4e excerpt - Economics

[Charity]

The article is up here

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080514a

Looks quite interesting, some options for tweaking included... irritating obvious error on the XP table.

If anyone fancies prettying up the tables feel free, I am a lazy man...
heres the pretty picture though

Spoiler

Show

3rd Edition treasure works like this:

If I put 5th-level characters through 13-1/3 encounters of their level, they’ll gain enough experience to become 6th level. On average, they’ll also gain 21,333 gp, 33 sp, and 33 cp. Or that’s the goal, anyway.

In practice, the ochre jelly won’t have any treasure at all.

The young black dragon will have randomly-generated treasure worth 4,800 gp on average (triple standard), but depending on my dice it could come out to nothing at all, or the PCs could come away with a jackpot of over 50,000 gp in cash-equivalent treasure (coins, gems, and art) plus magic armor worth as much as 15,000 gp.

The 5th-level NPC bard will have 4,300 gp worth of gear (skewing heavily toward magic items that the characters will sell at half value).

If I’m a conscientious DM, I should add up the treasure value of all those 13-1/3 encounters and make sure it comes out somewhere close to the target 21,000 gp, so that my characters stay on track. Or else I can just do what most DMs do: trust that it’s all going to balance out, and end up with characters that are under-equipped (nine times out of ten) for their level.

4th Edition treasure works like this:

If I put 5th-level characters through 10 encounters of their level, they’ll gain enough experience to become 6th level. They’ll also gain four magic items above their level (one 6th, one 7th, one 8th, and one 9th), and total gold-equivalent treasure equal to double the value of a 5th-level magic item, or 2,000 gp. That’s the goal, and here’s how it works out in practice.

When I’m planning those 10 encounters, I look at the 5th-level treasure parcels in the DMG. That’s the treasure I’m going to give out, conveniently divided into ten chunks. The ochre jelly’s not guarding any of that treasure, but the dragon has (let’s say) three parcels.

The 5th-level NPC has a 6th-level item—not because he needs it, but because it’s one of the treasure parcels. The characters don’t find magic items that are beneath their notice—they won’t walk out of the drow enclave with a wheelbarrow full of +1 rapiers.

I might even tuck some of that treasure away in a locked vault without a monstrous guard, and save a parcel or two for a quest reward.

It’s a lot easier to be a conscientious DM in Fourth Edition. I don’t have to add up the value of all the treasure I’m giving out and make sure it adds up—I just have to check parcels off the list when I give them out, and make sure that I’ve crossed everything off the list by the time they hit 6th level.
--James Wyatt











Experience points, treasure, action points, and intangible rewards keep characters moving on from encounter to encounter, level to level, and adventure to adventure. Small rewards come frequently, while large rewards provide a big boost once in a while. Both are important.

Without frequent small rewards, players begin to feel like their efforts aren’t paying off. They’re doing a lot of work with nothing to show for it. Without occasional large rewards, encounters feel like pushing a button to get a morsel of food—a repetitive grind with no meaningful variation.

Characters gain experience points (XP) for every encounter they complete. They gain action points when they reach milestones, generally after every two encounters. They gain treasure as they complete encounters—not after every encounter, but sporadically over the course of an adventure. They gain a level after completing eight to ten encounters (including quests).

Gaining a level (see page 27 of the Player’s Handbook) is the most significant reward the game has to offer, but even that reward has its own tidal rhythm. Characters gain new attack powers at odd-numbered levels, and they gain new feats, ability score increases, and global adjustments to all their attacks and defenses at even-numbered levels. Both are exciting, but they feel different.

XP Rewards
The Experience Rewards table provides XP values for monsters of every level—minions, standard single monsters, elite monsters, and solo monsters. Use the “Standard Monster” column for NPCs, traps, and noncombat encounters (skill challenges and puzzles).

Following is the first 10 levels of the Experience Rewards table.

