Bards

[Schala]

Okay, so who else here likes the Bard class? Personally, bards are my favorite class but I always get ridiculed (playfully of course) whenever I decide to play one. I know it isn't a popular class but I am sure I'm not the only one who likes and favors them?

[nerulean]

Bard's relatively popular on the boards. True, it may not be the most optimized class in existence, but it has a lot of different ways to play it and is rather entertaining. I love playing high charisma 'face' characters, and my favourite character ever was a bard.

[Skjaldbakka]

I think bard is what the primary spellcasters should look like. A few class features like bardic music and bardic lore, and a 0-6th spellcasting progression pre-epic, with 7-9th level spells being epic level (but still included in the core book).

[Ascension]

Bards, unlike monks, can indeed be quite effective. You just need to optimize the heck out of them in order to make them effective. Due to this, and the suspension of disbelief required to accept musical talent turning you into a magic-user, they are often maligned.

I'm quite fond of bards myself, particularly since you can use Perform: Oratory in order to deliver inspiring monologues to your comrades instead of singing to them, but my current DM would probably laugh me out of the room if I tried to play one, and even my last DM took any opportunity to gently mock them.

[potatocubed]

I love bards. I don't think they make very much sense, especially when you start exploring the further reaches of what constitutes a musical instrument, but they're so much fun.

Especially with Leadership.

[Tempest Fennac]

Skjaldbakka, what sort of class features would you use for other spellcasters? (I still tend to see individual spells as being a problem rather then the full casters themselves if I'm honest). I'm planning on playing aBard in a PbP campaign because I thought they looked like a fun class (the group should be quite big, so the Bard's inability to fill any roll on its own shouldn't be a problem).

[Starbuck_II]

Okay, so who else here likes the Bard class? Personally, bards are my favorite class but I always get ridiculed (playfully of course) whenever I decide to play one. I know it isn't a popular class but I am sure I'm not the only one who likes and favors them?

I love them. But I suggest Prestige classing them around level 7 or 8. I like sublime Chord (from Complete Arcane): a Bard with 9th level spells.
Add in Arcane Strike in Complete warrior for attack boost to make a decent warrior.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Bards are cool! I love the variance in their abilities and the huge range of things they can do!

[Azerian Kelimon]

And of course, anybody who mocks bard NEVER saw one with Snowflake Warance on. Seriously, those gut hit ANYTHING, without wasting a use of bardic music.

Also, obligatory link.

[Keld Denar]

The core bard is kind of meh, because I believe that the designers didn't quite understand the scaleing of bard songs (notably Inspire Courage and Suggestion). Inspire Courage scales too slow to be of too much use, and its value as a moral bonus is much less than if its type had been some other less commonly used type. Suggestion on the other hand, scales TOO fast, in my opinion. The DCs on it by level 10 or so can be staggering, to the point where its almost impossible to save.

Outside core, the devs realized the deficiencies of bardic music, particularly Inspire Courage. They created such features as Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart (feat), Words of Creation (feat), Inpirational Boost (spell), and Badge of Valor (item). All of these items increase the value of Inspire Courage to make it a very viable, valuable, and versitile party resource. A bard can swap back and forth between Dragonfire or standard Insp Courage depending on what the party makeup is. 2hand weapon fighter types benefit more from the +hit/dmg due to Power Attack, whereas 2weapon types like rogues, monks, and their kin benefit from Dragonfire due to high number of attacks. The base numerical boost of each feature is improved by the other feats/spells/items to a range that isn't overpowered, but is definitely a strong and viable choice for party buffing, rather than that little +1 everyone always forgets to add because its so minor.

Bards are strong. They are viable in melee, as a primary control caster, as an archer, or as a buffer, or at just about any other role you chose with the right combination of feats/PrCs/ACFs and vision. While its unfortunate to have to span so many different books to create a bard that fills your vision, at least its an option is available.

Good luck and happy barding!

[potatocubed]

I think the reason core bards feel underpowered is because their whole role is to avoid combat, not win it. They have social skills to help prevent fights breaking out. They have stealth skills to avoid combat. They have illusion magic to escape or avoid combat. Even their whip weapon proficiency is more useful to trip or disarm someone than actually hurt them.

As I see it, a bard's role is to prevent fights, or once they're in a fight to get away clean, make several heavily armed friends (those social skills again) and come back, buffing his new pals from a safe distance. It's just this role doesn't work very well in a lot of games, especially high-combat dungeon-crawling games.

