4e excerpt - Swarms

[ShadowSiege]

Original Article

And the article in its entirety:

Spoiler

Show

Excerpts: Swarms
4th Edition Monster Manual

We’ve looked at minions, but how about even smaller creatures appearing in even greater number? In today’s preview, R&D’s Mike Mearls shows us how swarms work in 4th Edition.

Well, the release of the new game is right around the corner, so it's time to blow the lid off this thing. Since 4E was first announced, gamers have besieged us with phone calls, emails, and even a protest march demanding one thing above all else: How do swarms work in 4E?

Well, the day is at hand. We're about to pull back the curtain on what might be the greatest stride forward in swarm design known to mankind. But first, how did we end up in this glorious state?

Well, swarms are cool, but researching how we think swarms might actually work into D&D was not so cool. For this, we locked a designer in a sealed box with 100,000 ants. We threw rocks at hornets' nests, drop kicked beehives, and stuck our hands into crates of scorpions. From these experiences, we drew the following conclusions:

1. Oh my god, insects can sting.
2. No, seriously. That HURTS.
3. We decided that any of those feats were more fun than the 3E swarm rules.

The 3E swarm rules fell into the trap of simply trying to model reality as we know it, from movies, comics, or the real world. That might be a great move if you want to build a simulator, but it isn't so hot for a game. Instead, we wanted rules that were evocative. You should feel like you're fighting a swarm, but that feeling should be less like boredom and more like "GET THESE THINGS OFF OF ME."

So, a few highlights about 4E swarms:

1. Swarms are hard to hurt. Hacking at a pile of bugs with a sword is inefficient, but it's also scary to face a monster that's hard to hurt. The swarm marches on in a relentless wave. We liked that feel, and we could easily set the swarm's hit points to balance the effect.
2. They're hard to push around, again to make them feel relentless.
3. They can go almost anywhere. Closing a door doesn't do much to slow down a swarm. The bugs simply crawl under it, or through the cracks in the door's frame.

Originally, a single swarm "monster" was four Medium size groups of creatures. They worked similarly to minions, but the effect on the table was disappointing. Swarms didn't feel like tides of hungry critters, more like disposable bags of hit points. We tried toughening them, but that worked against the 4-for-1 discount they offered. In the end, we dropped the split and worked to simplify and streamline our existing rules.

So, now the swarm piece of the 4E puzzle has fallen into place. 4th Edition is right around the corner, and with it endless waves of hungry bugs, drakes, and other nasties.
--Mike Mearls

From the Monster Manual Glossary:

Swarm: A swarm is considered a single monster even though it is composed of several Tiny creatures. Most single swarms are Medium, but some can be larger.

A swarm takes half damage from melee and ranged attacks. It is vulnerable to close and area attacks, as indicated in the monster’s stat block.

A swarm is immune to forced movement (pull, push, and slide) effects from melee and ranged attacks. Close or area attacks that impose forced movement affect the swarm normally.

A swarm can enter or move through an enemy’s space; this movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. An enemy can enter a space occupied by a swarm, but the space occupied by the swarm is considered difficult terrain, and doing so provokes an opportunity attack.

A swarm can squeeze through any opening large enough to accommodate even one of its constituent creatures. For example, a swarm of bats can squeeze through any opening large enough for one of the bats to squeeze through. See the Player’s Handbook for squeezing rules.

