4e Multiclassing Article

[Xefas]

The Multiclassing Article is up.

I'm going to use my incredible powers of divination to predict that all the people who like 4th edition will say they like it, and all the people who don't like 4th edition will say that they don't like it, and both parties will be mean and hateful to each other for 4-6 pages.

[The Sandman]

The Multiclassing Article is up.

I'm going to use my incredible powers of divination to predict that all the people who like 4th edition will say they like it, and all the people who don't like 4th edition will say that they don't like it, and both parties will be mean and hateful to each other for 4-6 pages.

Yeah, but even an illiterate half-orc barbarian with Int as his dump stat could probably have made the DC on that Knowledge check.

[Artanis]

The Multiclassing Article is up.

I'm going to use my incredible powers of divination to predict that all the people who like 4th edition will say they like it, and all the people who don't like 4th edition will say that they don't like it, and both parties will be mean and hateful to each other for 4-6 pages.

4-6 pages? You're certainly feeling optimistic today, aren't you?

*runs off to read the article*

[Rockphed]

Looks pretty straight forward, though it lakes the finesse of 3rd edition's multiclass system. And it won't let you be a fighter/rogue/mage/cleric/barbarian/nuclear physicist, but then multi classing like that normally either sucked horribly, or PWN!ed utterly.

[Rutee]

...Uh, Multiclassing seems to suck. The theory was good right up until you give up a feat to /swap/ a power. The mix n' match would have to be direly worth it , I should think. I dunno, maybe that's possible. We don't know how many Feats we get either, though we do know we get a lot of powers.

[Artanis]

Looks pretty straightforward.

I sure as hell hope that we get a LOT of feats though, or otherwise it will, as Rutee said, suck.

[Ascension]

Interesting. So apparently the feat-based multiclassing was done so that they can front-load the base classes with features without having people dip multiple base classes just to get the front-loaded features.

No more Lion Totem Barbarian, in other words.

They also recognize that despite all their various gishy PrCs, multiclassing was a bad idea for casters in 3.5. Good, this shows they have an ounce of common sense.

I don't really get what the frequent mentions of fighter/rouge are about... who does that, really, unless they're just dipping for weapon proficiency and a feat? Rogue/Swordsage, on the other hand, I can understand, and this fighter is getting maneuvers, more or less...

Looks like the feats basically give you one limited class feature, a class skill, and a coupon that says "come back when you reach a higher level if you want to swap out some of your powers." Seems just a wee bit weak for a feat, but then everything seems to be generally numerically weaker in 4E so far.

I'd really have to see some examples of power swaps before I come to any sort of conclusion, and I don't think we've seen enough of the powers to be certain about this. I am vaguely reminded of the mystic swordsage variant, but at least in this situation the wizard's spells are designed to be used in the same way as maneuvers, cutting down on the cheese. I'm sure there'll be a way to break this within a month of 4E's release, but for now I can't tell the true extent of its power.

It will be rather humorous to see a fighter suddenly bust out a magic missile from nowhere, though. "I've been cross-training in wizard, can you tell? I had to trade away my Stabby Death power, but this Missile is sure worth it."

[Xefas]

I sure as hell hope that we get a LOT of feats though, or otherwise it will, as Rutee said, suck.

Well, considering you take the 3 power-swap feats at 4th, 8th, and 10th level, I would hazard a guess that you probably get a feat every Even-Numbered level.

Also, I read (I think over on enworld, but maybe the WotC boards) that the table is kind of messed up. The "...feats, Xth level" portion in the Benefit area should be tacked onto the end of the Prerequisites section for each feat.

I'll see if I can find what exactly they said.

[sonofzeal]

I love 3rd Ed's system; I usually point to it as the prime reason to use 3rd over 2nd (and I know a surprising number who still use 2nd). That said... well, I'm still in the "wait and see" camp. I can see why the choice was made, and the only thing I have a problem with is limiting you to one secondary class. But really, everything always comes down to implimentation, and I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised.

[Eldmor]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say classes gain feats identical to Bonus feats from the 3.x Fighter.