Experience Rewards

Monster Level Minion Standard Monster Elite Solo
1 100 25 200 500
2 125 31 250 625
3 150 38 300 750
4 175 44 350 875
5 200 50 400 1,000
6 250 63 500 1,250
7 300 75 600 1,500
8 350 88 700 1,750
9 400 100 800 2,000
10 500 125 1,000 2,500

Quest Rewards
When the characters finish a major quest that they’ve been pursuing for several sessions, divide the XP reward among all the characters who participated in the quest, even those who aren’t present in the particular session when the PCs complete it. That’s only fair—a major quest is like an encounter that stretches over multiple game sessions, and everyone who participates deserves to share in the reward.

Following is the first 10 levels of the Quest Rewards table.

Quest XP Rewards

PC Level Major Quest Reward Minor Quest Reward
4 PCs 5 PCs 6 PCs
1st 400 500 600 100
2nd 500 625 750 125
3rd 600 750 900 150
4th 700 875 1,050 175
5th 800 1,000 1,200 200
6th 1,000 1,250 1,500 250
7th 1,200 1,500 1,800 300
8th 1,400 1,750 2,100 350
9th 1,600 2,000 2,400 400
10th 2,000 2,500 3,000 500

Awarding Treasure
While experience points are fundamentally an encounter-based (or quest) reward, treasure is a larger-scale reward doled out over the course of an adventure. You plan treasure in terms of the eight to ten encounters it takes characters to advance from one level to the next.

During the course of gaining that level, expect a group of five characters to acquire four magic items ranging in level from one to four levels above the party level. In addition, they should find gold and other monetary treasure equal to the market price of two magic items of their level. So a 6th-level party would find four magic items, one each of levels 7 through 10, and gold worth two 6th-level items, or 3,600 gp.

At the start of an adventure, look at the adventure in chunks of eight to ten encounters. (Include major quest rewards as if they were encounters, and if the party completes five minor quests, include those five rewards as a single encounter as well.) For each of those chunks, look at the treasure parcels on the following pages. Find the level of the characters as they work through those encounters, and note the parcels of treasure you will give out over the course of the encounters.


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Heroic Tier Treasure Parcels

Party Level 5 Total Monetary Treasure: 2,000 gp

Magic item, level 9
Magic item, level 8
Magic item, level 7
Magic item, level 6
550 gp, or two 250 gp art objects + 50 gp, or one 500 gp gem + 50 gp
500 gp, or one 250 gp art object + 250 gp, or five 100 gp gems
340 gp, or three 100 gp gems + 40 gp, or one 250 gp art object + one potion of healing + 40 gp
340 gp, or one 250 gp art object + 90 gp, or 300 gp + 400 sp
160 gp, or one 100 gp gem + 60 gp, or one potion of healing + 110 gp
110 gp, or one 100 gp gem + 10 gp, or one potion of healing + 60 gp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paragon Tier Treasure Parcels

Party Level 15 Total Monetary Treasure: 50,000 gp

Magic item, level 19
Magic item, level 18
Magic item, level 17
Magic item, level 16
14,000 gp, or 140 pp, or one 7,500 gp art object + one 5,000 gp gem + one 1,500 gp art object
12,000 gp, or 120 pp, or one 7,500 gp art object + 4,500 gp
8,500 gp, or one 7,500 gp art object + 1,000 gp, or one 7,500 gp art object + one 1,000 gp gem
8,500 gp, or one 5,000 gp gem + one 2,500 gp art object + 1,000 gp, or eight 1,000 gp gems + 500 gp
5,000 gp, or one 5,000 gp gem, or one 2,500 gp art object + one 1,500 gp art object + one potion of vitality
2,000 gp, or two potions of vitality, or two 1,000 gp gems