Needlefang Drake Swarm

Savage marauders the size of cats, needlefang drakes swarm over their victims, pull them to ground, and strip them to the bone in seconds.
Needlefang Drake Swarm
Level 2 Soldier
Medium natural beast (reptile, swarm)
XP 125
Initiative +7Senses Perception +7
Swarm Attack aura 1; the needlefang drake swarm makes a basic attack as a free action against each enemy that begins its turn in the aura.
HP 38; Bloodied 19
AC 18; Fortitude 15, Reflex 17, Will 14
Immune fear; Resist half damage from melee and ranged attacks;
Vulnerable 5 against close and area attacks.
Speed 7
MeleeSwarm of Teeth (standard; at-will)
+8 vs. AC; 1d10 + 4 damage, or 2d10 + 4 damage against a prone target.
MeleePull Down (minor; at-will)
+7 vs. Fortitude; the target is knocked prone.
Alignment Unaligned
Languages —
Str 15 (+3)
Dex 18 (+5)
Wis 12 (+2)
Con 14 (+3)
Int 2 (-3)
Cha 10 (+1)

Needlefang Drake Tactics
Incited by hunger, needlefang drakes fearlessly rush toward their prey, knock it prone (using pull down), and use their swarm of teeth to feast upon it.

Stirge Swarm

Stirges are bloodsucking, bat-like horrors that lurk in caves and ruins. Lone stirges are little more than pests and nuisances—but they are rarely encountered alone. Stirges tend to gather in large flocks that can exsanguinate an adult human in a matter of minutes.
Stirge Swarm
Level 12 Brute
Medium natural beast (swarm)
XP 700
Initiative +9Senses Perception +6; darkvision
Swarm Attack aura 1; the stirge swarm makes a basic attack as a free action against each enemy that begins its turn in the aura.
HP 141; Bloodied 70
AC 24; Fortitude 21, Reflex 24, Will 23
Resist half damage from melee and ranged attacks;
Vulnerable 10 against close and area attacks
Speed 2, fly 6 (hover)
MeleeBloodsucking Swarm (standard; at-will)
+15 vs. AC; 2d6 + 4 damage, and ongoing 5 damage (save ends).
Alignment Unaligned
Languages —
Skills Stealth +14
Str 8 (+5)
Dex 16 (+9)
Wis 10 (+6)
Con 11 (+6)
Int 1 (+1)
Cha 4 (+3)

Stirge Swarm Tactics
Stirge swarms gave rise to the old dwarven saying: “I don’t have to outrun the stirges, I only have to outrun you.” A hungry swarm will chase its prey for miles, if need be.

Be sure to return Monday for a look at Fallcrest!

Not much to say. The needlefang drake one looks especially nasty with the knockdown and double damage to prone targets. I'd have preferred the excerpt on undead that they promised us.

Additionally, exsanguinate is a great word.

[EvilElitest]

well this looks pretty good actually, generally how i imagined swarms
from
EE

[Tough_Tonka]

Wow what are the odds we'd post this link at the same time?

[ShadowSiege]

Wow what are the odds we'd post them this this link at the same time?

It is a rather odd occurrence.

well this looks pretty good actually, generally how i imagined swarms

*GASP* EE approves of something 4e. The Brass City must have frozen over :p

[EvilElitest]

*GASP* EE approves of something 4e. The Brass City must have frozen over :p

Actually, through your fanaticism might not allow you to see it, i'm actually pointed out some good things about 4E. For example, i supported the idea of a new edition when it was first announced. I don't want to destroy 4E, i just don't like. Trying to have a critical option on 4E, so simply saying "OH gods, he is an anti 4E fanatics" only hurts your own points
from
EE

[Cuddly]

Actually, through your fanaticism might not allow you to see it, i'm actually pointed out some good things about 4E. For example, i supported the idea of a new edition when it was first announced. I don't want to destroy 4E, i just don't like. Trying to have a critical option on 4E, so simply saying "OH gods, he is an anti 4E fanatics" only hurts your own points
from
EE

Wow, that's a lot of ad homs bundled into one paragraph.

[EvilElitest]

Wow, that's a lot of ad homs bundled into one paragraph.

Part of a super plan,. i don't like being characterized and i don't like my points being considered less valid because of my options
from
EE

[ShadowSiege]

Wow, that's a lot of ad homs bundled into one paragraph.

I apparently didn't make it clear that I was saying it in a tongue-in-cheek fashion.