[Xefas]

One of the 4th edition playtesters posted this on ENworld:

Formatting on that table's a little off. That's going to confuse some people.

The phrases "feats, xth level" should be with the prerequisites, not the benefits.

IOW, the prerequisite of "Acolyte Power" should read:

Any class-specific multiclass feats, 8th level.

And the benefit should read:

Swap one utility power with one of multiclass

Just in case the table confused anyone.

[Dragoon]

For those who can't see the site themselves

Spoiler

Show

“We'll get to you,” we'd tell it, “but first we have these shiny new classes to finish first. You used to push classes around and tell them how they had to be designed. Well, now the tables have been turned, you bullying jerk.”

This made multiclassing very sad. Even game mechanics hate being called jerks, but deep down it knew it was true. Back in the old days, it was a great tool for building what amounted to your own class. Magic-user/thieves, fighter/clerics, and even the rare but potentially awe-inspiring fighter/magic-user/thief walked the land, like chimeras wrought by strange rites involving Player's Handbooks, an overactive imagination, and a DNA splicer.

3rd Edition gave us a simpler, elegant, and intuitive solution that worked wonderfully… for characters who didn’t cast spells. The system also forced the core classes to delay abilities after 1st level to avoid cherry picking, where “clever” players simply took one level of as many classes as possible (or layered single levels on to a primary class) to reap the benefits of ungodly saving throws and bizarre but ultimately frightening combinations of class abilities that—like chocolate and pickle relish—were never meant to be combined by men and women of good taste.

The 4th Edition design had three primary goals for multiclassing:

1. Design the classes, make them cool, then force multiclassing to play nice with them.
2. Institute controls to prevent abusive combinations.
3. Institute controls to make every combination as playable as possible.

In 4th Edition, we strived to make each character option useful. Since D&D lacks a competitive or deck building element, it's silly to hide bad choices in the rules. Multiclassing had to obey this rule in order to justify its existence.

In the end, we came up with a system of feats that allow you to borrow abilities and powers from other classes. At 11th level, you can choose to forgo your paragon path in order to further specialize in a second class. This approach lacks the intuitive elegance of the 3E system, but it allows us to tone down or boost a class's multiclass options as needed. If everything works as planned, you have the flexibility to mix classes without making your character into a juggernaut or a cripple. Combos like fighter/wizard now work much better, while traditional choices like fighter/rogue still function just fine. Going forward, we'll introduce new feats for new classes, ensuring that all classes play well together.

So, that's multiclassing. Whether you missed playing a cleric/wizard from older editions or liked the flexibility of building a fighter/rogue in 3R, we've got you covered.

Multiclass feats allow you to dabble in the class features and powers of another class. You might be a fighter who dips his toe into wizardry, or a warlock who wants a smattering of rogue abilities. Each class has a class-specific multiclass feat that gives you access to features from that class.
Class-Specific Feats

There are two restrictions on your choice of a class-specific multiclass feat. First, you can’t take a multiclass feat for your own class. Second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class. You can dabble in a second class but not a third.

A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths. For example, a character who takes Initiate of the Faith counts as a cleric for the purpose of selecting feats that have cleric as a prerequisite. These feats can qualify you for other feats; for example, a warlock who takes Sneak of Shadows can use the rogue’s Sneak Attack class feature, which means that he meets the prerequisite for the Backstabber feat.
Power-Swap Feats

The Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats give you access to a power from the class for which you took a class-specific multiclass feat. That power replaces a power you would normally have from your primary class. When you take one of these power-swap feats, you give up a power of your choice from your primary class and replace it with a power of the same level or lower from the class you have multiclassed in.

Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the power-swap feat for the first time at the new level you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you gave up originally from your primary class, lose the power that you chose from your second class, and make the trade again. You give up a different power from your primary class and replace it with a new power of the same level from your second class.

You can’t use power-swap feats to replace powers you gain from your paragon path or epic destiny. If you use retraining to replace a power-swap feat with another feat, you lose any power gained from the power-swap feat and regain a power of the same level from your primary class.