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Epic Tier Treasure Parcels

Party Level 25 Total Monetary Treasure: 12,500 pp

Magic item, level 29
Magic item, level 28
Magic item, level 27
Magic item, level 26
3,500 pp, or 20 ad + one potion of life + one 50,000 gp art object, or 30 ad + two potions of recovery
3,200 pp, or 20 ad + two potions of recovery + one 50,000 gp art object + 200 pp, or 30 ad + four 5,000 gp gems
2,000 pp, or 20 ad, or 10 ad + four 15,000 gp art objects + eight 5,000 gp gems
2,000 pp, or 1,000 pp + two 50,000 gp art objects, or four 50,000 gp art objects
1,000 pp, or one potion of life, or twenty 5,000 gp gems
800 pp, or five 15,000 gp art objects + one 5,000 gp gem, or one 50,000 gp art object + six 5,000 gp gems

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Commerce
Even small villages give characters ready access to the gear they need to pursue their adventures. Provisions, tents and backpacks, and simple weapons are commonly available. Traveling merchants carry armor, military weapons, and more specialized gear. Most villages have inns that cater to travelers, where adventurers can get a hot meal and a bed, even if the quality leaves much to be desired. When characters stop in at a settlement to rest and restock their supplies, give them a bit of local flavor, such as the name of the inn where they spend the night, and move on with the adventure.

Even small villages rely heavily on trade with other settlements, including larger towns and cities. Merchants pass through regularly, selling necessities and luxuries to the villagers, and any good merchant has far-reaching contacts across the region. When characters have magic items to sell, a traveling merchant is in town—or will be soon—to take it off their hands. The same applies to exotic mundane goods as well: No one in the village makes silk rope or has much use for it, but merchants making their way between major cities carry it all the time.

Traveling merchants are also a great way to introduce adventure hooks to the characters as they conduct their business. Since they make their living traversing roads that are not as safe as they used to be, merchants hire competent guards to keep their goods safe. They also carry news from town to town, including reports of situations that cry out for adventurers to get involved.

These merchants can’t provide specialized services, however. When the characters are in need of a library or a dedicated sage, a trainer who can handle the griffon eggs they’ve found, or an architect to design their castle, they’re better off going to a large city than looking in a village. These services are less important in the economy of the game than magic items and other goods, so you shouldn’t feel as though you have to compromise your common sense for the sake of game play.

Of course, it’s natural for characters to travel far beyond their native villages as they pursue adventure. When they’re in the City of Brass, they should be able to buy even the most expensive magic items readily. If it doesn’t interfere with the flow of your game, it’s fine to expect that characters will travel to larger cities to do business as they reach higher levels and deal with larger sums of money.

The Magic Item Economy
Most of the time, characters find magic items on their adventures that are above their level. These are exciting items, and the characters have a strong incentive to keep these items and use them. As characters attain higher levels, the items they find might replace items they already have—the fighter finds a +3 flaming sword and no longer wants his +2 magic sword.

When this happens, the characters ordinarily sell those items—it’s slightly more beneficial to do that than to use the Disenchant Magic Item ritual, because the characters don’t have to pay the component cost. A merchant, agent, or fence buys items from the character at one-fifth the items’ value, in the hope of selling them at significant profit (usually, above the items’ value). Buyers are hard to find, but the profit to be made makes it worth the merchant’s risk.

Characters can use the monetary treasure they find, as well as the gold from selling items, to acquire new magic items. They can’t make items above their level, and can’t often afford items more than a few levels above theirs. It’s to their benefit to use the Enchant Magic Item ritual for items of their level or lower, rather than buying these items from merchants, agents, or fences, because of the 10–40 percent markup over items’ value that these sellers charge. When they want items above their levels, they have to go to merchants.

The game still works if you decide that magic items can’t be bought and sold in your world. Characters can rely entirely on rituals to duplicate the economy of buying and selling without money changing hands.

The residuum they collect from disenchanting items provides the expensive ritual components they need for the enchanting ritual. If you want characters to rely entirely on these rituals, remove the cost to perform the Disenchant Magic Item ritual, making it just as efficient as selling.

