What's that pulling my cart!?

[Gaiwecoor]

After my session last week, I took some time to look over the Knowledge skills and their use in identifying creatures. A couple things, when combined, struck me as odd:

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD...

An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

So, it would seem that you have to be trained in the applicable knowledge skill in order to identify a 1 HD creature (DC 11). What are some 1 HD creatures in the MM? Horse, Owl, Donkey, Dog, Wolf ... the list goes on. Anyhow, since commoners get a paltry 2 skill points/level, and Knowledge (Nature) isn't a class skill, I would think they're not likely to take any ranks in it. If they don't have ranks in the skill, they can't identify the animals. How do these people survive!?

Now, I know that this is just a general rule and we kind of assume that people know the common stuff. According to RAW, however, I don't see how somebody would be able to get by farming, since they don't seem to be able to know that they could hook a mule up to their plow and use it to plant a row of seeds. That's right, they don't know despite their ranks in Profession (Planting), or whatever they took it in.

As is, my two year old knows what a dog is. I feel fairly confident in stating that she does that without ranks in Kowledge (Nature)

I'll assume that nobody here actually adheres to this in their games. How do you use your knowledge checks? Just allow them untrained? Grant synergies from professions to particular knowledges? Anyhow, I was just curious how people handle the wonderful skill of Knowledge.

[Ascension]

I've always thought it was rather stupid to allow perform to be rolled untrained while not letting knowledge be rolled untrained. Thing is, if you're INT is 18, I don't care what you've been doing with your life, you will have picked up some nifty trivia. On the other hand, simply being overwhelmingly charismatic shouldn't give you the magical ability to play a guitar. I plan to houserule all perform skills other than (Sing) and (Oratory) to be trained-only and all knowledge other than (Arcana) to be able to be used untrained.

[Miles Invictus]

You could rule that the character's level reduces the effective HD of the creature for identification purposes. So a 1st-level character could take 10 and automatically identify any creature with one hit die.

Expanding on this, you can allow characters to glean a useful snippet of information if they fail by five or less. For example, a 1st-level commoner with an intelligence of 6 couldn't automatically differentiate between a mule and a donkey, but he could at least say "That's either a mule or a donkey".

[Eikre]

Knowledge is not experience.

No commoner needs to make a knowledge check to identify something that they've actually seen. The average farmer has seen cats, dogs, cows, and horses all his life. If he winds up in the desert and sees a camal, then he makes a Knowledge check. If he winds up in the New World and sees a raccoon, then he makes a knowledge check.

The local duke? The commoners all know his name. The castle servants know his face. None of them know the guy one duchy over.

Why is this difficult? Does anyone here seriously force a Know:Local check to know the names of their friends every morning?

*Roll 1 on Dungeoneering*

"WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU?"

"Your friend! Do we have to do this every bloody morning, Keith? Ask the bearded man in the goddamn robe."

"He's a Kobold Sorcerer, mate. His name is Scritch."

*Rolls Know: Local*

"....WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?"

"...Kinsy the Wizard. Look, try asking the knight."

*Rolls Know: Nobility*

"Oh, hi Brutus. Who are these clowns?"

[Yvian]

Or, you could just give a +10 circumstance bonus for common domestic animals.

+5 for being domestic
+5 for being common.

Thus, a untrained commoner could identify a horse, and have a good chance to identifying a owl. Then we could wander into the breeds and species. Much harder, and may require a few ranks. But if they are peasants they would have taken some type of agriculture skills would give a +2 synergy bonus – so once again an easy roll.

[RyanM]

No commoner needs to make a knowledge check to identify something that they've actually seen. The average farmer has seen cats, dogs, cows, and horses all his life.

Except for the fact that Knowledge skills are, explicitly, a matter of what you know and what you don't. And having ranks indicates knowing something on a given topic, though not necessarily any one given fact. If a commoner fails at identifying a horse, then he's been working with these animals all his/her life without actually knowing what they are.