[EvilElitest]

I apparently didn't make it clear that I was saying it in a tongue-in-cheek fashion.

Fair enough

On topic, i've always liked the ideas of swarms in 3E, and i think 4E is handling what made swarms good well

from
EE

[Rockphed]

For those of us with who aren't rules lawyer Ninjas, what are the differences between 3rd edition swarms and 4th edition swarms?

[EvilElitest]

For those of us with who aren't rules lawyer Ninjas, what are the differences between 3rd edition swarms and 4th edition swarms?

Apart from mechanical details, not much i think, unless i missed something, i think the idea of swarms is still the same
from
EE

[tyckspoon]

It seems like they're a little bit more fragile- there is no absolute immunity to physical damage, so you're not completely boned without area damage. They're also smaller. A default 3.5 swarm took up a ten-foot space (four squares), while these example swarms are both Medium, which presumably still means they only take one square and are probably composed of fewer creatures.

They seem to have gotten more dangerous, since they retain the ability to make a free attack (any known definition or function of 'aura' yet? I'm assuming it means every adjacent square) in addition to having a normal attack. The example Needlefang swarm looks particularly mean, with a good chunk of HP, free attack, and ability to knock down victims.

[Temp.]

I'm surprised that weapons are allowed to do half damage to all swarms. That's much more than I'd expect.

In the case of rats, bats, lizards or other larger animals, I have no disagreement. In the case of insects I'm not sure I like it at all. It doesn't make sense to me that swords and arrows would significantly damage a cloud of wasps. It also seems like it would reduce the desparation parties typically experience when they're reduced to swinging torches and throwing oil flasks at the things.

So if I ever DM 4th edition and feel inclined to throw in an insect swarm, I'll probably hork 3rd edition's full negation of weapon damage.

Beside that, I don't see anything objectionable.

[Jarlax]

am i missing something or are these stat blocks missing the "basic melee attack" described in swarm attack. as the only attacks i see are powers.

pull down as a minor action is a nasty power, that means on its turn the swarm makes a basic attack on anyone in its radius, performs pull down as a minor action, then uses its swarm of teeth, with a move action remaining to reposition itself.

as for stirges, they have a solid hide skill for lurking in a room if they beat the PCs perception scores.

i am also getting some excellent inspiration from the mummy and the mummy returns on how to deploy large numbers of swarms in a dramatic encounter, rather than a combat encounter.

[Cuddly]

I'm surprised that weapons are allowed to do half damage to all swarms. That's much more than I'd expect.

In the case of rats, bats, lizards or other larger animals, I have no disagreement. In the case of insects I'm not sure I like it at all. It doesn't make sense to me that swords and arrows would dignificantly damage a cloud of wasps. It also seems like it would reduce the desparation parties typically experience when they're reduced to swinging torches and throwing oil flasks at the things.

So if I ever DM 4th edition and feel inclined to throw in an insect swarm, I'll probably hork 3rd edition's full negation of weapon damage.

Beside that, I don't see anything objectionable.

The 3E swarm rules fell into the trap of simply trying to model reality as we know it, from movies, comics, or the real world. That might be a great move if you want to build a simulator, but it isn't so hot for a game.

If you need it spelled out for you:
non-casters can do stuff, too

[EvilElitest]

I'm surprised that weapons are allowed to do half damage to all swarms. That's much more than I'd expect.

In the case of rats, bats, lizards or other larger animals, I have no disagreement. In the case of insects I'm not sure I like it at all. It doesn't make sense to me that swords and arrows would dignificantly damage a cloud of wasps. It also seems like it would reduce the desparation parties typically experience when they're reduced to swinging torches and throwing oil flasks at the things.

So if I ever DM 4th edition and feel inclined to throw in an insect swarm, I'll probably hork 3rd edition's full negation of weapon damage.

Beside that, I don't see anything objectionable.