On the flip side, you can drive the characters to markets instead of rituals by altering the prices they pay for magic items. You can remove the random markup, or even alter it to allow the possibility of finding items for sale below normal price. For example, roll 1d6 as usual, but a 1 means the item is available for 10 percent below the base price, a 2 means it’s available for the base price, and 3–6 means a 10 percent to 40 percent markup. Items are readily available, and sometimes characters can get a good deal.


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[quiet1mi]

hmm...4e seems good for starting DMs... I might just take some things from that new fangled edition and apply it to my trusty 3.5 edition.

[The Sandman]

Looks like they cut back on WBL by quite a bit, unless I'm reading this wrong. Hopefully they made everything else more affordable to compensate.

[kamikasei]

Huh, just had my first real "D&D is turning into WoW" moment.

The 5th-level NPC has a 6th-level item—not because he needs it, but because it’s one of the treasure parcels. The characters don’t find magic items that are beneath their notice—they won’t walk out of the drow enclave with a wheelbarrow full of +1 rapiers.

I had an immediate bad reaction to this. I hope I'm being unfair. The NPC has an item "not because he needs it" - well, sure I might give an NPC an item with the intent that it be captured and used by a player rather than because the nature of the NPC demands he have the item, but I'll still give some thought as to why he has it and make sure it's something that he has a use for himself. "The characters don’t find magic items that are beneath their notice" - fair enough if they're altering the magic item economy to make hoarding items too low-level for you to use for later sale a waste of time, but how are they to "not find" these items?

[KIDS]

I threw the 3E rules for generating treasure out of the window for reasons described in this article (and PbP which screw up the routine even more), but I don't see myself recieving much help from 4E rules here. At best I'll know that there is much less material to screw up, compared to actual "gear checks" that exist in the current game.

However, the picture looks awesome, and the part on commerce is very well written too. And...

Disenchant Magic Item ritual

= WIN Finally it's included in D&D!!!

[Rutee]

I had an immediate bad reaction to this. I hope I'm being unfair. The NPC has an item "not because he needs it" - well, sure I might give an NPC an item with the intent that it be captured and used by a player rather than because the nature of the NPC demands he have the item, but I'll still give some thought as to why he has it and make sure it's something that he has a use for himself. "The characters don’t find magic items that are beneath their notice" - fair enough if they're altering the magic item economy to make hoarding items too low-level for you to use for later sale a waste of time, but how are they to "not find" these items?

This is also to an extent how 3e treasure works. I don't think the actual DMG will be so.. flippant about item placement, but it's hard to tell. Hate the attitude, and nothing of real interest to me in the article since WBL is probably the least interesting aspect of crunch in DnD to me.

[Abardam]

Residuum is a goofy name but if it means that magic items don't need XP to craft anymore then I'll take it! (But it brings up the question, where did the first magic items come from? Was there a big pool of residuum or something?)

Be sure to return Friday for a look at the magic items and quests!

Woot

[Titanium Dragon]

I haven't used random treasure generation charts since second edition, but it looks vaguely more usable now. I doubt I'll really use it, but if the guidelines are good enough I might plunk out stuff according to them rather than making it up so much.

[Rockphed]

They don't notice stuff that isn't worth their time because of the Magic Threshold they described a couple previews ago. Basically, a monster's innate magic overrides the effects of weak magic items.

On the other hand, I agree that all magic items should have a purpose for being carried(even if it is just "The last guy we bandits mugged had this funny trinket. We figured, since he was so annoying, it would look better mounted in his skull.")

However, the most important question has not been answered. Is that chick a human standing in front of a large chest full of money, or a Halfling standing in front of a smaller chest? The human is obviously the better option.Give it to me baby. Thats right, keep it coming! Give me the money!

[MelkorsHalo]

However, the most important question has not been answered. Is that chick a human standing in front of a large chest full of money, or a Halfling standing in front of a smaller chest? The human is obviously the better option.Give it to me baby. Thats right, keep it coming! Give me the money!

