Playing Orcs

[Cheesegear]

So, thanks to the Transitions series of books, and the coolness of Orcs in general, my group has got it into their heads that Orcs could possibly be a legit PC race. Whether or not you think they is not the issue.

The group has decided they all want to be an all-Orc adventuring party. Is there any way to optimise this? Given that (full-blood) Orcs recieve -ves in all mental stats and make 'not the best' casters? Full-BAB classes are a given, but four fighter-types is hardly the best group in the world.

It shouldn't matter, but this is a homebrew setting, but, most books are usable/available.

I'm looking to DM for between four and six players. If that helps.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You could have a passable Cleric in there, if you ignore turning. A Bard would be doable, as well. Yeah, they'll be weaker than standard casters, but they are doable.

Also, Underdark Sungoggles. 10 GP, and you are immune to the dazzled condition because of sunlight. Every Orc and Kobold needs them.

[Xefas]

I would go with an Orc Crusader of <insert Orc Deity here>. They can heal reasonably well and don't require especially good mental stats. Plus, you get to beat on stuff while you're healing, which is very Orky.

[Khanderas]

Sure a caster orc would be less optimised then a race without mental penalties, but then again, there is a coolness factor of a caster out of spells that punches the teeth off mooks instead of plinking with a crossbow / wand.

(Out of scorching rays... Grraawww!!!!*bulls strength* *maul*)

[horseboy]

I'd go with Earthdawn. Orcs are a sweet race to play and you don't have people waving torches at you every time you go near a town.

[Ascension]

I'd consider allowing goblins too if anyone wants to play one of the more skulky sorts. Also, no INT penalty with gobbos so you can have a fine wizard if you need one. Alternatively, goblin beguiler. T'would potentially be quite funny.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well, if we're including all monsters, Kobolds make the best Rogues and Arcanists out there.

[Cheesegear]

there is a coolness factor of a caster out of spells that punches the teeth off mooks instead of plinking with a crossbow / wand.

Indeed. That +4 strength is a great boon to wizards/casters.

So far it looks like the 'leader' of the party will be a Divine Soul (which, although requires WIS & CHA, wants to RP that aspect), and the party will pretty much rally around him as a 'chosen of their God'. Another is looking at Druid/Barbarian.

I might allow goblins as well. But the downside there is that the rest of the (Orc) party will treat that character like dirt. And there is probably a 'No' to kobolds. The group wants to play Orcs or some relation to.

One other thing is in this homebrew, caster level is capped at 14 (You can reach Wizard (20) or somesuch for feats/pre-reqs and spells known/per day. But all spells-abilities cap out at 14).

[Maroon]

Well, if they're all going to play orcs, it doesn't really matter if the casters are bad at it because there aren't any more powerful casters to compare them to. A wizard with 16 int isn't going to suck that bad.

[Ascension]

Well, if we're including all monsters, Kobolds make the best Rogues and Arcanists out there.

Well, gobbos seem to fit thematically with orcs. Kobolds not so much. There's the whole "Kurtulmak hates everything non-kobold" thing...

And I can sort of understand rogue, with the racial Search bonus, but arcanist? I know there's a web supplement that boosted kobolds, and of course I've heard of Tucker's infamous kobolds, but straight out of the box the only thing that suggests magic is "Favored Class: Sorcerer."

[Cheesegear]

Well, if they're all going to play orcs, it doesn't really matter if the casters are bad at it because there aren't any more powerful casters to compare them to. A wizard with 16 int isn't going to suck that bad.

Well, the idea was to see/recall if there are any casters that don't rely on mental stats. I was hoping there was some kind of class that I just don't remember where;
"The power comes from within."
and therefore casting ability is based on CON or STR, and as you cast spells, you get (physically) weaker and weaker. Psionics? I can't remember

...That's actually not a bad idea. If there isn't one of those classes about, I'm going to homebrew one.

[Jarl]

Try "Ancient Ritual" or "Lost Ritual" or something like that, from Bastards and Bloodlines. It lets you use any stat as your casting stat.