Yes, there are plenty of common sense solutions and explanations, but the fact is that as written, the game mechanics Do Not Work That Way (goodnight!).

What is that thing that they use to pull carts, anyway? I think I'll call it a clippy-clop.

[Sleet]

I know this is deviating from the RAW, but... Use some common damn sense, and don't roll for stupid stuff. It makes the game go a lot smoother.

Edit: If you think about it, all the skill Joe Commoner is likely to have is Knowledge (nature). Expect calving to begin around the vernal equinox. You plant your first wheat crop after the first full moon after the first calf is born. You don't put the bull in with the cow until after Lammastide, and then you stand the heck back. Harvest your second crop when the top row of seeds start to yellow, but you have to be done by the first frost, which usually happens around the second full moon after the autumnal equinox.

Adjust depending on where Joe Commoner lives, of course.

That's all Knowledge (nature). It probably should be a class skill, maybe the only class skill.

[herrhauptmann]

Except for the fact that Knowledge skills are, explicitly, a matter of what you know and what you don't. And having ranks indicates knowing something on a given topic, though not necessarily any one given fact. If a commoner fails at identifying a horse, then he's been working with these animals all his/her life without actually knowing what they are.

Yes, there are plenty of common sense solutions and explanations, but the fact is that as written, the game mechanics Do Not Work That Way (goodnight!).

What is that thing that they use to pull carts, anyway? I think I'll call it a clippy-clop.

I tried using that logic in an RPGA game. We got confronted by a god skinned gnome, and everyone told my char (human ftr2, int 10), it's Garl GLittergold. In typical RPGA style, our actions were taken from us when the boxed text said we were too afraid to move... I reasoned, if I fail a Knowledge: Religion check, I shouldn't know who the heck Garl Glittergold was, and thus should be able to keep my action to strike the wierd gnome right next to me. I rolled a 2 on my knowledge check, then nat 20'd when I attacked the gnome.
By all rights I shoulda killed the bugger, considering he was a fifth level illusionist.

As it turns out, the DM still said no, "You are paralyzed with fear at recognizing the god in front of you." Bleh

[Jack_Simth]

After my session last week, I took some time to look over the Knowledge skills and their use in identifying creatures. A couple things, when combined, struck me as odd:



So, it would seem that you have to be trained in the applicable knowledge skill in order to identify a 1 HD creature (DC 11). What are some 1 HD creatures in the MM? Horse, Owl, Donkey, Dog, Wolf ... the list goes on. Anyhow, since commoners get a paltry 2 skill points/level, and Knowledge (Nature) isn't a class skill, I would think they're not likely to take any ranks in it. If they don't have ranks in the skill, they can't identify the animals. How do these people survive!?

Now, I know that this is just a general rule and we kind of assume that people know the common stuff. According to RAW, however, I don't see how somebody would be able to get by farming, since they don't seem to be able to know that they could hook a mule up to their plow and use it to plant a row of seeds. That's right, they don't know despite their ranks in Profession (Planting), or whatever they took it in.

As is, my two year old knows what a dog is. I feel fairly confident in stating that she does that without ranks in Kowledge (Nature)

I'll assume that nobody here actually adheres to this in their games. How do you use your knowledge checks? Just allow them untrained? Grant synergies from professions to particular knowledges? Anyhow, I was just curious how people handle the wonderful skill of Knowledge.

Fix:
"in general" the DC is...

DM is well within rights to say that common animals (Horse, Donkey, Mule, Dog, cat, and so on) are DC 5 + HD. Thus, they're below DC 10, and not only can the commoner make the DC, but they can make it by taking 10.

Of course, what's really fun?

If you cast Fox's Cunning on someone, they can make knowelege check DC's that were not previously in their reach. The magic pulls knoweledge from nowhere (unreliably). If you're hit with a bunch of Int damage, attempt to make a knoweledge check, and fail, when you recover your int, you still can't retry .... even if the recovery puts you to the point where you wouldn't fail the check on a roll of 1.