Looks vaguely like Lidda to me, so i'm betting it's the latter.

[Sebastian]

However, the most important question has not been answered. Is that chick a human standing in front of a large chest full of money, or a Halfling standing in front of a smaller chest? The human is obviously the better option.Give it to me baby. Thats right, keep it coming! Give me the money!

She have dreadlocks, she is obviusly a 4e halfling.

[kamikasei]

They don't notice stuff that isn't worth their time because of the Magic Threshold they described a couple previews ago. Basically, a monster's innate magic overrides the effects of weak magic items.

Hrmmm...

So the idea is that, instead of fighting low-level soldiers who've been made slightly more challenging by giving them low-level magic items, you'd be fighting slightly higher-level soldiers with mundane items and innate bonuses?

I guess that could kind of make sense if magic weapons etc. are being treated as very much rarer than in 3.5e. I saw it as more a mechanic for more monstrous enemies, though, rather than humanoid foes. If every enemy is going to have nonmagical gear by default, bonuses from level, and then additional bonuses to match what players achieve via magic items, it could make a certain amount of sense, but I have (less severe) concerns about verisimilitude. (If the Drow Captain with his +3 keen rapier hits only as well as his mundanely-equipped lieutenant, I'm not wild about that. Of course, if the two drow both have +2 innate bonuses, so the captain's sword gives him an extra +1 and a higher crit range, that's not a bad distinction. I can see it leading to "boss" or "leader" enemies having items that provide special abilities in preference to raw numerical bonuses, which might be nice.)

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, now they're down to taking their earlier product, 3E, out of context to make it look ridiculous. Nobody seriously plans sessions with the goal of giving players 33 copper pieces, and leveling them exactly every 13.333 encounters.

If 5th-level characters fight 5th-level monsters using their 5th-level powers and are expected to gain 7th-level items, then it would seem that they simply upped the level of all items by two in order to make them look "special".

Overall, the biggest mistake here lies in the apparent assumption that the players will get all those treasure piles. Which I'm sure that in most published modules, they do, but nevertheless it is railroading at its finest.

The system explained here isn't bad at all, but WOTC shows a shocking lack of understanding that people might, just might, play the game in a slightly different fashion than their R&D division expects. Incidentally this very sentiment is the exact cause for a number of problems with 3E; one might have expected them to learn from that mistake.



Other silly stuff: "Without frequent small rewards, players begin to feel like their efforts aren’t paying off" - not where I'm playing, they won't.
"They gain action points when they reach milestones, generally after every two encounters" - if 50% of all encounters are considered milestones, that makes milestoning a meaningless metric.
I can see some munchkins using these tables as a substitute for the appraisal skill.

And is it just me or does this table indicate that, other than some healing potions, expendable magic items no longer exist?

[Blanks]

However, the most important question has not been answered. Is that chick a human standing in front of a large chest full of money, or a Halfling standing in front of a smaller chest? The human is obviously the better option

How about someone tells me why all the races are so humanlike that you can't tell them apart?

Elf - Human with ears
Dwarf - Human with beard
Halfelf - See elf
Halfling - short human
Halforc - Ugly human
Gnome - Human with big nose

The only race im positively sure what is when i see it, is a mindflayer

[Talic]

The system explained here isn't bad at all, but WOTC shows a shocking lack of understanding that people might, just might, play the game in a slightly different fashion than their R&D division expects. Incidentally this very sentiment is the exact cause for a number of problems with 3E; one might have expected them to learn from that mistake.

The way I see it, they did. They have options for people that want magic shop worlds, and those that do not, preferring their magic items to be a more special thing. They show how the rules can be altered to accommodate that preference. They then move on to present another modular system, the packets of treasure system. As 90% of people didn't follow 3rd edition's treasure system on the primary basis of its complexity and non-realism, it stands to reason that the next attempt will be to simplify and add clarity to the system. I think they've done that somewhat well. If you prefer the realism? They've shown how packeted they made the system, so that you can *YOINK* it right out and replace it with whatever method you deem best. By making the system modular, you can remove any modules that you find counterintuitive.

