As an AoO-based character, how to raise damage?

[Frosty]

Assuming you're not shock-trooping your way into having huge amounts of damage with Power Attack without sacrificing accuracy, what would you do to maximize your AoO damage as a crusader or warblade? This is also a question of how to raise to-hit, because if you can do that, you can Power Attack for more. High Strength is always a priority of course. I guess I can use properties like Flaming or Shocking or Acidic to help. What else can I do? I'll definitely have Bracers of Opportunity, so I can power Attack for two more than I normally would for an extra +4 damage.

[Reel On, Love]

Deft Opportunist feat + Power Attack.

[Frosty]

Terrific. But of course, if I power attack too much, my normal Strikes will start missing. :(

[DrowVampyre]

Robilar's Gambit + Karmic Strike + Stormguard Warrior = Sacrifice the first few AoO's you'd normally get to add insane bonus to-hit and damage. Add Double Hit if you're a TWFer (and can somehow fit the feats) to make it twice as blenderlicious.

[Duke of URL]

Actually, I'd consider at least a one-level Swordsage dip (or burn another feat on getting access to a Shadow Hand stance), take the Shadow Blade feat (and Weapon Finesse, of course) to add DEX to damage with Shadow Hand weapons, and go to town on boosting DEX above all else (+AC, +AB, +Damage, +AoOs).

Curiously enough, there is a reach weapon on the Shadow Hand list -- the infamous spiked chain.

Throw in some Fighter levels to get the extra feats you need to pull this off, but with Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, and Shadow Blade, you can proceed from there for any AoO-based build you like.

Oh, and I don't think that Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike work together -- you can't get two AoOs from the same action.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Get a Vampiric enhancement on your weapon. It doesn't seem too good, only adding 1d6, but health regeneration goes the long way with lots of attacks.

Then, I'd recommend some magebane and holy. It'll work on everything BUT a PC like meleer.

[paigeoliver]

A 2-handed power attacking character should NOT use enhancements like flaming, you should buy straight pluses.

A flaming enhancement adds 1d6 damage that half of your foes will be immune to, which means a big fat 1.75 extra damage on average.

Adding an extra plus does 1 extra damage right off the top AND allows you to power attack for 2 more damage, making it worth 3 and that extra damage hurts EVERYTHING.

Straight pluses are a far better enhancement than most people realize they are, particularly if you have power attack or combat expertise.

[Azerian Kelimon]

You kiddin'? Straight plusses are the worst bonus you have, as they're terribly cost inefficient. Much better to get irresistible d6's, like Holy, vampiric, or Magebane.

[paigeoliver]

Holy doesn't work against all foes, magebane doesn't work against all foes, I don't know what vampiric does, but I bet it doesn't work against all foes.

An extra plus converted to power attack with a 2 handed weapon is 3 damage every time and nothing is immune to it. Extra dice give 1d6 for each extra plus, average 3.5 and they are worthless against many foes and in many situations.

You kiddin'? Straight plusses are the worst bonus you have, as they're terribly cost inefficient. Much better to get irresistible d6's, like Holy, vampiric, or Magebane.

[Duke of URL]

Actually, straight pluses are the worst enhancement you can have, because any full caster in your party can cast GMW on a simple +1 (with features) weapon to turn it into a +N (with features) weapon, and the spell has pretty good duration.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not to mention, magebane works against every enemy with SLA'S. Holy works against every evil enemy. The number of enemies that are evil or have SLA'S is staggering. It virtually works against anything.

And vampiric works against anything. Yes, even Undead. It's THAT good.

[Duke of URL]

magebane works against every enemy with SLA'S

I thought that was errata'd to say it only works against actual casters. The original version is simply too strong, honestly, as most creatures (except for low level ones) have at least one SLA.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Unless there was an errata that I missed, it works against SLA mobs. Which is not too bad, maybe it could be a +2 enhancement, but that's enough.

[Kantolin]

Holy's average damage is 7. Comparably, power attacking away the extra 2 to-hit you get from a +2 deals 6 extra damage (4 from the power attack, 2 from the +2).

That's certainly close enough that it's iffy whether or not to care about one or the other being better, especially when the +2 weapon can be not power attacked away, giving you a better to-hit if you prefer that fancy.

Of course, that doesn't effect greater magic weapon castings, but hey.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Holy's average damage is 7. Comparably, power attacking away the extra 2 to-hit you get from a +2 deals 6 extra damage (4 from the power attack, 2 from the +2).

That's certainly close enough that it's iffy whether or not to care about one or the other being better, especially when the +2 weapon can be not power attacked away, giving you a better to-hit if you prefer that fancy.

Of course, that doesn't effect greater magic weapon castings, but hey.

Holy and magebane's damage is actually 9. You roll an extra 2d6, plus your weapon is counted as a weapon of an enhancement bonus two levels higher. So Holy and Magebane get you more power attack, more damage, and all of that at a lesser enhancement cost.

Hey, did somebody hear a thread being won?

[Cainen]

Take a +1d6 enchantment and have one of the casters cast Greater Magic Weapon on it, as was suggested. You're doing more than you would've normally, and you can still power attack for higher damage with even greater efficiency, since GMW doesn't cost anything.

Or Holy/Magebane, as was said earlier.

[Frosty]

I am reading the MAGEBANE enhancement in the MiC righ tnow. Says nothing about SLAs. The MageSlayer feat does affect SLAs, which may be where people get their confusion.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I am reading the MAGEBANE enhancement in the MiC righ tnow. Says nothing about SLAs. The MageSlayer feat does affect SLAs, which may be where people get their confusion.