-The only problem with it is how few DMs allow it. And, as the DM is you...

[Kol Korran]

i'm going to suggest something, and hiopefully no one will flame me for this- why are you that worrid about optimization? the group obviously is thrilled about the roleplaying aspects, so worry less about the numbers. instead, adapt to the new style of play, and make a thrilling and interesting campaign designed for orcs! (instead of the "usual style")

- so what if most of them are warrior types? makes the adventure heavy with tactical battles against creatures without many special abilities. try to let each "orc warrior" choose a different class or concept. (perhaps signifying various ideals of battle). let each of them shine in their own turn.

- check for orc specific feats, equimpment, prestige classes and so on. make some of these pivotal to the campaign, with history, goals, and more.

- as to the casters: the players suggested the "full orc group" idea, they obviously anticipate this obstacle... instead of tryign to make them super optimized, try to find ways to make them work nicely, especially roleplay style. suggest buffing, divination, alterations and so on more than direct battle spells. make them highly respected in orc culture (perhaps a bonus to all interactions with orcs), but evidently less strong in "raw power" against races more inclined to magic and casting. that is part of the experience they players are looking for! as a ide note- the Spirit Shaman class could fit wonderfully with the game, and it is not too shabby at all, spell castign wise.

- to get the "orcish experience", i suggest three main types of "environment/ groups" to deal with: first- other humanoid races, both the PHB races, and the normal monsterous races...
second- inter orc tribal struggles: make a few tribes, make struggles within wach tribe, as well as between them. these might be fairly civil, and might be mroe violent. perhaps part of the campaign can be about creating a new orcish horde? with the PCs as it's leaders?
(side note: if you do design several trbies, perhaps you can give the PCs a certain benefit depending on which tribe they choose their character from, depending on the tribe's history and so on. a bit similar to the FR regional feats).
third- dealing with some sort of overlord/ mosnter race who wishes to use the PC's tribe (or another tribe) ,as his minnions/ lackies (as orcs usually do in more generically themed campaigns). the PCs might work with the supposed BBEG (not their BBEG necesserily, but you get the point), or might betray him/ her. hey, you can even start the first adventure or so with helping defending a location from adventurers, though don't over do it.

to sum up my advice- don't try to make the party fit the general consensus of the "general adventuring party", but instead change your campaign and adventures to fit their desired gaming experience. might be fun for you all.
Kol

[Cheesegear]

Kol, you make some good points. And I like to think that I'm a good DM, and, I think my players do too, since they asked me to create such a campaign centred around Orcs. I can (usually) work around such things.

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Due to the nature of the Homebrew World, the Orcs (and goblins) are basically humanoids (and halflings)-turned-demon a long time in the past, through the workings of demonic 'Gods', and basically made the Orcs slaves.
Long history later, the Orcs are no longer 'tools' of demons, and 'creating' their own pantheon of Gods.
And in the current timeline are just considered 'baser humans'. Although the Orcs themselves know that they have the 'taint' inside them, which may or may not manifest itself as time goes on (A barbarian's Rage is letting the demonic-ness out).
Favoured Class: Warlock or Barbarian
This isn't something I've made up 'just for these guys'. This is a world where I DM most of my campaigns. There's only one kind of elf!

So, whilst optimisation isn't necessarily important, by the way their characters are built, it would limit what I can proverbially throw at them. Such as spellcasters (although the World already has casters 'capped' at 14).

One player is confirmed as a Favoured Soul, he will be the 'leader' of the group.
Another is confirmed as a Warlock. Personally, I think he just wants to be an Orc with wings...

[XenoGeno]

In a campaign I'm playing in right now, I'm playing an Orc Paragon 3/Barbarian 2. While we haven't had much combat yet (it's a PbP), he's done well so far, able to drop people into negatives after one hit (his base strength is 25, 35 with potions he has on him and rage). The downside is he has sixes in all mental stats, so one failed will save and he's out of the fight. High-risk, high-reward, especially in a lower level game.

[Cheesegear]

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Does five days without a post count as dead? Sorry for thread necro if it is.