Other silly stuff: "Without frequent small rewards, players begin to feel like their efforts aren’t paying off" - not where I'm playing, they won't.
"They gain action points when they reach milestones, generally after every two encounters" - if 50% of all encounters are considered milestones, that makes milestoning a meaningless metric.

I think the designers have a slightly different idea than you. Their idea of a campaign seems to be that every other encounter should be devoted to furthering the story. While that may be a faster or slower pace, and the term "milestone" may be used a bit liberally, the concept of getting some information or accomplishment that furthers the story in half your encounters isn't a bad one.

Many of your other points are pretty much spot on, though.

[SamTheCleric]

Quick post before I run out the door...

Gimmie those cookies!

[AslanCross]

She have dreadlocks, she is obviusly a 4e halfling.

That's what I was thinking too.

Anyway, I like how the treasure is handled. While generating random treasure in 3.5 is sort of fun, I sometimes get frustrated by the treasures I generate. A lot of times I just turn up lots of redundant scrolls. Of course I reroll, but I still find it unfair that most magical treasures at low levels are scrolls (they have the highest chance of appearing) and thus benefit only casters.

[hewhosaysfish]

On the whole: this looks quite good. A simple system for divvying up loot by having explicitly defined parcels. Nice.
I also like the way that a 15th level party will only have several hundred times the yearly income of an average peasant, rather than several thousand times.

A few worries though...

1)
Treasure seems to be independent of the number of PCs. As they progress from 5th level to 6th level, a party of 4 PCs will find the same 10 treasure parcels that a party of 5 PCs will... despite the fact that the party of 5 will be fighting more monsters both overall and per encounter.
Or is this 10 parcels per PC?

2) I'm not sure about this whole "you never find magic items that aren't shiny enough" business.
If/When I DM I would be tempted to have the low level magic items abstracted away as part of the gems/art objects loot. They're still there but the have no purpose other than to be sold for cash - which is what happens anyway but we don't have to explain why none of the orcs that attacked our players had swords.

Of course, if the rules did explicitly lump useless gear in with gems and art then no doubt a few people would have went " They're giving out 'vendor trash' now?! 4e is turning DnD into a MOREPIG*!"


3)
And as for the whole "bard carrying an item he can't use" thing, I think it's dumb. Not because of anything that's changed: with a long tradition of random treasure tables also comes a long tradition of explaining why a grimlock barbarian was carrying a Rod of Extend Spell.
A conscientious DM would roll treasure beforehand and distribute it to sensible creatures/places, invent rationales for its presence, make intelligent monsters use is sensibly or -failing all that- swap it for something more characterful.
Of course the DMG only hints at such processes (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm AFB).
4e fails not because it does something worse but because it makes exactly the same mistake.


*If MMORPGs are Morepigs and CRPGs are Crappages, are TTRPGs Tarpegs?

[AKA_Bait]

Honestly, the first thing I thought upon skimming this article was "wow the 4e OGL is going to suck."

They just posted 2 of the things they utterly refused to make part of the 3.x OGL, exp tables and wbl. They are now 'fair use' able. This really makes me worry about what the OGL is going to look like.

[Jarlax]

ok cool, the new rewards system seems fine to me, they added more mechanical elements to gaining XP and stripped out the old system for monetary rewards, which was a total pain to use anyway.

the whole DEing (disenchanting for those not familiar with the process) items is a WOW element, it cant be disputed, but its a good element to include and its not "OMG such WOW rippoff", because enchanting is a completely different process in wow, even if DEing are very alike in both systems. i will probably rename residium to arcane dust, or void crystals or something cool wow already took.

but the principal is sound, don't toss or sell those three items we replaced last adventure, DE em, and forge a single new item equal to our level. although we don't know the specifics of these rituals yet, first impressions is that it beats the hell out of the 3e system for creating magic items. where the item cost is ((X+y)/B)*X and everyone would rather pay retail then waste time calculating the discount price or take the feats to make the items.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

So the article, stupid. The mechanics, more so.