Knoweledge checks are an amusing mechanic... but then, any abstraction will have holes if you examine it too closely.

[Eikre]

Except for the fact that Knowledge skills are, explicitly, a matter of what you know and what you don't.

Bull****. Where are you getting that? The dictionary definition of Knowledge? You don't roll a Survival skillcheck instead of fighting someone to figure out if you live- you know, survive the scuff.

Let's argue rules. Read with me!

Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

That is everything the Player's Handbook has to say on what Knowledge is, besides that it's split into categories. It's a study.

The only reason this skill exists is because we want characters that know about things, but we don't want characters who have done everything and met everyone at level 2.

Here's the deal: Information is drawn from two fields. Experience and Knowledge. Experience is much more fun, but Knowledge is what keeps you from freaking the hell out the first time you pop a cherry.

And so it is with DnD.

When you see a monster, your character is going to want to identify it before swinging swords. It's easy to put interesting things like Red Dragons and Trolls in your background, and nobody wants to keep you from knowing what a Mind Flayer is because your people were enslaved by them for three generations, because that's what backstories are. You're not supposed to use them as all-encompassing power grabs, so any DM worth at least his weight in lead will let you have your share of curious background experiences... along with anything you've actually done at the table.

But DMs also know that Rust Monsters and other puzzles are bull**** if everyone in the world knows about them. They're bull**** anyway, but the hammer has to fall somewhere, and it falls on level three characters that want to know about extremely exclusive civilizations, like Storm giants, from first-hand experience.

But a level 3 character can totally know about giants! Why, I know about atom bombs, the black plague, bears, and Nazis!

That's because I'm a bloody Bard. Or at least I have the Educated feat. Who cares? I've studied all of those things and come into contact through books, lectures, and television, and that time is reflected in my knowledge skills. I also don't have any ranks in Profession: Farmer or Craft: Smithing. I do, curiously, have a few in Spellcraft, but I don't see that as a very wise investment. Oh, well.

Do I outline the proper use clearly? These rules work. They're certainly vague enough to work. That's what we're shooting for with the Death rules, right? That we can fill in the blanks and work around the concrete?

[holywhippet]

If you cast Fox's Cunning on someone, they can make knowelege check DC's that were not previously in their reach. The magic pulls knoweledge from nowhere (unreliably). If you're hit with a bunch of Int damage, attempt to make a knoweledge check, and fail, when you recover your int, you still can't retry .... even if the recovery puts you to the point where you wouldn't fail the check on a roll of 1.

My impression is that knowledge checks aren't purely binary knowledge - ie. knowing something or not knowing it. It's also a matter of putting two and two together or managing to recall something you heard some time back but never had to worry about. Like maybe you haven't ever gone shopping for magical rings of protection, but you recall meeting someone who had a ring looking much the same as the one you've just found and he mentioned something about owning a ring of protection at some point.

[tyckspoon]

My impression is that knowledge checks aren't purely binary knowledge - ie. knowing something or not knowing it. It's also a matter of putting two and two together or managing to recall something you heard some time back but never had to worry about. Like maybe you haven't ever gone shopping for magical rings of protection, but you recall meeting someone who had a ring looking much the same as the one you've just found and he mentioned something about owning a ring of protection at some point.

That makes more sense as an in-character process of a Knowledge check, but the end result is much the same- either you know something about Rings of Protection (check succeeds: Some rings of protection look like this) or you don't (check fail: The appearance of this ring doesn't mean anything to you.)

[Tsotha-lanti]

Except for the fact that Knowledge skills are, explicitly, a matter of what you know and what you don't. And having ranks indicates knowing something on a given topic, though not necessarily any one given fact. If a commoner fails at identifying a horse, then he's been working with these animals all his/her life without actually knowing what they are.

Yes, there are plenty of common sense solutions and explanations, but the fact is that as written, the game mechanics Do Not Work That Way (goodnight!).