If anyone's still interested, the party they settled on was
('Leader') Favoured Soul
Warblade
Spirit Shaman
(Goblin) Rogue
Warlock
It's a good RP balance without being too gimped. I like their choices.

The idea is that the Favoured Soul is on a quest, going with him is his faithful friend (and bodyguard), and his advisors on both sides of the coin (SS/Lock...See above in the thread for Orc 'Demonism')...And the goblin is initially 'sneaking' behind them - to be found out later.
The Warblade wants to see if his 'special move' can be to pick up the goblin and throw him at enemies to distract them. I'm sure I can allow that...

[Solo]

Ooooh, iz da warboss gonna bringz da boyz to da WAAAAAGH! ?

[Devils_Advocate]

Did you mean "Favored Soul"?

Well, the idea was to see/recall if there are any casters that don't rely on mental stats. I was hoping there was some kind of class that I just don't remember where;
"The power comes from within."
and therefore casting ability is based on CON or STR, and as you cast spells, you get (physically) weaker and weaker. Psionics? I can't remember

...That's actually not a bad idea. If there isn't one of those classes about, I'm going to homebrew one.

The power of psionicists and sorcerers comes from within, but they're based on mental ability scores. I don't see why one would presume that natural talents wouldn't depend on mental ability, except in the case of purely involuntary things. Depending on Int, Wis, or Cha doesn't make a power less of an internal, congenital ability, because having a high mental stat can itself be a natural, unlearned gift. Even spell-like abilities are Cha-based. I think that 3.0 psionics may have used various ability scores for manifesting, and also been absurdly screwy and unbalanced. I've only read about it second-hand.

That said, incarnum is Con-based. I think that the Totemist class in particular would be appropriate to orcs. It's, like, the one class other than Barbarian that's not automatically literate. So I thought I'd throw that out there, just in case the group winds up needing a replacement character or bringing in a new player or whatever. But it looks like a pretty good group so far.

Incidentally? The problem with giving an orc raised in a typical tribe of orcs a class like wizard or artificer or archivist isn't that their racial Int penalty will make them underpowered. At mid to high levels, at least, it should just bring them closer to actually being balanced. And even then, they can definitely be overpowered if the players want them to be and know what they're doing. The real problem is that classes like that represent the refined, intellectual pursuits of a civilized society with an educational system, carefully crafted tools, and so on. Orcs are going to tend to only be good at things that are primarily learned through practice rather than by listening to instructors. Mostly various ways of killing things.

[monty]

I always thought that racial penalties to mental stats were stupid (with the exception of non-sentient species having less than 3 Int, obviously). Intelligence is more nurture than nature (IMO, at least), so that should depend on how the character was raised, not how they were born. Wisdom is more of a world-knowledge thing, so that again depends on factors after birth. Charisma is force of personality as much as looks (and the -Cha races aren't ugly to their own kind, so that's a matter of perspective anyway), so that doesn't make sense either. I say make homebrew versions that work better, and if you don't, just play with them anyway. Even with a penalty, an orc wizard can still start with a 16 Int with a good roll (or point buy). Hardly optimized, but still reasonable and definitely fun to play.

[Tengu]

I'd go with Earthdawn. Orcs are a sweet race to play and you don't have people waving torches at you every time you go near a town.

Seconded. They are a very interesting race, although that is no exception in Earthdawn which has all the standard fantasy races apart from halflings (and some that exist only in its world on top of that), and makes them all original and refreshing.

[Cheesegear]

Did you mean "Favored Soul"?

I did.

I always thought that racial penalties to mental stats were stupid (with the exception of non-sentient species having less than 3 Int, obviously). Intelligence is more nurture than nature (IMO, at least), so that should depend on how the character was raised, not how they were born. Wisdom is more of a world-knowledge thing, so that again depends on factors after birth. Charisma is force of personality as much as looks (and the -Cha races aren't ugly to their own kind, so that's a matter of perspective anyway), so that doesn't make sense either. I say make homebrew versions that work better, and if you don't, just play with them anyway. Even with a penalty, an orc wizard can still start with a 16 Int with a good roll (or point buy). Hardly optimized, but still reasonable and definitely fun to play.

