Real Languages in D&D, is this idea a good one, or not worth it

[EvilElitest]

My thoughts precisely and concisely.

Also, my head speaks like a southern belle, and when I lose control, I tend to adopt that accent and speech mannerisms.

And that is how things should be, Souther Accents unite
from
EE

[Collin152]

And that is how things should be, Souther Accents unite
from
EE

Then again, I speak with a british accent when I'm covering something up.

And when I'm overy complacent about something, I sound like I just watched Fiddler on the Roof.

[EvilElitest]

Then again, I speak with a british accent when I'm covering something up.

And when I'm overy complacent about something, I sound like I just watched Fiddler on the Roof.

Changing accents in different situations, i like it
from
EE

[Anteros]

Google Translate. Shouldn't take more than a few seconds if you have the site up.

If you're using google translate or freetranslate.com or any website like that, you may as well be spouting gibberish, because they do not work.

Languages do not translate that nicely and directly into one another. As someone who is relatively fluent in a few languages, I promise you, the gibberish that google translate gives you would make no sense to a native speaker.

[Xyk]

I don't know if someone brought this up already, but it is worth mentioning the different alphabets. I know alot of dnd things write in elven, more in dwarven. I'd put dwarven or common and everything that writes their alphabets in the alphabet we know in english.

I'd put draconic in greek.
Elven in Hindi (sanskrit writing because it looks like that in tolkien)
etc.

[Eldariel]

Draconic should be Sanskrit; it's more obscure and versatile than Latin (which is, of course, rich in and of itself), and sounds very arcane to an untrained ear.

German is an interesting case, since the language has many strong sounds (most importantly, the ubiquitous 'sch'), but whether you emphasize or cover them makes all the difference. It feels sort of wrong for the Elves; Elven should be flowing and soft, like the folk themselves. Speech is art for them, after all. Mayhap Swedish, although I wouldn't object to French either. Both have such qualities, but French is more artificially guided throughout its development, which could convey the idea of carefully created, ancient words.


I'd say Dwarves could indeed speak Norwegian or Danish, or even Icelandic. The roots of the mythology lead to Scandinavia anyways, and all 3 of those languages have a number of strong sounds (so many in fact that many of them state, Swedes sing when speaking - almost the same language, but the pronunciation is completely different). Polish could also work for Dwarves, and German (Bayern German, specifically) seem to all fit them. A language that conveys strength, determination, powerful emotions and extremes serves; my choice would probably be Polish actually.

I feel Orcs should have another of the strong languages; German, for example, would make for decent Orcish (although I suppose all the 's's might be out of place as Orcish should be simple sound-wise). Maybe some of the smaller Asian languages could serve instead. There're ones with really low number of sound variety. Too bad it's been so long since I read linguistics that I don't remember, which specifically were the poorest in that regard.

Halfling speech should be close to Elven if we're giving them their own language and keeping the semi-fey flavour. Spanish has been a good suggestion and Italian and Portuguese too; lacks the eloquence of Elven (French), but is still a flowing, versatile language with interesting structures.

Gnomes could probably speak something that resembles Dwarven; Russian maybe? Something a bit richer, yet still maintaining that stark tone and earthly rhythm. If Dwarven were German, Norwegian would work for Gnomish.


Celestial could probably be ancient Greek (or something really archaic) and for giggles, Abyssal and Infernal could be Hebrew and Arabic. I mean, since those two have always been at war, just like the Abyss and the Nine Hells. And they're both rather complex, ancient languages. They don't sound evil though, but then again, very few languages do.

Elemental languages feel too difficult for me as I have little image of their aspects; the speakers generally tell a great deal of a language, but it's very hard to analyse the mannerisms of elementals. I suppose Terran should again be a strong, Dwarven-style language, Auran should be Elven-style, Ignan should probably be close to Dwarven and maybe the infernal languages, and Aquan could probably again be close to Elven. That's just my vision of it though.