Multiclass Feat Table
{table=head]Name|Prerequisites|Benefit
Initiate of the Faith|Wis 13|Cleric: Religion skill, healing word 1/day
Student of the Sword|Str 13|Fighter: skill training, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter
Soldier of the Faith|Str 13, Cha 13|Paladin: skill training, divine challenge 1/encounter
Warrior of the Wild |Str 13 or Dex 13|Ranger: skill training, Hunter's Quarry 1/encounter
Sneak of Shadows|Dex 13|Rogue: Thievery skill, Sneak Attack 1/encounter
Pact Initiate|Cha 13|Warlock: skill training, pact at-will 1/encounter
Student of Battle|Str 13|Warlord: skill training, inspiring word 1/day
Arcane Initiate|Int 13|Wizard: Arcana skill, wizard power 1/encounter
Novice Power|Any class-specific multiclass 4th level|Swap one encounter power with one of multiclass feats,
Acolyte Power|Any class-specific multiclass 8th level|Swap one utility power with one of multiclass feats,
Adept Power|Any class-specific multiclass 10th level|Swap one daily power with one of multiclass feats, [/table]

You mean like this Xefas?

Now to go read it.

[tyckspoon]

I don't really get what the frequent mentions of fighter/rouge are about... who does that, really, unless they're just dipping for weapon proficiency and a feat? Rogue/Swordsage, on the other hand, I can understand, and this fighter is getting maneuvers, more or less...

The skilled fighter/combat-trained scout/spy/thief represented by the blend is a pretty common archetype, I think. They're just politely pretending that Fighters didn't suck in 3.5 so you might theoretically do it with more than one or two levels of Fighter.

Looks like the feats basically give you one limited class feature, a class skill, and a coupon that says "come back when you reach a higher level if you want to swap out some of your powers." Seems just a wee bit weak for a feat, but then everything seems to be generally numerically weaker in 4E so far.

I'd really have to see some examples of power swaps before I come to any sort of conclusion, and I don't think we've seen enough of the powers to be certain about this. I am vaguely reminded of the mystic swordsage variant, but at least in this situation the wizard's spells are designed to be used in the same way as maneuvers, cutting down on the cheese. I'm sure there'll be a way to break this within a month of 4E's release, but for now I can't tell the true extent of its power.

They also give you access to other class-specific feats built on those class features, which may be very useful if said feats are any good (or if you've just taken all the feats for your own class that you think are worthwhile.) As balance goes, I doubt it'll be easy to significantly break a single character this time around. My bet is that the first major exploits will be found in coordinating the party. Say, having everybody take the Wizard multiclass training feat and then a power-swap to switch one of their Daily or Encounter powers for the best Controlling power currently available. Now instead of having a chance to completely shut down an enemy (or group) once per day/fight, the party as a whole can do it 4 times day/fight. Possibly without significantly damaging their effectiveness at their own roles because they still have their normal at wills, encounter, and/or daily power to use for it.

[Xefas]

Say, having everybody take the Wizard multiclass training feat and then a power-swap to switch one of their Daily or Encounter powers for the best Controlling power currently available. Now instead of having a chance to completely shut down an enemy (or group) once per day/fight, the party as a whole can do it 4 times day/fight. Possibly without significantly damaging their effectiveness at their own roles because they still have their normal at wills, encounter, and/or daily power to use for it.

This actually sounds pretty cool, though I see the theory breaking down against elite and solo opponents. Elites have a base 65% chance to shrug off any debilitating effect at the end of their turn, and Solos have an 80% chance. Coupled with the fact that without the damage-dealing dailies, they'll last several rounds longer, allowing them more opportunities to recharge their more powerful attacks and royally screw the PCs.

Though such a tactic sounds like it would mow through the mooks quite easily...

[Jothki]

It will be rather humorous to see a fighter suddenly bust out a magic missile from nowhere, though. "I've been cross-training in wizard, can you tell? I had to trade away my Stabby Death power, but this Missile is sure worth it."