[riddles]

as any kind of melee character, i love having a well played bard in my party. i think i might try one once i've finished my stint at DMing.

inspire courage ftw

[Inhuman Bot]

Especially as cohorts, I love bards. My Rouge currently has a Kobold bard cohort that rides around the battle on a dog. I like the healing in combat, the diplomacy out of combat, and the bard song anywhere.

[Shishnarfne]

Even in Core-Only, the Bard list has a large number of Save or Lose spells to choose from (mostly Enchantments), so even then the Bard can be a force to be feared against an unprepared foe...

However, a second option against foes immune/resistant to Mind-Affecting spells is a very good idea.

I'll also second the comment that Inspire Confidence scales too slowly to be great, and that DC's on Fascinate/Suggestion scale too quickly. I have yet to see a DM allow them to be used in a combat situation for that reason (my interpretation of RAW holds that the guy next to you who just drew a greatsword constitutes an obvious threat, so you shouldn't be able to use Fascinate then, but I've heard people argue that). (Let's try not to derail this thread with that discussion).

Really, if you choose spells (and Magic items and feats) wisely, a bard can be a respectable full caster, even using just Core, but while they won't be equal to a wizard/sorceror trying to do the same job, they will be able to do more things besides casting spells (even without going the Diplomancer road).

Yes, mock the Bard, laugh at him even, but do it because he just dropped a Hideous Laughter on you and you have no choice.

[Talya]

I'll also second the comment that Inspire Confidence scales too slowly to be great

If you're optimizing at all, Inspire Courage goes up very quickly. It's trivial to hit +3 very early, and +7 by 20. If you have a melee-heavy party, and dual-weilders or power-attackers at all in your party, they'll love you.

For a 2h power attacker, +7 to hit and damage translates to +21 damage per hit.

[Totally Guy]

When I was a bard, (lasted 2 sessions...) I managed to break out into song three times in the second session.

First I wrote a poem about my backstory to remind the party who I was.

Then I reminded the party of our noble objectives through song.

Thirdly, I figured that the "dark lord" must have an army. Therefore I'll write them a boastful drinking song and I'll sing it as if I'm afraid. But when I came to the session I bardic knowledged "Does the dark lord have an army?" "Yes", "Do they sing drinking songs in the pubs?" "No, they are clockwork"... Which ruined that one. I had to change the all the lyrics to be much less human and more mechanical.

[Mando Knight]

Is a Bard 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian/Fighter 5 any good for a melee build? I would think so, since the Dragon Disciple gets massive armor and strength bonuses...

Why do gnomes have Bard as their favored class? They have a racial Charisma penalty...

[Azerian Kelimon]

No, that's DWARVES. Gnome have a STR penalty.

And nah, that build sucks, because Dragon disciple sucks. Much better to take the Dragonfire Inspiration combo and be SCARIER than most dragons, instead of BECOMING one.

[Starbuck_II]

Is a Bard 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian/Fighter 5 any good for a melee build? I would think so, since the Dragon Disciple gets massive armor and strength bonuses...

Why do gnomes have Bard as their favored class? They have a racial Charisma penalty...

You'd be better off as a Green Star Adept (never finish that class though, losing con sucks).

[MorkaisChosen]

Sublime Chord.

Metamagic Song.

Persist Spell.

Mass Hold Monster.

On the non-optimised side (that may not be very optimised, but it's amusing...), Bards Are Fun.

In fact, I should probably find a Gestalt game and play a Bard//Favoured Soul of Olidammara (Olidammara is fun too, you see...).

[Ossian]

And of course, anybody who mocks bard NEVER saw one with Snowflake Warance on. Seriously, those gut hit ANYTHING, without wasting a use of bardic music.

Also, obligatory link.

NINJA!

[Azerian Kelimon]

You'd be better off as a Green Star Adept (never finish that class though, losing con sucks).

NO! Look at their progression!

Level 1: Minor Suck.
Level 2: Lesser Suck.
Level 3: Suck.
Level 4: Greater Suck.
Level 5: Improved Suck.
Level 6: Empowered Suck.
Level 7: Maximized Suck.
Level 8: Superior Suck.
Level 9: Perfect Suck.
Level 10: Endless Suck.