Really, with such a limited scope of languages (I have a conversational command of what, 10 out of the few thousand languages in existence and it's really hard to analyse languages I'm know nothing of), this kind of separation would be extremely difficult. With some more research, more suitable, natural candidates could be uncovered. I really love the idea though and if I ever find a playgroup with this kinds of linguistic versatility, I'm totally implementing it.

[Dr Bwaa]

for what it's worth, these are my thoughts on who speaks what:

Dwarves: I will never be able to imagine them as anything but English with a Scottish accent. However, for the sake of argument, let's say Dwarven itself is German--written in Cyrillic (Dwarves do have their own alphabet, after all).
Orcs: Russian. They use the Dwarven alphabet any time they do write.
Halflings: English, with an English accent
Druidic: Gaelic
Gnomes: Chinese. I think the sound of it suits them perfectly.
Elves: I like the idea of French because I think it suits them, though it doesn't have its own alphabet and I can't think of a language that does that sounds right to me.
Draconic: Arabic. Definitely Arabic.
Celestial: Latin
Infernal: Latin backwards.
Undercommon: Taxilinga

I think that's all I've got for now.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Let's go through my races. None of them speak the actual language, but something close to it.

Dwarves speak gaelic. It's musical, and it doesn't fit the stereotype of dwarves. My dwarves are not stereotypical dwarves at all.
Elves I need to change to speak German. I like the German language; it can be quite interesting to listen to.
Gnomes quite definately speak Dutch. My gnomes are more elf-like than dwarf-like.
Halflings speak Old English. Halfling is what is as good as common in these lands.
Humans speak a language heavily influenced by Halfling, as well as Goblin, as Humans themselves are descended from those two races. However, one group speak with a Russian accent, the others a British accent.
Hobgoblins speak French.
Orcs speak Romanian.

What was originally Half-elf is not actually a Indo-European language at all. It's some deep african language, haven't chosen yet.

I'm making a language tree right now.

[Lupy]

And who does get a Southern accent? I can't think of a race it really fits.

Some badass sharpshooting rebel elves. 'Nuff said.

[Collin152]

Dwarves speak gaelic. It's musical, and it doesn't fit the stereotype of dwarves.

Heigh-hoooooooooooo!

[EvilElitest]

Ineral, backwards latin, is brilliant
from
EE

[Riffington]

Ineral, backwards latin, is brilliant
from
EE

Yes. So
Celestial = Hebrew
Infernal = Backwards Latin
Abyssal = Backwards Rock and Roll
Draconic = Latin


btw Eldariel: 70 years != always.

[SilentNight]

Um... I kind of like Japanese for the Dwarves, if you're playing them as insular or xenophobic. If not the Dwarves, then the Drow, since they /are/ insular, xenophobic, and can deliver treachery with a smile (Referring to feudal Japan, which is what I think of with 'fantasy Japan', not a stereotype of actual japanese people.)

ii kangae.

Southern accent goes to half-orcs.
Hogoblins should be German.

[Eldariel]

Yes. So
Celestial = Hebrew
Infernal = Backwards Latin
Abyssal = Backwards Rock and Roll
Draconic = Latin


btw Eldariel: 70 years != always.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. The Blood War? It's been on for long enough. Religious wars? These particular ones since the birth of Islam.

[Ne0]

I have once played a game in which every language was, in fact, spoken differently.

We used Dutch, our native language for Common, since that would be the most commonly used language.
Elven was French, Dwarvish was English, and Orcish was German. (We just matched the languages we know with the way we expected the races to talk. The English accent for dwarvish is perfect, and if you speak French with a very soft and slow voice, you're about as close to Elven as you can get. The orcish german was just hilarious, because we seriously overdid it. )

In one case, there was even a short Draconic conversation between a wizard and something else. We had run out of modern languages (the DM didn't speak Spanish, unfortuntely), so we fell back on a few lines of Latin. :)

All in all, the adventure (which ended after 3 or 4 sessions) was great fun, because of:
1. The texture it adds. Those kinds of little details are just nice to have in your game.
2. How much more fluently the game runs. You don't have to say: "Then X speaks in Dwarvish, so no one else can understand him:..." Language transitions are done smooth and efficient.
3. Word jokes. Misinterpretations between two groups were sometimes hilarious to listen to.
"'Armoire'?" said the dwarf, "How do you mean, an arms war? Well, I certainly can't imagine one without them!" :P

Problem is, you and your fellow players do need a pretty good or at least basic knowledge of several languages. And your DM must know all of them. Around here, in Belgium, that's not so hard, because we learned all of the above languages at school anyways. (Well, Latin is of course optional...)