"Players don't find small rewards/they get X from each encounter."

Uh huh, and since when exactly has a DM ever been able to stop the Players from facing weaker opposition sometimes. Is every bandit ever automatically level appropriate? What if they deal with someone of lower level? Why can't they get a barrel of +1 Rapiers?

Shops: So now Shop owners buy at 1/4th price and sell at over market price? That's dumb. In 3.5 I wondered why powerful people didn't kill shop keepers and take the items. The most obvious reason was because they had infinite wealth after level 9, the next would be because it wasn't that good a deal.

In 4E? Hell, anyone into Paragon levels with even a hint of evil has every reason in the world to kill shop keepers left and right for that gouging.

[Tengu]

It's amusing that you get more experience for killing Solo if you're higher level.

As for the actual article, I was disappointed and misled by the title - I expected an article on costs of items and services.

[Rutee]

Honestly, the first thing I thought upon skimming this article was "wow the 4e OGL is going to suck."

They just posted 2 of the things they utterly refused to make part of the 3.x OGL, exp tables and wbl. They are now 'fair use' able. This really makes me worry about what the OGL is going to look like.

Uh. Posting it doesn't make it Fair Use. Fair Use looks at intent as well. It's Fair use for a /while/ sure, but in any context where the OGL would be an issue (EG Game design), use of 4e mechanics stops being Fair Use.

In short, the 4 vectors under which Fair Use comes up, straight from the US Copyright Office:

1: Intent of the use (If you actually needed the OGL, you're boned here)
2: Nature of the Copyrighted work (Commercial, which is rarely a good sign for your use for other commercial reasons; I've heard it stated before that you can't copyright game mechanics, but I haven't the inclination to check this out myself. I will not accept it as true until then, so)
3: Amount and Substantiality of the work in question (You'd get off pretty well here, since it's only a fragment of the work)
4: Effect on Market Value (Reduces it through proliferation, albeit not by much).

Effectively, the previews have no effect on the OGL, or on Fair Use.

In 4E? Hell, anyone into Paragon levels with even a hint of evil has every reason in the world to kill shop keepers left and right for that gouging.

Ah yes, the school of "Kill it for the slightest insult" evil. I don't think you can really /make it/ to Paragon Levels with that kind of stupidity. Also, check out the gouging you see in the real world. You don't think CEOs have 50 million a year income, and even larger golden parachutes, because they're selling things at anything remotely close to the cost of production, do you?

Also, CoV, the tone is the only thing different here. By the books, 3.5 was the /exact freaking same/.

[Starsinger]

I like this in theory. I do not think I'm going to like it in practice. While it's a step up from 3.5's WBL system (but then again, so few things aren't) it seems like it will become mindless and repetitive. If I run a bunch of games that upgrade from 5th to 6th level, the fact that the treasure parcels are the same everytime is going to grate on my nerves. Ah well, it still beats trying to figure of that +3 Flaming Ranseur is going to be used, and counted at full value, or sold and counted at half when determining WBL.

[Oslecamo]

Rant:


Next week, it'll be revealed that each character can take two professions. They divide themselves in professions to gather materials and professions to transform said materials in usefull stuff.

Once a character picks a mildly usefull magic item, it glues itself to his soul and cannont be used by another character EVER !

There will also be online autcion houses where players can sell their magic items to other players worldwide.

Items will also get broken with use and will demand constant visits to specialized NPCs for repairment. No player character can ever learn the repair power,not even if they ascend to godhood.

Any similarity with Wow is PURE coincidence. (It's not like they even bothered to create a new name for the process)

Ok, now,who exactly follows the treasure rules to the letter in 3.x?