I think the deal with insect swarms is that they have more hit points, but your sword brings down a lot

The 3E swarm rules fell into the trap of simply trying to model reality as we know it, from movies, comics, or the real world. That might be a great move if you want to build a simulator, but it isn't so hot for a game.

If you need it spelled out for you:
non-casters can do stuff, too

Making a realistic game, if done well, doesn't have to limit the non casters. WotC just didn't handle 3E well
from
EE

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The 3E swarm rules fell into the trap of simply trying to model reality as we know it, from movies, comics, or the real world. That might be a great move if you want to build a simulator, but it isn't so hot for a game.

Why I won't be buyng 4.0.

[Temp.]

If you need it spelled out for you:
non-casters can do stuff, too

Oh, now I get it.Thank you for using small words that I can understand.

And I recognize that this is a problem. That doesn't mean that I don't find the concept of fighting off a cloud of insects with a stick to be objectionable. If I need to tweak the rules to make the game both work and make sense, I will. That's what DMs do. That doesn't mean I need to hold the non-casters' hands and tell them that the world keels over for them just for the sake of "giving them something to do." If they want to get rid of a swarm, I'll let them do so if the way they're trying to do it makes sense.

[Reel On, Love]

Why I won't be buyng 4.0.

Because... simulating reality as much as possible isn't it's primary priority?

(How do you manage to play 3E, then?)

[Cuddly]

Yeah, I'm sure that Temp.--who was clearly stating his own opinion (that it breaks INTUITIVE VERISIMILITUDE in some limited occasions, since it seems like it kind of does--if you jab a cloud of mosquitoes with a rapier, how much damage would you realistically expect to do?), and doing so in a way that doesn't imply anything is really wrong with the actual system, or that his opinion is THE ONE TRUTH ZOMGZ--deserves to be yelled at and then spoken down to patronizingly without his actual opinion being addressed beyond a flat "YOUR WRONG".

Well done.

No, the author was laying out that sometimes INTUITIVE VERISIMILITUDE has to be broken in order for the game to run as a game and not as a simulator. This sort of attitude has led to the quadratic caster and linear warrior.

[Cuddly]

Oh, now I get it.Thank you for using small words that I can understand.

And I recognize that this is a problem. That doesn't mean that I don't find the concept of fighting off a cloud of insects with a stick to be objectionable. If I need to tweak the rules to make the game both work and make sense, I will. That's what DMs do. That doesn't mean I need to hold the non-casters' hands and tell them that the world keels over for them just for the sake of "giving them something to do." If they want to get rid of a swarm, I'll let them do so if the way they're trying makes sense.

I stopped playing melee classes (unless they had a lot of spellcasting) because of DMs like you. And 3e really encouraged that sort of DMing.

[Falrin]

I'm rather enthousiastic about the panic-infusing attacks:

Being kept on the ground or losing hp/rouns can be quit scary, that's how I like my swarms.

We'll see how this plays out in game, the old swarms seemed to lack effectiveness prety quickly.

or am I the only one left commenting the swarm?

[The_Snark]

The 3E swarm rules fell into the trap of simply trying to model reality as we know it, from movies, comics, or the real world. That might be a great move if you want to build a simulator, but it isn't so hot for a game.

I both agree and disagree here. On the one hand, the 3e swarm rules can be annoying; it limits people who don't have area effects, like fighters, to handing potions to the useful people. If they're fortunate, they have a torch or lantern so that they can at least take actions, although they're not really going to impact much. If they're really lucky, their weapon has the flaming property, or something, so they can deal 1d6 damage per round. So in that sense, I totally agree with the 4e stance- reduce some of those immunities, and in return, make killing them much more urgent by having them deal more damage for their level.

But on the other hand, I simply hate the visual of a fighter charging at a swarm of wasps and killing it with his sword. And I'm sure it will be possible with a high-enough level fighter.

[Reel On, Love]

But on the other hand, I simply hate the visual of a fighter charging at a swarm of wasps and killing it with his sword. And I'm sure it will be possible with a high-enough level fighter.

