but no one on these boards had shown why it was so powerful.

To the OP:

Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substituted, Piercing Cold, Fell Draining, Invisible, Twinned, Energy Admixed, Cooperative, Quickened, Orb of Fire - 2x (180 + 15d6 Cold Damage + 1 Negative Level, no save, Fort Save or Dazed for 1 round).

Thats quickened, No Save, No SR. Out of a 4th level slot. You can heighten it to 5th level if you want to bypass Globe Of Invulnerability. But with Snatch Spell you can end the Globe of Invulnerability as a standard action with 2 opposed caster level checks and then hit them with the Orb.

Or you just hit them with a Greater Dispel Magic (which you should be doing in most fights anyways) if you see that they have the Globe up.

-----
Now the real fun of Incantatrix comes with Persistent spell and Metamagic Effect. You can get things like 24 hour Ironguard (immunity to all metal weapons), 24 hour Superior Invisibility (only things with True Seeing can find you), 24 hour Greater Blink, etc.

With 30 int you get 13 uses per day. That is 13 buffs that last all day. And you get 13 more that you can do with Cooperative Meta (the cleric casts a buff and you Coop persist it).

[dman11235]

Actually, I believe that the Incantatrix only lowers the total level of the spell, where Arcane Thesis calls out that it works on every MM feat. Also, for both of them, minimum +1 level.

[Emperor Tippy]

Morbo?
"METAMAGIC DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
Thank you, Morbo.
Greater Blink is Personal, and can't be persisted on the rogue.

You can get around that.

Death Ward is touch-range, and can't be chained (you could Reach it first, though, I guess).

Yes. 1 Level of Hirophant for Divine Reach. Or a Rod of Reach Spell.

Haste is not fixed-rannge or personal and therefore can't be persisted.

An Incantatrix can still apply it to themselves or anyone else. They just can't use Cooperative Meta on it.

But you can still use Metamagic Effect to make it persistent. Technically you can persist any spell with a duration with Metamagic Effect.

Not so say that Metamagic Effect isn't disgusting. Those are just bad examples.

Yeah, Ironguard and Superior Invisibility are the real fun.

[Reel On, Love]

An Incantatrix can still apply it to themselves or anyone else. They just can't use Cooperative Meta on it.

But you can still use Metamagic Effect to make it persistent. Technically you can persist any spell with a duration with Metamagic Effect.

I must have missed the part in Metamagic Effect where it explicitly lets you ignore the requirements of metamagic feats you're applying with it.
Because if that part doesn't exist, then you still have to meet Persistent Spell's requirements, just as if you were applying it in any other way.

[monty]

Actually, I believe that the Incantatrix only lowers the total level of the spell, where Arcane Thesis calls out that it works on every MM feat. Also, for both of them, minimum +1 level.

I looked it up, and it says that it applies to the feat, not the spell, so it applies to each one. That still doesn't change the "minimum +1" problem, though. Maybe it's not quite as powerful as people think.

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually, I believe that the Incantatrix only lowers the total level of the spell, where Arcane Thesis calls out that it works on every MM feat. Also, for both of them, minimum +1 level.

Your wrong on both points.

"whenever she uses a metamagic feat, the required increase in spell level is reduced by 1 (minimum +1 spell level"

It works on each feat individually.

Arcane Thesis has no minimum, it just can't reduce the final spell level below its original level (no casting a 9th level spell in an 8th level slot by having Arcane Thesis and Invisible Spell on it).

[dman11235]

That's what I meant by the +1 level thing, actually. And I'll re-read the segment, it's been a while, though I could have sworn it was just the spell it affected...And you're right. It's even worse than I thought. Oh well, more pain for my enemies!

EDIT: Oh, I just read through the Errata for Arcane Thesis, and it omitted the part about it not being able to be lowered below the original level. So yeah, I thought it was a minimum +1 adjustment as well. Even more pain.

[monty]

Arcane Thesis only applies to one spell, though. Go up against something that's immune to that spell and it's useless.

[neochaos]

Now the real fun of Incantatrix comes with Persistent spell and Metamagic Effect. You can get things like 24 hour Ironguard (immunity to all metal weapons), 24 hour Superior Invisibility (only things with True Seeing can find you), 24 hour Greater Blink, etc.

With 30 int you get 13 uses per day. That is 13 buffs that last all day. And you get 13 more that you can do with Cooperative Meta (the cleric casts a buff and you Coop persist it)

what you mean by "13 uses per day"? is there some ways to use metamagic with int modifier, like Cleric using his Cha mod for turn undead for divine metamagic?

[Emperor Tippy]

I looked it up, and it says that it applies to the feat, not the spell, so it applies to each one. That still doesn't change the "minimum +1" problem, though. Maybe it's not quite as powerful as people think.

Arcane Thesis + Improved Meta. Any +2 of less meta is free. Add in easy meta and you can make a +3 meta free. Now add in +0 meta like Invisible Spell and Energy Substitution. Those add a -1 which you can use to cancel out other increases.

An Arcane Thesis, Improved Meta, Invisible, Maximized, Orb of Fire is a 4th level spell.

So is an Arcane Thesis, Improved Meta, Easy Meta: Quicken, Invisible, Quickened Orb of Fire.

[Emperor Tippy]

what you mean by "13 uses per day"? is there some ways to use metamagic with int modifier, like Cleric using his Cha mod for turn undead for divine metamagic?

Metamagic Effect is usable 3+Int Mod times per day.

[dman11235]

But Improved MM does have the +1 limit, so it would have to be at +1 level if you used it.

[monty]

But Improved MM does have the +1 limit, so it would have to be at +1 level if you used it.

That's only if it's already +1 or higher. It then says that it can't become negative if it's +0.

[Jasdoif]

But Improved MM does have the +1 limit, so it would have to be at +1 level if you used it.

I believe that's where Arcane Thesis comes in, it reduces the +1 to 0.