Also, it's not like there weren't other ways for PCs to gain money. Any half decent rogue could probably clean a village from anything valuable whitout fighting or performing quests or anything special.Just plain old stealing and runing away.

However,for what it seems, the only way one can get money is by killing monsters and making quests. And the monsters will NEVER again have loot that makes sense with them.

Because in 3e, at least,when you killed a monster wielding a +2 bastard sword, you would get a +2 bastard sword.

Now you kill an ogre with a +3 mace, the mace disapears in thin air and it's replaced with a +3 firesword.

Again,any similarities with Wow are pure coincidence.

Way to go Wotc, just when you were making me think taht 4e may actually be something really refreshing.

As a final note, if the only way they find to give the right treasure to the party is the DM having pre made all the rewards for all the battles the PCs are going to fight, well, it's hard to be cheaper.

End rant

[SamTheCleric]

I have no feelings one way or the other on this.

The 3rd edition method of loot was stupid. This is one step up from stupid, which doesn't make it good.

I'll need to see it in practice.

[RS14]

I think the new system for awarding magic items is probably an improvement. It will still be very much like 3.5 - There are rules for random generation of items, but in pracitce many DMs ignore them and just allocate wealth in each encounter (don't we?) - it works pretty well for a dungeon crawl. In 4e, I predict that many people will simply ignore the new treasure rules. Deciding on treasure for the next ten encounters simply isn't feasable in all games. Hell, I don't know what my players will be doing five encounters from now, but that's alright.

Disenchanting Magic Item rituals seem slightly too metagame-y for my taste, like the magic shop always has been. The ritual idea for disposing of them does seem intriguing though, and I can imagine using magic items as material components. I'll need to give this some thought.

[kamikasei]

Because in 3e, at least,when you killed a monster wielding a +2 bastard sword, you would get a +2 bastard sword.

Now you kill an ogre with a +3 mace, the mace disapears in thin air and it's replaced with a +3 firesword.

Based on what?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Ah yes, the school of "Kill it for the slightest insult" evil. I don't think you can really /make it/ to Paragon Levels with that kind of stupidity. Also, check out the gouging you see in the real world. You don't think CEOs have 50 million a year income, and even larger golden parachutes, because they're selling things at anything remotely close to the cost of production, do you?

1) You aren't killing them for insulting you. You are killing them because you can get 6 times you WBL in items by killing one shop keeper, since they charge you six times as much as they give you for the same item.

2) CEOs have protection, CEOs are distant not 5ft away, and the real World doesn't have adventurers who are quite literally capable of withstanding 30 times the damage that you can, while being able to deal 100 times more.

In real life, weapons are weapons and everyone dies, if life used D&D rules a Paragon level character could strap a vest of explosives to himself, then blow up a subway station, and everyone would be dead, except him.

Also, CoV, the tone is the only thing different here. By the books, 3.5 was the /exact freaking same/.

No, because in 3.5 you spent twice as much to get an item as you would get for selling it. In 4E you spend 6 times as much.

[Oslecamo]

Based on what?

First, this excerpt from the srd that EVERYBODY always forgets:

Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home. Treasure can include coins, goods, and items.

Wich means the DMis suposed to roll the treasure before the battle,and if something usefull comes out that the monster could use during battle, then it will use it during battle.

However, as normal, players only read what they want to read. Nobody ever notices that rule, and then they blame Wotc for monsters don't using their own treasure,when it's their own fault that the monster isn't using the usefull parts of their treasure.

Now some even more specific monsters:

Erineyes gives automatically rope and a +1flaming composite longbow,plus treasure.

Balors give out automatically a+1 large vorpal longsword and a +1 flaming whip, providing you can disarm them before delivering the final blow,plus treasure.

Marilith's carry 1d4 magic weapons,wich comes in handy when you have 6 hands

Salamanders never have flamable treasure.