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me, it's just a specialized technique that they put in effort to learn. You don't necessarily need to understand the fundamentals of magic to be able to go through the motions for a spell.

[Tallis]

Sounds too limited to me, but I'll have to wait until I see it to know for sure. The swapping powers every level thing seems kind of weird to me too.

[Starsinger]

Not to mention they let you qualify for a different set of paragon paths...

[Ascension]

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me, it's just a specialized technique that they put in effort to learn. You don't necessarily need to understand the fundamentals of magic to be able to go through the motions for a spell.

I never said it was unreasonable, I just think it's potentially funny, especially if you get into more obscure admixtures than the age-old gish. In fact, trading for a per encounter ranged magical ability could very well serve the fighter better than trying to use ranged weaponry, if D&D's typical treatment of ranged combat continues. I'm picturing Roman legions using their 1/encounter magic missile/acid arrow/whatever instead of throwing a pilum before charging.

[Xefas]

Not to mention they let you qualify for a different set of paragon paths...

Maybe it's just because we only know the actual Powers of two of the Paragon Paths, but a Eladrin Rogue/Stormwarden plants a funny image in my mind.

How great an ambush this would make:

Move Action: Move into Position hiding in the nearby bushes/alcove/etc
Free Action: Use Action Point
Free Action: Activate Stormwarden Action Point Power to Teleport 3 Squares into the midst of the enemy
Standard Action: Cold Steel Hurriance to attack everyone around you twice while yelling "SNEAK ATTACK!" for an extra 3d6 on all of the 2-16 hits
Standard Action: Fey Step back into your hiding place

[Starsinger]

Maybe it's just because we only know the actual Powers of two of the Paragon Paths, but a Eladrin Rogue/Stormwarden plants a funny image in my mind.

How great an ambush this would make:

Move Action: Move into Position hiding in the nearby bushes/alcove/etc
Free Action: Use Action Point
Free Action: Activate Stormwarden Action Point Power to Teleport 3 Squares into the midst of the enemy
Standard Action: Cold Steel Hurriance to attack everyone around you twice while yelling "SNEAK ATTACK!" for an extra 3d6 on all of the 2-16 hits
Standard Action: Fey Step back into your hiding place

That actually sounds pretty good...

[Reel On, Love]

I'm picturing Roman legions using their 1/encounter magic missile/acid arrow/whatever instead of throwing a pilum before charging.

That is actually pretty freaking awesome.

[Kurald Galain]

It looks all nice and good and balanced, except for one thing: this isn't multi-classing. This is a wizard taking Arcane Disciple, or a rogue taking Martial Weapon Proficiency.

While you can be a member of class A that dabbles in class B, or a member of class B that dabbles in class A, you're no longer able to be a hybrid that does A and B both equally. Say, a character that gets its powers from two classes, but gets them all a few levels later; the standard "power for versatility" tradeoff that we know isn't optimized, but can be fun to play.

That said, it does look useful, and I predict lots of people taking the warlock and wizard feats because those seem to give the most different options. And I'm sure the charop board can have a field day with analyzing which class is best for which paragon path.

[Kurald Galain]

How great an ambush this would make:

Standard Action: Cold Steel Hurriance to attack everyone around you twice while yelling "SNEAK ATTACK!" for an extra 3d6 on all of the 2-16 hits

While that sounds very cool, I'm afraid that it may not be allowed, since by the rules you can only sneak attack once per round and against one enemy at a time.

"Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy ... your attacks against that enemy deal extra damage."

[Ascension]

While you can be a member of class A that dabbles in class B, or a member of class B that dabbles in class A, you're no longer able to be a hybrid that does A and B both equally.

Or rather you can, but you have to wait ten levels before you can do that, and then ten more levels before you can do that again. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that the paragon paths are better than ten levels in a second base class.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

And you can no longer multi into 3 different classes. Yes they were less strong, but you could be a Fighter 2/Rogue X with one level of Sorcerer spells. Yeah, less powerful, but dang fun.