That's why my Orcs don't recieve penalties to WIS. And my Orcs already don't recieve CHA penalties towards their own race. I also allow rolls for stats, not point-buy. Point-buy tends to lead to cookie-cut (stat-wise anyway) characters, and I don't particularly like that. So, both the casters do have 16 in their respective 'casting' stats.
But, everything beyond this point (in regards to my original post) is moot, as the players have picked their characters.

[RTGoodman]

Well, I see that you've got it covered regarding the stats, but in case you hadn't seen them, Races of Faerun and the WotC website have the Gray Orc subrace that as different racial stats and, of all things, a Wis BONUS. If you didn't already have stuff figured out, I was going to suggest using (or at least modifying) those.

[SoD]

I also, wave the -2 wis penalty, it makes no sense! People say it's because they're savage, it's because they're stupid, because they're whatever...ogres don't get a wisdom penalty for crying out loud, and surely they're more savage/stupid/whatever than orcs!

[Cheesegear]

Waive the first; I waive the penalty because otherwise they have a +4/-6 stat adjustment. It doesn't add up. And I don't believe that strength is a 'better' stat than the others, which seems to be the common reason for the +4/-6 split.

Waive the second; WIS is used to judge will saves, the average Orc being a fighter-class, has a poor will save to begin with. The -2 WIS doesn't help.

Waive the third; WIS is also used to judge (most, if not all [I don't have all the books, I don't know]) divine-based casting, why aren't Orcs just as close to their Gods as other races? That doesn't make sense.
(In a 'standard world' - say, FR - in all the pieces I've read about Orcs, almost everything they do is 'For Gruumsh'.)

Final Waive; Orcs can reason. I don't like the idea that all an Orc can do is 'hit stuff'. If that doesn't work, hit it harder with something bigger.
And in my Homebrew World, that's definately not how they are represented.

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Best representation of Orcs that I've ever seen, is Stan Nicholls' Orcs, great read. And I wont hear anything different. Captain Stryke is the best/coolest Orc I've ever seen.

[mwp1138]

FYI, there are some cheap PDF adventures specifically for Orc parties here:

Emerald Curse
Raid on Bokagna

If you can find a copy of Fury in the Wastelands, I'd also recommend that for really detailed info on orc society, culture, subraces, etc., that you can use in any campaign world.

[Swooper]

Best representation of Orcs that I've ever seen, is Stan Nicholls' Orcs, great read. And I wont hear anything different. Captain Stryke is the best/coolest Orc I've ever seen.

Seconded. That book really changed my view on orcs.

[Person_Man]

Orcs have always been a playable race, as long as your DM allows Headlong Rush. Combine with a reach weapon to avoid AoO, or Karmic Strike for a King of Smack combo.

[Sylvanus]

Orcs are indeed playable. You aren't screwed just because you have a 15 or a 16 in your casting attribute. Heck, even 13 or 14 is good enough. I've played several orc PCs (most of them casters) and they're all pretty powerful.

I have an orc druid who started with 20 Str and 15 Wis at level 1. Other stats were between 7 and 13, so fairly average. While I play him as a fighter, he's still a competent healer. Gotta use the Str bonus to your advantage.

Also have an orc sorcerer (who uses a greatsword!) that I also play in a similar fashion... there are plenty of sorcerer spells out there to make a character a decent fighter.

They're certainly not the most effective combinations (or even setups) but that's the sort of thing that differentiates these PCs from your everyday sorcerer or fighter. Just have to be creative.

+4 Str is a wonderful thing, though... It's hard playing an elf or a human after that. Once you go green you never go back, I guess.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Last year I played in an all orc and half-orc adventuring party. The adventures themselves were pretty nonsensical, and usually revolved around mindless violence, but it was a fun campaign nonetheless. I played a cleric of Gruumsh, and I was quite the beast in melee combat. I used a wand of CLW for out of combat healing. An all orc party can be quite a good time. I say go for it, and wallow in your greenskin glory.