Instinctive Optimizers

[Kyeudo]

I've come to the conclusion that I am a reflexive optimizer. A friend of mine, who usually plays heal bot clerics, asked me to make him a pirate character. In less than an hour I had him a two weapon fighting rogue/lion totem barbarian/scarlet corsair with near full BAB, pounce, sneak attack, penetrating strike, and other useful class features. From what he's told me of his games, he's the third toughest tank in a group of 10 and their best damage dealer (He apparently put down a BBEG in a single charge attack). This is apparently annoying his GM to no end, because their GM didn't figure on dealing with a character with that much sneak attack.

My own games are similar. All my wizards prep save or suck spells, even my specialized evokers, and PrC out of Wizard by 6th level. All my skill monkeys can't fail at the skills the choose to specialize in. My melee types usually end up being at least a partial gish and rarely have more than 2 levels of fighter. It doesn't matter which side of the table I'm on either. A minor NPC of mine, just a simple scout, was well on his way along the Swift Hunter build. My characters generally outclass everyone else at the table without even trying.

Anyone else notice this about themselves? It's not really a problem for me, because I can intentionally under-optimize or simply take a lower roll in combat, but it tends to bug my friends a little.

[loopy]

Firstly, could you PM me the sheet you sent him, I'm looking for a new character for a campaign that is about to start... ;)

Secondly... Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm still a fairly new D&D player, and my DM found that, after explaining the gist of the rules to me, I'd managed to create a diplomancing UMD-wand abusing rogue as my first character.

He doesn't mind that my characters manage to generally dominate the parties that I am involved in, as my every action is played to character, and I know when to step back and let others take the spotlight.

The other players on the other hand, enjoy having a skill monkey/face around who can single-handedly down a black dragon when they get in over their heads.

I think everyone wins.

[Behold_the_Void]

Some people just have a good head for those kinds of mechanics, they're good at going through the books and spotting the interesting and potentially powerful combos. I'm not bad myself, but in some cases it's really more learned. Optimization I tend to pick up on my own tends to be based on me going through books when building a character, but since I DM a lot I don't do that too often.

[KIDS]

I think it depends more on instinct and desire to be good at it rather than the particular game or study of rules. Generally speaking, I dub it all at common sense.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm the same way. If I had to actually try to make the wizard characters I do, I wouldn't do it.

[Tengu]

I'm good with numbers and logic and like solving riddles that include them, and on top of that I like learning new systems of mechanics - optimizing characters come naturally to me. Maybe not extreme powergaming and creating broken combos, but effective ones? Without trouble. Typical example would be Kadree from the PBP game that Kyeudo takes part in too - my first Exalted character, and I can't help but think she's a bit too much of a combat monster...

[Kol Korran]

my brain seems to be wired in the opposite direction- i care less for optmizing (before i get flamed: i see nothing wrong with that), but far mroe towards the rolepalying aspects. i keep creagin backgrounds, personalities, behvaiours and more to preety much everything- D&D charachters, mosters, people i meet, locations i travel to, computer animations (even in strategic games with units- nearly all untis suddenly get history thrust upon them, whether i realy intend it or not) and so on...

i guess it's one of the main reasons i became a DM. hey- at least it helps with something...
Kol

[Reel On, Love]

I've been doing it long enough it's instinctive and easy.

[Sanzh]

Yeah, I also end up instinctively optimizing. I blame my DM, considering I end up fighting CR 12 (as a guesstimate) when I'm level 6.

[Drascin]

I'm not excessively good at it or anything, but I do certainly tend to gravitate towards the "get a cool concept in my head, then squeeze every single possible point out of the idea" mindset naturally.

Of course, this is mostly academic, as I tend to be the DM rather than playing, but those times I play, I am generally either severely handicapping myself for the benefit of the DM or knowing full well I can destroy the rest of the party with ease (sometimes both - my liking for roleplaying divine casters tends to cause that).

[SamTheCleric]

I sit around all day coming up with various combos of abilities that I'd like to try. My friends say I have a sickness, though they always look forward to my "next character".

On the flip side, I love writing back stories and coming up with personalities. It all comes down to which I want to make first... the stat block or the backstory. Its usually easier to fit a story to a stat block than it is to fit a stat block to a story.

[shadow_archmagi]

I've come to the conclusion that I am a reflexive optimizer.

I'm the same way. I usually play Gestalt as well, which only makes matters worse. (2 players, 4 roles, balances out. Or should.)

