Half-fiend

[Demons_eye]

Ok I am looking at them in the Savge Species but as I look at it there is no good point to them la +4 and you get nothing?

So... I know this is not right please inform me on what you do get. (or if SS is out dated?)

[Deth Muncher]

Ok I am looking at them in the Savge Species but as I look at it there is no good point to them la +4 and you get nothing?

So... I know this is not right please inform me on what you do get. (or if SS is out dated?)

I don't know much here, but I do know a friend of mine made a Half-Fiend Shapeshifter Cleric who had something close to Strength 30. At Character Level 9. Sounds decent to me.

[Cuddly]

I don't know much here, but I do know a friend of mine made a Half-Fiend Shapeshifter Cleric who had something close to Strength 30. At Character Level 9. Sounds decent to me.

But the problem is you lose 4HD, which means 4d8 HP + con, 4 levels of saves and BAB advancement, and worse, loss of class features. And with the loss of 4 HD, its SR is pretty meaningless.

I'd say make it a LA 3 template, scrap the SR, and allow level buy back.

[Demons_eye]

Ok wait whats all that mean level buy back and what not, also what dose Half-fiend get?

[Wizzardman]

http://www.systemreferencedocuments....tml#half-fiend

I dunno. The loss of hp isn't great, but at levels > 6, most of the other disadvantages are easily made up for with spell like abilities, bonuses to stats, and flight capabilities. And the DR and resistances, despite not being particularly high, are still pretty darn useful in a lot of situations. In all honesty, I always thought the half-fiend template is pretty good for a martially-oriented character.

[Cuddly]

Ok wait whats all that mean level buy back and what not, also what dose Half-fiend get?

Level buy off:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ra...djustments.htm
From Unearthed Arcana, originally

HD = hit dice
hp = hit points
bab = base attack bonus
SR = spell resistance
LA = level adjustment

http://www.systemreferencedocuments....tml#half-fiend

I dunno. The loss of hp isn't great, but at levels > 6, most of the other disadvantages are easily made up for with spell like abilities, bonuses to stats, and flight capabilities. And the DR and resistances, despite not being particularly high, are still pretty darn useful in a lot of situations. In all honesty, I always thought the half-fiend template is pretty good for a martially-oriented character.

It's more than a loss of HP. The loss of 4 levels means you lose 4 BAB. For a martial build, that's going to translate to a loss of 4 damage (power attack), 8 damage (power attack with both hands) or 16 damage (power + leap attack with both hands). I've played templated characters alongside non-templated characters. You really have to work hard to make up, believe me. The difference only gets bigger as you gain levels, since the spell casters are getting access to better and better gear, and the +4 strength you got from the template is meaning less and less in terms of damage and to hit. In an ECL 5 game, that +4 = +2 to hit, which is going to be an 40% to hit of what the barbarian's BAB is. AT ECL 20, that +2 to hit is going to be 10% of BAB; and far less when you add up +5 weapons, buffs, and belts of giant strength.

Your saves will be worse off, especially will, since you don't get any wisdom buffs. That's never fun, failing will saves.

Your SLAs (spell like abilities) will be underpowered and old hat- when you hit ECL 20, the cleric will have been throwing Blasphemy/Holy Word around for the past 7 levels. In a non-epic game, blasphemy will be the highest SLA you ever get. Half celestial is a little better, since you get a good fly speed, which means you can hover.

[Archetype-]

I dunno. The loss of hp isn't great, but at levels > 6, most of the other disadvantages are easily made up for with spell like abilities, bonuses to stats, and flight capabilities. In all honesty, I always thought the half-fiend template is pretty good for a martially-oriented character.

And it is indeed. Just a couple days ago, the party I DM had an encounter with a Half-Fiend Orc Fighter4/Barbarian2/Frenzied Berserker4. The party was only level 9, and the only good melee was an Aventi Swashbuckler/Lasher/Dread Pirate and.... the Orc's son, an Orc Fighter/Warblade/Eye of Gruumsh. With 154 HP when raging and a STR of 40 when raging and frenzying, the damage he could deal with his full blade was downright terrifying. The first round of combat, he full attacked the Warblade for 158 points of damage, and he was the one who got charged! And that was with me purposefully avoiding the Lion Totem-Leap Attack-Shock Trooper charger of doom. It would have killed him outright if I hadn't fudged the damage. The only way the party was able to down him was to wait until the non-lethal damage from frenzy was more than his HP, and I had given him armor that could essentially negate that. Only some tripping by the lasher and the Warblade using some called shots and Stone Dragon-ry allowed them to prevail. I didn't even take spell-like abilities into account with him. I will grant that the party isn't heavily optimized and it was a boss fight. In this case, it really threw them for a loop, and that was me pulling my punches everywhere from NPC conception to die-rolling.

The Half-Fiend template works great for a maritally-oriented henchman provided the party isn't in the habit of optimization-heavy characters. The bonuses to STR and CON make him a better tank, and the DEX allows for lighter armor. Imagine if you combined that with some ToB stuff, like a Crusader. <shudders> That is pretty much an ultimate tank/bodyguard. <laments that no DM has yet allowed him to use ToB goodness>

[Cuddly]

I'll point out that that was an ECL 16 character- you're unlikely see one in play alongside a bunch of level nines, since it'll 'll really outshine them. What with havig an ECL 50% higher than everyone else. It's a CR 12 challenge, which should certainly push the party to its limits. FB is also one of the cheesier charge builds out there; I would imagine that the danger of a frenzied ubercharger stems more from full BAB and power attack than a mediocre template.

The half fiend template can make for some fun on NPCs, for certain. There, the adjustment isn't so costly. Putting the template on something with low CR and lots of HD, for instance, can be quite fun. Giants with the template can really lay into the party with some nasty magic.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not to mention, if you have ToB in the midst, half fiend becomes even MORE filled with suck. You lose IL and get maneuevers later. Simply, it's sucky.

Really, if you want a good martial character, I could make a Swordsage or Warblade in ten seconds who will do more damage than a half fiend will see in it's life, and will do it sooner. Among other things, such as stunning just about any enemy, draining stats and levels, and leeching off life.

[Cuddly]

Not to mention, if you have ToB in the midst, half fiend becomes even MORE filled with suck. You lose IL and get maneuevers later. Simply, it's sucky.

Really, if you want a good martial character, I could make a Swordsage or Warblade in ten seconds who will do more damage than a half fiend will see in it's life, and will do it sooner. Among other things, such as stunning just about any enemy, draining stats and levels, and leeching off life.

Swordsage I can see (WRT), but warblade? Wouldn't an ubercharger be better built with FB?

[Archetype-]

Azerian, Cuddly... I'm well aware of all you've just stated. The application of the Half-Fiend template was pretty much another choice aimed at making sure this Orc wasn't so insanely powerful the party would have been slaughtered by him. If I had gone just straight down the ubercharger path (likely only using two levels of Fighter and six Frenzied Berserker), the party would be no more. Optimization is rarely considered at all around here. People think high-level monks are broken, even after I issued a challenge to someone and beat down his monk with ease using nothing but the PHB.

Regardless, methinks it might be better if either a straight humanoid were used or to just give a martially-oriented demon or devil those levels.

<continues to lament that he hasn't used ToB on the PC side of the DM screen>

Oh, and by the way, Cuddly... thanks for the evil idea. I'm starting to imagine that a pirate ship is going to be replacing its catapult fairly soon.

-Archetype