[Reel On, Love]

It looks all nice and good and balanced, except for one thing: this isn't multi-classing. This is a wizard taking Arcane Disciple, or a rogue taking Martial Weapon Proficiency.

While you can be a member of class A that dabbles in class B, or a member of class B that dabbles in class A, you're no longer able to be a hybrid that does A and B both equally. Say, a character that gets its powers from two classes, but gets them all a few levels later; the standard "power for versatility" tradeoff that we know isn't optimized, but can be fun to play.

That said, it does look useful, and I predict lots of people taking the warlock and wizard feats because those seem to give the most different options. And I'm sure the charop board can have a field day with analyzing which class is best for which paragon path.

You can have a character that has only a few more powers of class A than of class B, I think. That's pretty close. I think sacrificing the ability to be a Fighter 7/Wizard 7 (and suck horribly, and 3.5, or totally rock, if 2nd Edition) is worth functional, easy, balanced multiclassing.

[Ascension]

You can have a character that has only a few more powers of class A than of class B, I think. That's pretty close. I think sacrificing the ability to be a Fighter 7/Wizard 7 (and suck horribly, and 3.5, or totally rock, if 2nd Edition) is worth functional, easy, balanced multiclassing.

Everything comes later, though. Even at 8th you have a whopping three powers of the secondary class, one in each category. To multiclass whole hog you have to wait for 10th. In many 3.5 multiclass builds you could have the bulk of your build in place by 6th.

Don't get me wrong, I have faith that this sort of multiclassing will cut down on a lot of cheese. It's just that it'll also relegate some not-so-cheesy but just-plain-fun character concepts to the wastebin. It's a trade off. In many, many ways 4E appears to be trying to play it safe in terms of power level. This is another one.

[Oslecamo]

Wotc continues with his policy of "you broke it in 3e, so we totally crippled it in 4e. Try to breack it now ******!"

So I just have to say:

MULTICLASSING IS DEAD! LONG LIVE SINGLE CLASS CHARACTERS!

Because, like someone mentioned, this isn't multiclassing at all. This is like 3e feats that mimic other classes abilities, or taking UMD rancks no matter what you are and playing caster.

But wait, it's even worst, because you can only dip ONE class.

Not that it is a bad thing. I always felt like something was wrong when I saw a single character wich had more classes and prcs than years of life.

Wotc continues to play safe in 4e, trying to cut as much combo potential as possible. But heed my words, once it comes around, people will still complain that combination X is 3% more effecient than combination Y, and threads will pop up everywhere whining about it, and after some years 4.5 will come out and the cycle will begin anew.

[Reinboom]

Hmmm...
Color me unimpressed, the only thing I got from this article is the odd craving for pickle relish and chocolate.

[Reel On, Love]

Wotc continues with his policy of "you broke it in 3e, so we totally crippled it in 4e. Try to breack it now ******!"

So I just have to say:

MULTICLASSING IS DEAD! LONG LIVE SINGLE CLASS CHARACTERS!

Because, like someone mentioned, this isn't multiclassing at all. This is like 3e feats that mimic other classes abilities, or taking UMD rancks no matter what you are and playing caster.

It's feats that give you one of the class' class features, and give you their class-exclusive powers. A significant portion of your powers can be from your secondary class, and you can even take its Paragon Path!
That sure seems like multiclassing to me.
It's like a fighter with full Initiator Level and Martial Study for all his bonus feats, not like UMD.


They are playing it safe, but more in the sense that this frees them up to design class abilities however they want. They don't have to worry about everything combined with everything... and as a player, you don't have to wait until level 5 for your paladin's Divine Challenge, etc.
But wait, it's even worst, because you can only dip ONE class.

Not that it is a bad thing. I always felt like something was wrong when I saw a single character wich had more classes and prcs than years of life.

Wotc continues to play safe in 4e, trying to cut as much combo potential as possible. But heed my words, once it comes around, people will still complain that combination X is 3% more effecient than combination Y, and threads will pop up everywhere whining about it, and after some years 4.5 will come out and the cycle will begin anew.[/QUOTE]