[Collin152]

What about Esperanto?
That sounds like a racial language for Warforged, if only they got one.
Manufactured language and all that.

[Riffington]

I'm not sure what you're referring to. The Blood War? It's been on for long enough. Religious wars? These particular ones since the birth of Islam.

The Blood War has gone on since Eternity.
I am going to avoid specific politics, but the idea that the languages you mentioned would have any kind of real opposition is only 70 years old. Started by a Lawful Evil orator who was trying to reduce the hegemony of a "never-sunless" Empire. A combination of his oratory and that Empire's "play each side against the other" strategy served to create a feud that did not previously exist.

[Riffington]

What about Esperanto?
That sounds like a racial language for Warforged, if only they got one.
Manufactured language and all that.

Esperanto should be Common.
However, it isn't :)
I agree that it would be kinda cool as a Warforged language (particularly if it's not a racial language and they have to learn it). Combines all the uselessness of a language you have to study to learn with the semiuselessness of a language that nonspeakers can puzzle out :)

[Eldariel]

The Blood War has gone on since Eternity.
I am going to avoid specific politics, but the idea that the languages you mentioned would have any kind of real opposition is only 70 years old. Started by a Lawful Evil orator who was trying to reduce the hegemony of a "never-sunless" Empire. A combination of his oratory and that Empire's "play each side against the other" strategy served to create a feud that did not previously exist.

The conflict in the holy land way predates those events.

[EvilElitest]

The conflict in the holy land way predates those events.

Isreal was around before creation? Or am i making a mistake in reference?
from
EE

[Riffington]

While that piece of land is no stranger to war, its current inhabitants were not enemies until 70 years ago.

[Shraik]

Well, I think the Halflings would not speak spanish, but probably Irish. I've always viewed the Halflings alot like the Irish.
The Dwarves, Scottish.
The orcs, something guttural.
The Elves something that flows. Anything Romantic or possibly Greek.
The Gnomes

[Riffington]

Well, I think the Halflings would not speak spanish, but probably Irish. I've always viewed the Halflings alot like the Irish

Do you give them Halfling as a free language, or just have them speak Common (with their grandfathers speaking Halfling when they want to mutter darkly about the humans?)

[The Sandman]

I would think that Celestial would be either Hebrew or Sanskrit. And work Aramaic in there somewhere too.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Actually, I've changed my half-elves so they speak Sanskrit. It's different enough to be different, while wierdly similar...

[Collin152]

What about Goblin?
What does Goblin even sound like?

[Dervag]

What about Esperanto?
That sounds like a racial language for Warforged, if only they got one.
Manufactured language and all that.

Esperanto has drawbacks. This guy has a bit of an axe to grind, it seems, but I strongly suspect most of his complaints are valid and based on real problems with the grammar of Esperanto.

A big part of the problem was that the guy who invented it was very heavily influenced by Latin and Greek grammar (popular in 19th century Europe but very nonuniversal), and that Esperanto's pronunciation conventions were heavily influenced by the Slavic languages he grew up with. He raises a number of other issues. Since my familiarity with Esperanto is spectacularly limited, I will not digress; he can do it for me since he's the linguist.

One point is that Esperanto doesn't eliminate the possibility of ambiguity in the grammar of sentences and the meaning of words- for instance, the same word is used for 'daughter' and 'dirty linen!'

Lojban is arguably a better candidate. It's specifically intended to handle very precise statements of logic while retaining some flexibility as desired. It's also designed to be culture-neutral, rather than gathering almost all its vocabulary and grammar rules from a single large peninsual while ignoring other major world languages. That would make it quite a bit more suitable as a generic robot language.