What is that thing that they use to pull carts, anyway? I think I'll call it a clippy-clop.

So, wait, you're of the opinion that if the PCs are traveling with Johnny Knows-A-Lot, and Johnny points at various creatures and explains what they are and what they can do, the PCs will not, in fact, remember these creatures or their capabilities at a later date without making the appropriate Knowledge checks?

Yeah, no, the rules don't work that way. There is, in fact, no mechanic for things that do not require it, like recognizing common domesticated animals. Or do you also make PCs roll checks to walk across rooms without tripping on chairs and to remember to breathe?

[Chronos]

Bull****. Where are you getting that? The dictionary definition of Knowledge? You don't roll a Survival skillcheck instead of fighting someone to figure out if you live- you know, survive the scuff.

He might be getting it from the text of the Knowledge skill, where it says

Action

Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.

And yes, of course it doesn't make sense to not know what a horse is. We're aware that the rules are absurd. That's the whole point of this thread: To laugh at the absurdity of the rules.

[Mewtarthio]

Bah, all this arguing still doesn't touch upon the main problem with the Knowledge skills. To paraphrase something I saw earlier (sorry, but I don't remember who said it first):

"Daddy, what's that?"
"That, my child, is the Muscardinus avellanarius, also called the common dormouse. It spends most of its life sleeping, either hibernating in winter or dropping into a deep torpor during times of scarce food. It subsists on a diet of--"
"Daddy, what's that?"
"Hm... I'm fairly certain that's a Pit Bull terrier. I think it's guarding our house."
"What about that thing that looks like the dog, 'cept it's greyer and is eating our sheep?"
"I... I'm not sure... I think... maybe... a wolf, perhaps? Yes, I'm fairly certain it's a wolf. I think that might be some sort of carnivore..."
"What about the thing next to the wolf, that looks just like it, only it seems a little tougher."
"...I have no idea. Damn, if only I'd studied more in school! But that'd be no use; surely, only our villiage elders would be able to divine the identity of such a creature."
"And what about that big lizardy thing with the wings?"
"Heh. Damned if I know. Probably some obscure exotic animal that's wandered out of its territory..."

[sikyon]

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD...

An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

Simply identifying common animals and has had their function explained to them probably adds a (large) circumstance/aid another bonus for having seen it.

HOWEVER

If, a person had never seen a horse before, then they would have to roll a knowledge check to see if they had read about it in a book before, or heard of it.

Bull****. Where are you getting that? The dictionary definition of Knowledge? You don't roll a Survival skillcheck instead of fighting someone to figure out if you live- you know, survive the scuff.

Let's argue rules. Read with me!

Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

That is everything the Player's Handbook has to say on what Knowledge is, besides that it's split into categories. It's a study.

The only reason this skill exists is because we want characters that know about things, but we don't want characters who have done everything and met everyone at level 2.

Here's the deal: Information is drawn from two fields. Experience and Knowledge. Experience is much more fun, but Knowledge is what keeps you from freaking the hell out the first time you pop a cherry.

And so it is with DnD.

When you see a monster, your character is going to want to identify it before swinging swords. It's easy to put interesting things like Red Dragons and Trolls in your background, and nobody wants to keep you from knowing what a Mind Flayer is because your people were enslaved by them for three generations, because that's what backstories are. You're not supposed to use them as all-encompassing power grabs, so any DM worth at least his weight in lead will let you have your share of curious background experiences... along with anything you've actually done at the table.

But DMs also know that Rust Monsters and other puzzles are bull**** if everyone in the world knows about them. They're bull**** anyway, but the hammer has to fall somewhere, and it falls on level three characters that want to know about extremely exclusive civilizations, like Storm giants, from first-hand experience.

But a level 3 character can totally know about giants! Why, I know about atom bombs, the black plague, bears, and Nazis!