Asking for the forum's help also tends to make matters worse. My first character I ever made was a wizard who completely fit in with the party (1st level, not optimized.)

2nd was a rogue/swordsage who dominated with much sneak attack damage and AC.
3rd was a sorc-artificer who kept a magic immune golem tied up for 20 rounds, then obliterated two ghost-things in one blast.
4th was a Thri-Kreen Psionic Warrior/Swashbuckler who was in the habit of killing CR-appropriate encounters in a single full attack.
5th is a ray-based blaster wizard who should be able to do the same, from a distance.

[Curmudgeon]

I do that, too, but it's a second order effect. I first pick the type of character I'd like to play. Maybe that's a caster who has a spell for every occasion, and that means playing a Mystic Theurge. MT is a weak starting point. But then I make it the most versatile MT-based character I possibly can.

Overall, the result is fairly pleasant for everyone.

[Tequila Sunrise]

I think I would be an instinctive optimizer if I didn't also have the "simplicity instinct." For example when I sit down to make a tank character, I have a tendency to assume that a straight classed fighter or barbarian will serve that purpose best. Because in my mind, a single classed character should generally be better than a multiclassed character. As a result when I find that a fighter 2/barbarian 4/frenzied berskerker 10 would make a better tank character, my immediate response is "making a character wasn't meant to be this complicated or rewarding, the designers obviously screwed up, so I'll find a way to fix it..." rather than "sweat I just got 20 class features for 16 class levels!"

TS

[shadow_archmagi]

I think I would be an instinctive optimizer if I didn't also have the "simplicity instinct." For example when I sit down to make a tank character, I have a tendency to assume that a straight classed fighter or barbarian will serve that purpose best. Because in my mind, a single classed character should generally be better than a multiclassed character. As a result when I find that a fighter 2/barbarian 4/frenzied berskerker 10 would make a better tank character, my immediate response is "making a character wasn't meant to be this complicated or rewarding, the designers obviously screwed up, so I'll find a way to fix it..." rather than "sweat I just got 20 class features for 16 class levels!"

TS

I tend to look at it as building a machine with which to carry out my desires. If I want transportation, sure, I could use nothing but car parts, or I could add in a few layers of tank for armor, a jet turbine for speed, and a few bits of boat to make it float.

Thus I've made a better car than a car. albeit one that costs a tad more money.

[DementedFellow]

I am the opposite, I make characters because of the flavor text and take little heed of the benefits of the class. I always end up doing it wrong. It's kinda funny.

[expirement10K14]

I have the problem of reading these forums. Because I browse here my characters have become increasingly powerful. My DM doesn't like this, so now everyone in our gladiator campaign is ToB besides me.

[shadow_archmagi]

I have the problem of reading these forums. Because I browse here my characters have become increasingly powerful. My DM doesn't like this, so now everyone in our gladiator campaign is ToB besides me.

I know what you mean. I'd be NOTHING if they hadn't posted me this link http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889 and allowed me to add every stat to damage.

[SurlySeraph]

I actually usually make a conscious effort not to over-optimize. It's just that sometimes I can't help it, when I notice a particularly awesome combination.

Also, whenever I have a really weird idea I tend to optimize it insanely. There was a humor campaign where my initial character concept was "evil land squid." But then I decided I wanted the squid to be weirder and more effective. I ended up with a soul-eating half-dragon flying land squid that had about 42 attacks per round, each of which drained a level.

[horseboy]

For me it's usually a matter of how into a character I am. The more I dwell on a character the more over the top he gets.

[shadow_archmagi]

For me it's usually a matter of how into a character I am. The more I dwell on a character the more over the top he gets.

Weekly sessions mean optimizing six days a week and finding inspiration for more optimizing on your off day.

[sonofzeal]

I've started deliberately underoptimizing myself. For example, I recently picked up ToB, loved it, and wanted to use it in a campaign... but the one I was joining was populated by newbs and people who couldn't optimize to save their life, so I deliberately avoided all the obvious Crusader combos and instead tried to build a "Crusader's Crusader" who follows the concept to the letter, to the extent of sticking with Devoted Spirit weapons even when a Halberd + Thicket of Blades is such a delicious option, and taking all the Devoted Spirit feats even though I never used any of them. Sad thing was, the guy was still unbelievably dominant in combat and terrified the other PCs in-character.

My current character is a VoNV Healer, and is already shaping up to be overpowered.

[Draz74]

I'm the same way. If I had to actually try to make the wizard characters I do, I wouldn't do it.