Nope, magebane affects anyone who can cast arcane spells or has invocations. If a monster has even one spell that could possibly be an arcane spell under some published list, it's affected by magebane, as activating the SLA counts as being able to cast that spell.

[MorkaisChosen]

I don't think that's right. Maybe it's what the rules say, but whether it's right or not is a different question.

Using an SLA isn't the same as casting an Arcane spell. It's the same as using a spell, yeah, but not an Arcane one. What makes a spell arcane or not isn't if it's been an arcane spell in one PrC in a splatbook somewhere, it's the way it's used by the specific caster.

[Prince_of_Blades]

The confusion might be coming fromt the Magebane enhancement found in Complete Arcane, which does apply to creatures with SLA's. I can't speak for the MIC version.

Also, Holy is just a flat +2d6 against evil. No higher enhancement bonus.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Ouchie, applied the bonus to the two of 'em. Correction accepted.

Morkai: Since when we think about the fairness of RAW?

[DrowVampyre]

Oh, and I don't think that Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike work together -- you can't get two AoOs from the same action.

It's debated, but by RAW I think it's generally seen as working for one simple reason - Robilar's triggers when someone attacks you, Karmic Strike triggers when they hit you, and they resolve at different times (Karmic simultaneous with their attack, Robilar's after their attack). So yes, you can only get one AoO from any given trigger, but with this set you have two separate triggers that happen right on top of each other. But check with your DM before building a character around it, cause it's their interpretation that matters for you. ^_^

[Swooper]

Holy and magebane's damage is actually 9. You roll an extra 2d6, plus your weapon is counted as a weapon of an enhancement bonus two levels higher. So Holy and Magebane get you more power attack, more damage, and all of that at a lesser enhancement cost.

Hey, did somebody hear a thread being won?

Is is just me misunderstanding what you're saying here, or are you really misreading the magic weapon rules? The 'counts as a weapon of +2 higher bonus' does NOT affect your hit or damage, it's ONLY for price and such purposes (like possibly the CL of the item).

Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm

[Azerian Kelimon]

Maybe YOU should read up magebane. In addition to the +1 enhancement cost it has, it adds 2d6 to damage against all the jazz mentioned above AND your weapon counts as a weapon of two enhancement points higher, thus making a +1 magebane weapon work like a +3 against enemies weak to magebane.

[Draz74]

Right ... just like the Bane property. It works for Magebane; it doesn't work for Holy.

And Magebane has been errata'ed to not work against creatures that merely have SLAs. If nothing else, its modified reprint in MIC effectively serves as errata.

So yes, in a party with access to GMW (or Metaphysical Weapon, which is even better), Holy and Magebane are definitely better enhancements than +'s. In a party without access to these things ... they're still probably marginally better. But it's close.

[Kantolin]

Incidentally, I never mentioned magebane - I'm unfamiliar with it. I was strictly speaking about holy, which is in fact just a 2d6 - there's no reference of it being treated as a weapon 2 enhancement higher.

So without ready access to Greater Magic Weapon, there isn't enough difference between the damage of holy and the damage of a +2 to matter - the +2 then has the advantage that, if you'd like to connect more frequently, you can not power attack the damage away.

Throw in the fact that it works on neutrals, which are frequent enough to fight, and the +2 certainly seems acceptable compared to holy.

Magebane definitely sounds useful, though - to the point where I could see about everyone having it if it does indeed work on SLAs.

[Prince_of_Blades]

I'm leery of suggesting this, but the Martial Discipline weapon ability, from ToB, might work. The ability gives you + 1 on attack rolls if you know a maneuver from the keyed discipline, and if you are currently using a maneuver, the bonus increases to +3. I'm not sure if it works with stances, though. The text says maneuvers, and every where else in the book they make a point of the differences between maneuvers and stances. However, the example they show gives the higher bonus for using a stance of the keyed discipline.

[Swooper]

Maybe YOU should read up magebane. In addition to the +1 enhancement cost it has, it adds 2d6 to damage against all the jazz mentioned above AND your weapon counts as a weapon of two enhancement points higher, thus making a +1 magebane weapon work like a +3 against enemies weak to magebane.

Ah, I'm not familiar with magebane so I assumed it worked like holy vs. spellcasters since you mentioned them in the same breath. Never mind me.

[Thrawn183]

There is a fighter Alternate Class Feature (I think), that lets you make a single attack at your highest attack bonus as a full-round action that lets you do double damage. It specifically applies to all attacks made that round. So if you get 1 less AoO than normal attacks or more it increases your damage output over an entire round.

This is particularly good in that AoO's are always made at your highest attack bonus which allows you to power attack more, further increasing your damage output.

[Kurobara]

If you've got a feat to spare, it might be worth considering a dip in Bard along with the Song of the White Raven feat - Inspire Courage will net you more to-hit and damage, as a morale bonus which isn't too common so is likely to stack with pretty much whatever else you want to do. (Either a one-level dip just to get Inspire Courage or a two-level dip to get 1st-level Bard spells and thus Inspirational Boost is probably best.) The nice thing is it'll boost your other party members' damage output too.

I played a Bard 4/Crusader 11 once using this build modified to use AoOs instead of TWF because I was rather sick of TWF characters, she was pretty effective. Unless you're building specifically for that sort of build like I was, though, which I'm guessing you're not, more of a level- and feat-sink than I mentioned above is probably unreasonable.