Esperanto should be Common.
However, it isn't :)

When you think about it, Common should be a common trade language with a grammar and vocabulary hammered together out of bits and pieces of several other languages- the sort of thing that the wandering merchants speak.

English fits the bill fairly well. Constructed languages don't, because constructed languages will typically show artifacts of design. At some point, someone had to sit down and say "Let's design a language that can never have any grammatical ambiguity!" Without that, there will almost always be grammatical ambiguity. And so on. Therefore, if Common emerged more or less naturally, without some elite cadre deciding the whole world was going to speak a specially created language, it would be a lot like English in its origins.

Also like English, it would probably have a very large possible vocabulary of which most people use only a small subset- in different regions people stick different words into the trade dialect. Also like English, it should be extremely easy to learn to speak badly, because for every Common-speaker out there who's fully fluent there should be one or more who can make themselves understood to passing travelers only by speaking in pidgin.

While that piece of land is no stranger to war, its current inhabitants were not enemies until 70 years ago.

Largely because they hadn't gotten to know each other...

[horseboy]

If you're going to have Orcs speak Greek, have them speak "Frat Greek," i.e. they actually speak English and have no idea how to speak Greek, but they string random Greek letters that look like random English letters together in slightly amusing patterns.

I personally think personifying the Orcs as an entire race of drunken frat boys fits pretty well.

Fear the warboss Tappa Kegga Bru!
Of course, I can totally see orcs speaking German, it shouts so well.

[Riffington]

Largely because they hadn't gotten to know each other...

Well, about half of each side hadn't arrived yet. But the other half (on each side) had, and got along just fine for centuries.

However, this thread'll go better places if we talk more about Esperanto/Standard Warforged Common, and less about history... I can PM people you separately.

[Eldariel]

Esperanto has drawbacks. This guy has a bit of an axe to grind, it seems, but I strongly suspect most of his complaints are valid and based on real problems with the grammar of Esperanto.

A big part of the problem was that the guy who invented it was very heavily influenced by Latin and Greek grammar (popular in 19th century Europe but very nonuniversal), and that Esperanto's pronunciation conventions were heavily influenced by the Slavic languages he grew up with. He raises a number of other issues. Since my familiarity with Esperanto is spectacularly limited, I will not digress; he can do it for me since he's the linguist.

One point is that Esperanto doesn't eliminate the possibility of ambiguity in the grammar of sentences and the meaning of words- for instance, the same word is used for 'daughter' and 'dirty linen!'

Lojban is arguably a better candidate. It's specifically intended to handle very precise statements of logic while retaining some flexibility as desired. It's also designed to be culture-neutral, rather than gathering almost all its vocabulary and grammar rules from a single large peninsual while ignoring other major world languages. That would make it quite a bit more suitable as a generic robot language.

When you think about it, Common should be a common trade language with a grammar and vocabulary hammered together out of bits and pieces of several other languages- the sort of thing that the wandering merchants speak.

English fits the bill fairly well. Constructed languages don't, because constructed languages will typically show artifacts of design. At some point, someone had to sit down and say "Let's design a language that can never have any grammatical ambiguity!" Without that, there will almost always be grammatical ambiguity. And so on. Therefore, if Common emerged more or less naturally, without some elite cadre deciding the whole world was going to speak a specially created language, it would be a lot like English in its origins.

Also like English, it would probably have a very large possible vocabulary of which most people use only a small subset- in different regions people stick different words into the trade dialect. Also like English, it should be extremely easy to learn to speak badly, because for every Common-speaker out there who's fully fluent there should be one or more who can make themselves understood to passing travelers only by speaking in pidgin.

Largely because they hadn't gotten to know each other...

Another way to handle a common language would be to agree on some language of some small country, or some dead language, that nobody/very few people speak anymore. Such a language would be very much neutral (especially if it's of a very small family) and still have all the vocabulary and forms to express basically anything that needs expressing.

Finnish would make for a good common, for example, since the language family is very small and Finnish only has some 5 million speakers. Latvian and Lithuanian would work too, seeing that they basically form their own language family, thus making it exceedingly neutral as far as all others are concerned.