Well yeah, I've seen you claim that, fifteen minutes after starting to read the rulebooks for the first time, you could tell that save-or-suck is a more effective spellcaster strategy than damage. I'd say that makes you an instinctive optimizer to the extreme.

Myself, I certainly wasn't an instinctive optimizer. Now I probably have become one from reading enough here. I cringe at the mention of really bad options (Monk with Monkey Grip!) and I'm always analyzing my group's builds to suggest more optimal directions for them to go.

I also deliberately un-optimize my characters now, though. At least a little. I still couldn't bear to take Weapon Focus/Specialization on my recent Fighter/Rogue character, which my group thought was very strange. But my new Wizard character started with a Rogue level dip. That was partly because I needed to do some skill-monkey stuff to fill out my party's roles ... and partly because I'm just addicted to skill points. But it was partly to restrain myself so that, as I teach my group by example that save-or-suck is more powerful than Fireball, I won't teach them too effectively.

[Neftren]

I generally tend to have a huge problem with instinctive optimization. I naturally try to make a realistic fluff, then behind it is ridiculously broken combinations (which I seem to have a good head for). I have to deliberately weaken myself to get to a power level more realistic to the group's current level.

I usually do it by choosing less than efficient methods or worse wealth distributions. Such as buying a Ring of Sustenance instead of Everfull Mug and Everlasting Rations. So I really am shelling out another 1995gp to hinder myself.

[namo]

To be an optimizer you have to know the rules well. I guess you can call 'instinct' the internalization of those rules, of their interactions (which take some time to learn) *and* of some Internet resources.

I know there are people who when given a completely new set of rules (not necessarily a new splatbook) can quickly point out the combination of 3 or 4 features that will make for an extremely powerful combo... They're just few and far between in my experience (I'm not one of them - though I am a decent D&D optimizer).

[Xefas]

A minor NPC of mine, just a simple scout, was well on his way along the Swift Hunter build. My characters generally outclass everyone else at the table without even trying.

This has happened to me oh so many times before.

Just recently, my players decided to attack an NPC I admittedly hadn't expected them to, though their actions were justified, I suppose. He was a Chaotic Good Hellbred who I had previously described as wearing thick plate armor and wielding a big hammer.

Not having stats for him on hand, I chose to use a PC build from my massive library of "Builds of every level that I would totally use if my players weren't such lazy bastards that they would DM for once".

The players' party consisted of 5 with all Full-Spellcasters or Tome of Battle characters, so I chose a Crusader. He was at Wealth-by-level, generated with the same point buy as the PCs and one level below the party average. The players' party was at full resources for the day.

First Round: The Crusader shrugs off 2 save-or-sucks, dodges all but one attack, and downs one of the PCs

Second Round: The Crusader shrugs off another save-or-suck, takes some spell damage, dodges all other attacks, and downs another PC

Seventh Round: The Crusader stands triumphant with a little more than half his HP left. My Facepalming has turned into Headdesking. The plot is forced to go in new and unplanned directions as I hurriedly write up motivations as to why the NPC wouldn't just kill them.

[Dode]

I suppose "Instinctive Optimizer" sounds better then "Unimaginatively crib from charop board builds."

[Lyinginbedmon]

Whilst I have been a DM for the past decade, I have something very much akin. Because the CR system is so out of whack and because my players have gradually gotten better at optimising, I've had to keep putting BBEGs together with the express design purpose of shooting them all down, because I know between me and them it'll be close to a stalemate.

That said, when I manage to get the chance to actually run a character for myself, I tend to do quite a bit of optimising. I don't think it's really worth writing a rich and interesting backstory (As I always do) if they die in the first round to a Kobold.

[Durendal]

I'm rellatively new to D&D, but ever since my first character (a human knight) died, I have found myself optimizing my characters more and more. I like number and logic problems, and character optimization is in some ways both. These boards and the wizards charop boards have taught me many things and only made it worse. I've come to terms with the fact that I'm an optimizer, and thats why my avatar is xXKillStealr69Xx.

I also tend to agree with a previously assertion that its easier to build the fluff around the crunch then it is to build the crunch around the fluff.

[NephandiMan]

Hey guys, I play wizards up to level twenty and specialize in Evocation! All those direct-damage spells are AWESOME! BOOOOOM, J00 G0T PWN4G3D!

*shakes head* Sorry, that's what happens when I get polymorphed into a troll, subtype obvious.