Seriously. Unless you're playing a whore, Sucking so much hurts, badly.

[Shishnarfne]

If you're optimizing at all, Inspire Courage goes up very quickly. It's trivial to hit +3 very early, and +7 by 20. If you have a melee-heavy party, and dual-weilders or power-attackers at all in your party, they'll love you.

For a 2h power attacker, +7 to hit and damage translates to +21 damage per hit.

Stacking PrC's? Unfortunately, I don't own enough books to optimize outside of core... Though the Inspire Courage is a nice little bonus (Inspire Heroics are a bit more oomph), and yes, the dual-wielders and Two-handed Power Attackers will appreciate it...
An odd point about the rules versus flavor of that: Usually, the mechanics work best when you sing for one round, then start casting spells/providing flanking bonuses for the rogue, etc. With the benefits lasting 5 rounds after you stop singing, I usually never see the point in singing longer than one round (unless I'm low enough level that I have to really ration abilities).

Though I will concede this to those who insult Bards... playing a level one Bard is tough. Two cantrips per day, one use of Bardic Music, and a +0 BAB... I remember using aid another a lot, and trying to occaisionally drop a daze. At least I got to wear armor when I gave the rogue a flanking bonus.

[Mando Knight]

No, that's DWARVES. Gnome have a STR penalty.

Ah... you're right. The deep gnomes seem to have a hefty CHA penalty and the Bard favored class, though... and LA... though I am looking through the NWN2 manual, so it's not necessarily the most reliable source of information...

[Azerian Kelimon]

Svirfneblin? Oh, gods no. They have Rogue as their Favored Class.

[Starbuck_II]

NO! Look at their progression!

Level 1: Minor Suck.
Level 2: Lesser Suck.
Level 3: Suck.
Level 4: Greater Suck.
Level 5: Improved Suck.
Level 6: Empowered Suck.
Level 7: Maximized Suck.
Level 8: Superior Suck.
Level 9: Perfect Suck.
Level 10: Endless Suck.

Seriously. Unless you're playing a whore, Sucking so much hurts, badly.

Come on, the 1st level doesn't suck: you DR 1/Adam, +1 caster, +1 NA/Str, -1 Dex.
All balance Prc lose at least 1 Spellcasting level.
2nd Level: Okay, that sucks. A natural attack? (What really?) You get +2 saves versus random Fort things. Dr does improve. +1 spellcasting
3rd Level: DR improves, gain Fortification (coud buy it though)
4th level: Dark/Low light vision (meh), DR improves, +1 Str/NA. +1 spellcaster.
5th Level : DR improves, Again more bonuses to Fort saves things,
6th level: DR improves, Fortification 50% (come on, admit that is nice), +1 spellcaster.
After level 6, the class is filled with suck I'll admit.

Really, level 2 to 4, if the best to stop. 6th is iffy, but nice.

And whores are people too!

[Telonius]

The Bard is a full caster, and gets UMD and Diplomacy (two of the most powerful skills in the game) as class skills. Also, a boatload of skill points to spend on things. Not worthless in the slightest.

EDIT: Also, qualifies for Incantatrix fairly easily. Yay cooperative metamagic!

[Azerian Kelimon]

Think of it: It requires caster levels, but is a meleer. It is supposed to melee, but it loses CON and has the average BAB. It has a crappy skill list. It can't heal. It can't do ANY role well. Hence, why it's nicknamed The Suckomancer.

And nay, Whores are not people. They're changeling and Doppelgangers.

Except Sacred Prostitutes. Those are the gods of casters.

[Frosty]

They created such features as Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart (feat), Words of Creation (feat), Inpirational Boost (spell), and Badge of Valor (item).

Badge of Valor is from MiC most likely. Can you list the sources for the other stuff? I've never created a bard before and I'd really like to at least know the basics behind a one that's effective in melee and also boosting other peoples' melee.

[Starbuck_II]

Think of it: It requires caster levels, but is a meleer. It is supposed to melee, but it loses CON and has the average BAB. It has a crappy skill list. It can't heal. It can't do ANY role well. Hence, why it's nicknamed The Suckomancer.

And nay, Whores are not people. They're changeling and Doppelgangers.

Except Sacred Prostitutes. Those are the gods of casters.

Would full bab, letting you keep Con (even as a Construct), and improved HD help the Green Star Adept?