That's because I'm a bloody Bard. Or at least I have the Educated feat. Who cares? I've studied all of those things and come into contact through books, lectures, and television, and that time is reflected in my knowledge skills. I also don't have any ranks in Profession: Farmer or Craft: Smithing. I do, curiously, have a few in Spellcraft, but I don't see that as a very wise investment. Oh, well.

Do I outline the proper use clearly? These rules work. They're certainly vague enough to work. That's what we're shooting for with the Death rules, right? That we can fill in the blanks and work around the concrete?
Yesterday 11:08 PM

You seem pretty high and mighty there. I argue that the knowledge rules indicate someone with no backstory. You are also assuming that someone's going to remember something that happened to them, or have learned from it.

My int 3 barbarian may very well not have learned what a rust monster was after my friend shouted it's name out once. He still needs to roll a knowledge check, but probably with a bonus. I studied a whole crudload of crap in high school. Do I remember most of the stuff I learned in geography? Yes, but not all of it. I'd probably have to roll a knowledge check to see if I can remember it, with a circumstance bonus for formal training.

[Khanderas]

Frankly knowleadge should be devided into common and specialised.

Common: Things you pick up while growing up. "Cow says 'mooo'", how to plant a flower, what your king's name is.

Specialised: If you have no formal training in it, you have no idea. Arcane, higher math, planes, spellcraft and so on.

[Demented]

Note that the profession skill doesn't require you to actually do any work.

You roll the skill.
You wait a week.
GP appears in your pockets.

...Come to think of it, you do the same thing with the craft skill, which probably explains why everything has a fixed cost.

[Gaiwecoor]

And yes, of course it doesn't make sense to not know what a horse is. We're aware that the rules are absurd. That's the whole point of this thread: To laugh at the absurdity of the rules.

Heh - well stated. From the beginning, I was just saying that the mechanic doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We all know how things really work. We just ignore that particular rule.

[Blanks]

Sheesh, you all keep forgetting that all the peasants have the PrC "Farmer", with its +20 skill check only applied to animals

If you have to make checks for everything, what is the diplomacy check for remembering to put on pants? (Cue Elan jokes in 3, 2, 1 ...)

[Swooper]

It gets worse. A low level student of Knowledge: Arcana might be able to identify the Green Dragon Wyrmling, but not it's Ancient Green Dragon mother.

This post was sponsored by http://dragcave.ath.cx.

[Gaiwecoor]

It gets worse. A low level student of Knowledge: Arcana might be able to identify the Green Dragon Wyrmling, but not it's Ancient Green Dragon mother.

This post was sponsored by http://dragcave.ath.cx.

Bwahaha! That's just brilliant. Well spotted.

[Tsotha-lanti]

This might be a good time to point out that this isn't even a correct interpretation of the rules.

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

What I find hilarious is that sort of rules quibbling only seems to crop up with D&D. I've never heard anyone claim or suppose that, say, the rules of RuneQuest suggest having a skill of only 50% in your native language means half of what you say comes out as unintelligible gibberish, or that a person with Animal Lore 15% only has a 15% chance of identifying common farmyard animals.

[Roderick_BR]

Yes, a person without ranks in Knowledge(animals), can't tell the special attacks of a cat or a horse. That's why so many people are clawed by cats and kicked by horses. After that happens, they know, by experience, to not mess with some animals
Seriously, if you have no ranks in it, try to enter a vet's place, and read one of their books. You'll be simply lost, unless you already had something explained to you.
Knowledge representes more deep study of something, not trivial information that you pick up by experience. Everyone heard that chickens lay eggs, but how many knows that it's the male seahorse that carries their youngs in gestation?

[Blanks]

how many knows that it's the male seahorse that carries their youngs in gestation?

Only you my friend, only you

[Mewtarthio]

Okay, how about a different bit of weirdness. An Allip has 4 HD, so the base Knowledge (religion) DC to know useful information about it is 14. Let's assume that an army of first-level clerics with 4 ranks in Know (religion) and an Int of 10 are about to take a simple undead knowledge test. The question we're interested in is one about Allips (say, what are the effects of being touched by an Allip?) They will merely take 10 on the check, and 100% of them will successfully answer the question.