He swings it so hard he rush of air in his sword's passage kills them.

[Edea]

Or he might knock the swarm out with the odor of his sweaty socks.

[illathid]

I think a bit of this discussion might be premature. We have yet to see any insect swarms and so we can't say we know exactly how they work. In fact given 4e exception based design, insect swarms could very well work differently than normal ones.

[Draz74]

am i missing something or are these stat blocks missing the "basic melee attack" described in swarm attack. as the only attacks i see are powers.

"Basic melee attack" means any power that has the sword-with-a-circle-around-it icon.

Attacks really are no different from at-will powers in most cases. And even if they are different, WotC is assuming "monsters will never use their mundane attacks if they could use a beneficial at-will ability instead," so many monsters have a "basic attack" with a special effect (like double damage vs. prone).

pull down as a minor action is a nasty power, that means on its turn the swarm makes a basic attack on anyone in its radius, performs pull down as a minor action, then uses its swarm of teeth, with a move action remaining to reposition itself.

Nasty yes indeed. Or actually, here's what it does on its turn:

• Reposition or Pulldown
• Pulldown
• Swarm of Teeth or Pulldown

Then, on everybody else's turn, it hits them with Swarm of Teeth if they start out within (or next to) it.

[FoE]

I think a bit of this discussion might be premature. We have yet to see any insect swarms and so we can't say we know exactly how they work. In fact given 4e exception based design, insect swarms could very well work differently than normal ones.

Thank you for making that point. In fairness, both of the examples given in this excerpt are for larger creatures; the drakes are described as "cat-sized." However, the examples given for swarms of insects may apply an exception to the "swarms take half-damage from melee attacks" rule.

On the other hand, 4E swarms seem to have high hit points — both the examples and the description of swarms indicates this — so the half-damage from melee attacks might not be that bad. And this "attack aura" ability ... if I'm reading it correctly, it looks like a 4E swarm can attack multiple characters so long as they are in an adjacent space, because they get a free action. So they definitely seem more lethal.

In the case of the needlefang drakes, the "pull down" ability seems to be a strategy of attack rather than a substitute for "distraction," since they effectively double their damage when an opponent is prone. Neat.

[Animefunkmaster]

I think a bit of this discussion might be premature. We have yet to see any insect swarms and so we can't say we know exactly how they work. In fact given 4e exception based design, insect swarms could very well work differently than normal ones.

Agreed. So far, what this shows me is that even though they say swarms are different they really aren't (Knocking down is pretty similar to distraction). There are some swarms in dnd that can be dealt damage with melee weapons. I imagine there will be some swarms where this won't be the case in 4e as well. Killing a swarm with a well placed arrow really seems weird to me.

[Khanderas]

Considering how in the flavor text, the author mentions how hounded they have been about people demanding they show how swarms work... they show so little.
I mean "swarms are big groups of small creatures, that you cant push or trip. oh and they take half damage from weapons (both melee and ranged)"

First of all that is really short and OH so obvious. Especially when they write about how anticipated this information is, they can't get away with such a bare description and two sample swarms.
Second of all, no difference between a "swarm" of 10 bats or a swarm of 10 million ants (one of those can be magic missiled down, but if you are trying to kill the soldier ant army with single target attacks you will be leaving nothing but bones).
Second and a half the point of a swarm should be that the swarm has too many members to reliably kill them by normal attacks. Half damage ? Well that just means you hit two more times. Whatever. That is not a swarm. That is a bunch of minions, only nonintelligent. The sewers are covered in rats, driven crazy by bloodlust. The fighter powerattacks and they all die.
Third they talk about the horror of swarms. Sure, I would panic quite a bit if I was in a room covered in bees, but where is the crunch, or even the hint of the fear factor crunch ?

This info I judge to be deficient and lacking. Thanks for bringing it here though, its the WoTC who should have known better.