Now, change it up a bit. Before the test, we release an army of Allips to attack the school. The students are now rushed/threatened, so they cannot take 10, but will still roll their knowledge checks. When they later have to take the exams, a good 45% of the students will get the answer wrong, because they failed the check earlier and can now never know the answer.

So, in conclusion, real-world experience detracts from all that fancy book learnin'.

Or does it? If we repeat the experiment with Wraiths (5 HD, Knowledge DC 15), we'll discover that 0% of the control group will answer correctly (remember, taking 10 counts as a check, so no retries), while 50% of the "oh sweet Pelor why have you abandoned your servants" group can answer the question. So, it appears that Wraiths aren't covered in normal studies, while Shadows are, but real-world panic situations make you forget all your studies anyway. Unless you have 12 Int...

[exodus_dragon]

interesting concept lol

[Aquillion]

I've always thought it was rather stupid to allow perform to be rolled untrained while not letting knowledge be rolled untrained. Thing is, if you're INT is 18, I don't care what you've been doing with your life, you will have picked up some nifty trivia. On the other hand, simply being overwhelmingly charismatic shouldn't give you the magical ability to play a guitar. I plan to houserule all perform skills other than (Sing) and (Oratory) to be trained-only and all knowledge other than (Arcana) to be able to be used untrained.

But a performance is more than just gross mechanical ability with the instrument. With no ranks in Perform (guitar), my music is going to sound terrible -- but with 18 charisma, if I leap up onto the stage and start strumming tunelessly while striking a comical pose, I'll get a vastly better reception than the guy with 3 charisma, possibly even if he has actual ranks in the skill.

[Ascension]

But a performance is more than just gross mechanical ability with the instrument. With no ranks in Perform (guitar), my music is going to sound terrible -- but with 18 charisma, if I leap up onto the stage and start strumming tunelessly while striking a comical pose, I'll get a vastly better reception than the guy with 3 charisma, possibly even if he has actual ranks in the skill.

It's not the performance, but the presentation? I see what you mean, to some extent. It's definitely like that with magic... not the D&D kind, I mean stage magic. Mechanical ability doesn't matter nearly so much as how you dress it up.

I started a separate thread to complain about this further, by the way, if you'd like to share your interpretation there.

[averagejoe]

Bah, all this arguing still doesn't touch upon the main problem with the Knowledge skills. To paraphrase something I saw earlier (sorry, but I don't remember who said it first):

"Daddy, what's that?"
"That, my child, is the Muscardinus avellanarius, also called the common dormouse. It spends most of its life sleeping, either hibernating in winter or dropping into a deep torpor during times of scarce food. It subsists on a diet of--"
"Daddy, what's that?"
"Hm... I'm fairly certain that's a Pit Bull terrier. I think it's guarding our house."
"What about that thing that looks like the dog, 'cept it's greyer and is eating our sheep?"
"I... I'm not sure... I think... maybe... a wolf, perhaps? Yes, I'm fairly certain it's a wolf. I think that might be some sort of carnivore..."
"What about the thing next to the wolf, that looks just like it, only it seems a little tougher."
"...I have no idea. Damn, if only I'd studied more in school! But that'd be no use; surely, only our villiage elders would be able to divine the identity of such a creature."
"And what about that big lizardy thing with the wings?"
"Heh. Damned if I know. Probably some obscure exotic animal that's wandered out of its territory..."

This makes more sense, though, if you consider magical creatures that aren't necessarily very common. For example, the "big lizardy thing with wings" could very well be a wyvern, but your regular Average Joe might mistake it for a dragon. He might know what a dragon is, but enough is probably legend and hearsay that he doesn't actually know anything useful. Monsters with larger HD are generally considered to be rarer, so on average less would be known about them, although things might still be "known" about them, i.e. trolls spend all their time guarding places like bridges.